Pacers for ever

[Howardh]

In excess of 100mph in a straight line on tests of hauled two axle vehicles which is faster than the power units can propel a Pacer. Could your train have been exceeding the speed limit on a curve?

Between Bolton and Salford Crescent....so not much of a curve there at all. When (any) units are built, are they tested just to see how fast they could go before becoming unstable (bends or not) or are they just built to a specification (eg Max 100mph) and tested to that speed, maybe a tad above just to be safe??

 

[NotATrainspott]

Does 17 additional units constitute a "fleet of brand new trains"? Spin again.

(What, new trains again for London replacing units only 14 years old)

Your original post implied that they were replacing the entire C2C fleet with new trains despite the existing ones being only 14 years old, and tried to make the case that the South East is getting new trains that it absolutely does not need.

 

[route:oxford]

Serious question r/e pacers.
How fast can they go before they start to leave the tracks? Not the maximum speed of the engine (which must be around 70/80mph??) but the maximum when towed by a faster unit? Yesterday I was on a pacer pulled by a sprinter and it felt like we were gonna take off at any time!!

A Sprinter (Class 150) has a maximum speed of 75mph, which is the same as a Pacer (Class 142, 143 & 144).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Between Bolton and Salford Crescent....so not much of a curve there at all. When (any) units are built, are they tested just to see how fast they could go before becoming unstable (bends or not) or are they just built to a specification (eg Max 100mph) and tested to that speed, maybe a tad above just to be safe??

Was part of the route originally planned to use a canal bed, as there are some unusual stone overbridges ?
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Buses generally do short distances or don't provide the quickest journey e.g. for Manchester-Macclesfield the bus is much slower than the train but the bus is suitable for shorter journeys like Macclesfield-Wilmslow or Wilmslow-Cheadle which can't be sensibly done by train. A bus can also more easily drop off a passenger who's about to throw up, while on a train it could be some time before the sick passenger can alight so having toilets on trains which aren't all stops or have sections of line without any stops e.g. Sheffield-Lincoln is a good idea.

The 130 bus to which you allude does offer many useful bus stops at intermediate areas in-between the Manchester to Alderley Edge railway stations on the main line to Crewe, then carries onwards to its terminus at Macclesfield which is on the other local main line to Stoke-on-Trent and beyond.

 

[deltic08]

Your original post implied that they were replacing the entire C2C fleet with new trains despite the existing ones being only 14 years old, and tried to make the case that the South East is getting new trains that it absolutely does not need.

No, Stephen Hammond implied a fleet of brand new trains by not stating how many and as additions.

 

[Beveridges]

The official top speed of a Pacer is 75mph (same as a Sprinter) however they are capable of propelling themselves at much higher speeds than this. Whether it is safe or not is another matter altogether but they certainly have got the power.

 

[deltic08]

Between Bolton and Salford Crescent....so not much of a curve there at all. When (any) units are built, are they tested just to see how fast they could go before becoming unstable (bends or not) or are they just built to a specification (eg Max 100mph) and tested to that speed, maybe a tad above just to be safe??

Stock is usually tested to 10% above maximum design speed to allow for speedometer error. As Pacers were derived from two axle freight wagon experimenting to increase freight speeds from 60 to 90mph, testing exceeded 100mph (10% above)

Depending on curve radii, speed limits are set to stop flanges from climbing up the rail and derailing outwards. As examples, a radius of 750 yards has a speed limit of 55mph and 1,000 yard radius 70mph both with 9 inches cant.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

The Equality act is all very well and it is pushing towards the intended goals, but clearly it does come at a cost, especially if that cost means a complete replacement of a unit, it would seem to me that some infringements might be acceptable or working in conjunction with a another train which meets the requirements for a minority or trains

the DDA / EA have had some unintended consequences - bus inaccessibility for none wheel chair using peoplewith mobility problems is one as the ramp has outlawed a fixed hand rail in the centre in the entrance ...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No, Stephen Hammond implied a fleet of brand new trains by not stating how many and as additions.

I wonder if they're planning to build a total of 91 new 4 car units ( = present fleet size + 17 ) and move the 357s to either cover further electrification yet to be announced or to maybe cover the Cardiff Valleys instead of moving the 315s there...??

 

[NotATrainspott]

No, Stephen Hammond implied a fleet of brand new trains by not stating how many and as additions.

• Our current popular train fleet will be refurbished and upgraded through a significant investment programme.
• We will procure 68 brand new carriages, increasing capacity by over 4,500 extra seats a day to accommodate future growth in commuting. These will be introduced from 2019 onwards.

This is coming from National Express themselves.

I do admit though that the actual implementation of things can change slightly based upon future needs. If the business case for cascading away all the 357s and running a consistent single fleet of the new stock becomes better than the case for running the new stock alongside then this may well happen.

Even then, once upgraded and refurbished the 357s won't be intrinsically any better than any of the other stock that is being procured at the moment. They have air conditioning, they are capable of being entirely TSI-PRM compliant with ease, they have regenerative braking and are powered by AC overhead lines. If they ended up running on electrified Caldervale or Cardiff Valleys services I don't think anyone who used them would be complaining.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

This is coming from National Express themselves.

I do admit though that the actual implementation of things can change slightly based upon future needs. If the business case for cascading away all the 357s and running a consistent single fleet of the new stock becomes better than the case for running the new stock alongside then this may well happen.

