Paddington derailment 16/06/16

[Bromley boy]

Honest question: does the job description/standard explicitly say that you have to be well nourished and hydrated?

Honest answer. The words "well nourished and hydrated" are not used in the job description, but were used in my DM interview.

The term "fit for duty" is used in the job description. This is a catch-all including being free from drugs/alcohol, well rested and otherwise fit to perform the role.

In the gents at my depot there is a urine colour chart on the wall to determine hydration level and warning posters to ensure you're well hydrated, well rested and have eaten enough.

I should have thought these requirements were obvious, and basic common sense.

 

[najaB]

I should have thought these requirements were obvious, and basic common sense.

Where employment and anti-discrimination law is concerned, obvious and common sense is trumped by what is actually in the signed contract.

 

[richw]

Or perhaps the TOC should temporarily remove the driver from duty if he is not fit to drive.

Or schedule early shifts so are working not long after the early am meal

 

[Poolie]

As an aside, how does the airline industry deal with this?

Or indeed any majority muslim country with public transport !

 

[GadgetMan]

I don't think the incident was down to fasting, it seems more like insufficient route knowledge.

 

[BestWestern]

Or indeed any majority muslim country with public transport !

Yes, that did come to mind! I was thinking perhaps the airline industry would be the closer comparison to UK raikway safety standards, however.

 

[Uzair]

I'm not sure if you're a driver or not. If you are, do you strictly observe the fast and, if so, how do you deal with maintaining concentration? Thanks.

Not a driver. The last few years I've worked in retail during Ramadan. I do not fast on work days due to the length of the fast and my work day. Concentration isn't an issue. Mainly energy levels.

 

[Phil.]

With all due respect, I haven't denied a single thing. As to where we're going, I was referring to the ridiculous headlines that the Daily Mail/Express etc are likely to come up with now. Being Muslim myself, I would rather see a blame on the individual as opposed to the religion itself.

Sorry old mate but the individual was sticking to his religion - not in itself a bad thing unless it results in what has happened. If his religion didn't demand fasting from sunrise to sunset at a time of the year of some seventeen hours he would have been refreshed and alert rather than tired and dehydrated which he undoubtedly was. I'm not and never have been anti Islam, I'm just anti anything that impairs the safe working of trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or perhaps the TOC should temporarily remove the driver from duty if he is not fit to drive.

Now there's a can of worms ready to be opened..........

 

[Bromley boy]

Where employment and anti-discrimination law is concerned, obvious and common sense is trumped by what is actually in the signed contract.

Im aware of that. But crashing a train due to being distracted through hunger/thirst probably qualifies as gross misconduct.

I'm unclear what your point is.

Honest questions:

- do you believe it's acceptable for a train driver to book on for duty while severely malnourished/dehydrated?;

- would you be happy to board a train driven by a driver who is severely dehydrated/malnourished?;

- would you be happy for your loved ones to do so?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I will stop short of offering my personal views on whether turning up work in that condition, for any reason, is ever acceptable, but the outcome of the investigations will be interesting to see.

Will there be further investigations? I believe the RAIB digest is final, and they said that they were unable to determine whether the driver's fasting was a factor.

 

[bramling]

Honest question: does the job description/standard explicitly say that you have to be well nourished and hydrated?

Probably not - certainly doesn't where I am. However drivers are generally required to declare themselves fit for duty when signing on. How one defines that is another matter, perhaps open to interpretation.

 

[Nippy]

I too am surprised we are too busy to implement the rule regarding clearing to a GPL. There is more to that than I'm prepared to say on here. A week after this SPAD we had another. The reason was we wanted to stop a train at a Main Aspect signal to advise they were going to GPL. The train passed the Main Aspect signal! The local rule has been rescinded now.

 

[bramling]

Will there be further investigations? I believe the RAIB digest is final, and they said that they were unable to determine whether the driver's fasting was a factor.

I would presume the TOC will have investigated, and given the time elapsed I suspect some form of conclusion would probably been reached now.

Were it to happen where I am, the driver would be interviewed initially, and then once the initial investigation is completed there would be a follow-up interview during which some form of action plan would be mutually agreed. This could include additional training or mentoring, but equally the driver may agree to make changes to their daily routine / lifestyle.

The latter can't be forced, but if the driver starts developing a history then the disciplinary route will come into play sooner or later. One still has to rely to some extent on the individual choosing to co-operate with the process, although monitoring helps enforce compliance.

Another option is of course the driver could decide that the vocation is no longer for them, and they could be supported into finding alternative roles within the company.

If I've read correctly it appears the driver offered the fasting as a potential contributory factor, one would suspect in response to questioning at interview. Factors such as health, diet and meals are certainly probed where I am, so somewhere along the line he's bound to have been asked something like "When was your last meal", which will likely have been followed up with "Did you feel well nourished?", and "Do you feel this may have been a factor?".

 

[Phil.]

Without meaning to venture off topic, what on earth are you talking about? Tell the bloke who was banged up on Merseyside that he wasn't safety critical :roll:

Anyhow, back in the real world... All operational railway staff are fully aware of the requirements of 'fitnesss for duty'. It is drummed in regularly. If somebody attended work in the afternoon and mentioned that they hadn't eaten anything all day, I would imagine that most managers would consider their fitness for duty to be in jepardy. It is on page one of an incident report form; 'When did you last have something to eat/drink'. I will stop short of offering my personal views on whether turning up work in that condition, for any reason, is ever acceptable, but the outcome of the investigations will be interesting to see.

As an aside, how does the airline industry deal with this?

I used to know a few airline pilots when I was at Gatwick. The usual answer was either they didn't fast on flying days and fasted an extra couple of days or the airline made sure that they were doing early flights.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I don't think the incident was down to fasting, it seems more like insufficient route knowledge.

I too thought that at first, but thinking about it more, the driver ignored the signal because he was convinced he was being signalled straight into Platform 1 and hadn't noticed that the previous train had not yet passed him on its way out of the station. That sounds like a lapse in concentration to me.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I wonder if he was over heated as he'd not had anything to drink - is there a way to tell if cab AC was running?

 

[ExRes]

So should the TOC *force* the driver to break his fast?

Well there's a thorny question

I have personal experience of the goldfish bowl otherwise known as an HST cab, during Project Rio we were expected to drive any old power car that could be rustled up, the majority of which were out of gas for the air con system. The vast majority of our TMs were on the ball and supplied us with water/tea/coffee whenever they could, but on the rare occasion we did a two/three hour session without liquid available you were struggling, by that I mean you were getting close to nodding off, so my personal opinion has to be that if you are deliberately going out there knowing that your ability is likely to be impaired then the TOC should definitely relieve you from duty, but then should they pay you for making yourself unfit for duty?, as for moving those choosing to fast onto light duties while others pick up all the crap, no way, if you make yourself unfit for duty you lose money or leave days

 

[matt_world2004]

I am not a defender of doing stupid **** for religion, but if the driver saw the signal and believed the signal was not for him that is not caused by hunger induced inattention, that is caused by lack of training.

However it is deeply disturbing there have been two serious accidents caused by driver inattention/training on GWR's networker trains in the last year. Maybe driver training and performance managment needs a serious review.

 

[Bromley boy]

I am not a defender of doing stupid **** for religion, but if the driver saw the signal and believed the signal was not for him that is not caused by hunger induced inattention, that is caused by lack of training.

As a qualified driver he would have been competent on the routes and traction he was driving. Indeed he would have signed a document confirming this.

Far be it for me to criticise a driver, but this event smacks more of inattention. Particularly so given it includes derailing at trap points at a low speed. If you miss the signal you can still see which way the blades are set.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

As a qualified driver he would have been competent on the routes and traction he was driving. Indeed he would have signed a document confirming this.

Far be it for me to criticise a driver, but this event smacks more of inattention.

Was it not also mentioned he had not driven that little bit of track since he'd been in training - apart from one other occasion

 

[bramling]

As a qualified driver he would have been competent on the routes and traction he was driving. Indeed he would have signed a document confirming this.

Far be it for me to criticise a driver, but this event smacks more of inattention. Particularly so given it includes derailing at trap points at a low speed. If you miss the signal you can still see which way the blades are set.

To be honest, it's one of those things we'll probably never know.

I would definitely say it was "possibly" a factor - no one can really say more or less than that.

I'd expect the manager dealing with the SPAD to ensure both potential factors are covered in any action plan. Naturally the signal sighting and SPAD history would also be looked at separately.

 

[Bromley boy]

To be honest, it's one of those things we'll probably never know.

I would definitely say it was "possibly" a factor - no one can really say more or less than that.

I'd expect the manager dealing with the SPAD to ensure both potential factors are covered in any action plan. Naturally the signal sighting and SPAD history would also be looked at separately.

Fully agree.

If, as you state above, he himself offered fasting as a mitigation/excuse, this must be fully investigated and dealt with.

It's an easy enough job to lose already. It's not acceptable for a driver to diminish the grade by booking on while unfit through fasting (or any other reason), and use religious practices as an excuse.

 

[bramling]

It's an easy enough job to lose already. It's not acceptable for a driver to diminish the grade by booking on while unfit through fasting (or any other reason), and use religious practices as an excuse.

Agreed.

It's difficult at times to manage the effects of tiredness and fatigue on shiftwork and train driving, without setting one's self up with other pitfalls.

I'd definitely say from experience there's more chance of making an error when tired, same when dehydrated or hungry. Some people can quite happily manage without food during the day if that's their normal lifestyle routine, a problem is more likely to arise if/when that person's normal routine is broken for another reason.

 

[richw]

As a qualified driver he would have been competent on the routes and traction he was driving. Indeed he would have signed a document confirming this.

Far be it for me to criticise a driver, but this event smacks more of inattention. Particularly so given it includes derailing at trap points at a low speed. If you miss the signal you can still see which way the blades are set.

I always assumed signing a route should be more than the alleged drove once during training and once since passing training.
I couldn't remember every detail of a road I drove my car over twice ever, let alone a train where more detail needs remembering as the car will stop a lot quicker than a train.

 

[Bromley boy]

I always assumed signing a route should be more than the alleged drove once during training and once since passing training.
I couldn't remember every detail of a road I drove my car over twice ever, let alone a train where more detail needs remembering as the car will stop a lot quicker than a train.

You assumed right!

Who alleged signing a route involved driving it once during training? Not the case, I can assure you.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Was it not also mentioned he had not driven that little bit of track since he'd been in training - apart from one other occasion

Wouldn't his signing of that track have therefore lapsed then?

 

[Bromley boy]

Was it not also mentioned he had not driven that little bit of track since he'd been in training - apart from one other occasion

Sorry missed this. If so, the onus was on him to raise it and renew competency...

I doubt he'd lost competency if he was driving in and out of Paddington on a daily basis?!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Wouldn't his signing of that track have therefore lapsed then?

Sorry missed this. If so, the onus was on him to raise it and renew competency...

I doubt he'd lost competency if he was driving in and out of Paddington on a daily basis?!

I'll answer both at the same time to save space... In the previously link article in the Evening Standard, this was that bit that raised my eyebrows.

The driver of the two-car Great Western train, which was not in passenger service, had only driven over the section of line during his training and on one further occasion since qualifying.

(my italics)

Would driving in and out of Paddington daily cover that little bit of track knowledge? If not, might he be in trouble for not saying this?

 

[D1009]

As far as I know, if a driver signs a route, it has to include all running lines, loops and sidings. It is his responsibility to be confident to drive a train over those lines, and as far as sidings are concerned, if he hasn't been over them for a long time, he usually should have time to refer to the relevant documentation to be able to move the train safely.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

As far as I know, if a driver signs a route, it has to include all running lines, loops and sidings. It is his responsibility to be confident to drive a train over those lines, and as far as sidings are concerned, if he hasn't been over them for a long time, he usually should have time to refer to the relevant documentation to be able to move the train safely.

That is what I thought