Even then, once upgraded and refurbished the 357s won't be intrinsically any better than any of the other stock that is being procured at the moment. They have air conditioning, they are capable of being entirely TSI-PRM compliant with ease, they have regenerative braking and are powered by AC overhead lines. If they ended up running on electrified Caldervale or Cardiff Valleys services I don't think anyone who used them would be complaining.

If you've got two classes of stock in use unless they're the same generation of a family (Electrostar, Desiro, etc), you find yourself needing to keep double the number of spare parts (two generations might not necessarily use all the same spare parts).

 

[Domh245]

The sensible option for C2C would appear to be get the Aventra style body shell, with a 357 style cab end. But then it would require the existing fleet to get an upgrade in terms of software, just look at the 377/6s!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The sensible option for C2C would appear to be get the Aventra style body shell, with a 357 style cab end.

As the 17 new NXET trains aren't needed till 2019, the order will not be placed until about 2016.
Lots of time to sort out the design and the offerings from manufacturers.
However, that is also pretty much the timescale to order any new trains for TPE/NT, if we are talking about "tag-on" orders.

 

[47802]

The sensible option for C2C would appear to be get the Aventra style body shell, with a 357 style cab end. But then it would require the existing fleet to get an upgrade in terms of software, just look at the 377/6s!

I don't think there is anything sensible about that, Bombardier have stated the Aventra Control equipment which essentially what the 387's have, isn't compatible with earlier Electrostars except for emergency coupling. Why would you stick a 357 cab on an Aventra they are 2 substancially different trains designed in different era, for instance Aventra will have more welding of the bodyshell instead of Bolts which reduces weight and of course aims of the latest generation of units are to reduce weight and hence energy costs and improve reliability. I think the 377/6 are somewhere in between the latest Electrostar variant which Bombardier didn't really want to build as the systems had moved on but had no choice for compatibility, and on that basis I think you can conclude that your not going to get an Aventra which compatible with early Electrostars except maybe for emergency coupling.

Possibly they could build something similar to a 377/6 with or without a corridor connection in 2018 if the electrostar cab meets the 2017 crash regulations, and the TOC were desperate for compatible units, but I doubt Bombardier will be wanting to build Electrostars in 2018 having moved on to Aventra so I imagine any new train offered by Bombardier will be Aventra

 

[Domh245]

But then are there any fairly self-contained routes that would use 13-15 units? If there aren't then backwards compatibility would be a fairly major concern with the new units - particularly if you want a common fleet!

 

[47802]

While a single compatible fleet would be most desirable there are plenty of TOC that have to deal with more than one type of unit which are not compatible. And on the plus side the new fleet should be more energy efficient, more reliable than even the 357's and probably a more competitive bid.

I think if they were desperate for Electrostars they would be looking for a quick order on the back of the 387 order before Bombardier stop building them, or alternatively do some kind of future deal with Govia for some 377's while they get more 700's, but it does say brand new trains.

 

[deltic08]

This is coming from National Express themselves.

I do admit though that the actual implementation of things can change slightly based upon future needs. If the business case for cascading away all the 357s and running a consistent single fleet of the new stock becomes better than the case for running the new stock alongside then this may well happen.

Even then, once upgraded and refurbished the 357s won't be intrinsically any better than any of the other stock that is being procured at the moment. They have air conditioning, they are capable of being entirely TSI-PRM compliant with ease, they have regenerative braking and are powered by AC overhead lines. If they ended up running on electrified Caldervale or Cardiff Valleys services I don't think anyone who used them would be complaining.

Anybody who gets cascaded 357s would be very fortunate. That's why I suggested swapping them for 319s at Northern because we only have 25kv and no DC. 357s accelerate as well as 323s so that would allow transfer of 323s to Birmingham with Northern taking all 357s for future wiring to Chester, Harrogate, Sheffield, Windermere etc that would have to be brought forwards. Would the business case be good enough for a new fleet of 377s at 2C2?

 

[northwichcat]

Even then, once upgraded and refurbished the 357s won't be intrinsically any better than any of the other stock that is being procured at the moment. They have air conditioning, they are capable of being entirely TSI-PRM compliant with ease, they have regenerative braking and are powered by AC overhead lines. If they ended up running on electrified Caldervale or Cardiff Valleys services I don't think anyone who used them would be complaining.

You say that but people complain about seating on the refurbished 150s at Northern which were fitted with the same seats as the 357s. Although if the 357s have more leg room that would reduce the level of complaining. While switching services from 2+2 seating to 3+2 seating doesn't generally go down well - look what happened when SWT and LM did that.

 

[deltic08]

Near riot tonight at Leeds. Rammed single Class 150 on 2128 to Harrogate and Knaresborough left leaving 100 passengers on the platform. Surely 12,000 attending Le Tour Opening celebrations in Leeds Arena should have rung bells with Northern. This was the last train to Knaresborough. **** ups and breweries again. Even a Pacer would have been better than being left.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Near riot tonight at Leeds. Rammed single Class 150 on 2128 to Harrogate and Knaresborough left leaving 100 passengers on the platform. Surely 12,000 attending Le Tour Opening celebrations in Leeds Arena should have rung bells with Northern. This was the last train to Knaresborough. **** ups and breweries again. Even a Pacer would have been better than being left.

You can imagine the scenario in the higher echelons of management at Northern Rail when the dedicated "lower ranks" endeavour to pass warning on what might have occurred in the evening...

"What is this rubbish you are trying to tell me...Tour de France opening celebrations in Leeds tonight...Don't make me laugh...Do you think I was born yesterday...Get Neville Hill to send down that 150 for the 2128 Harrogate job and don't bother me again"

 

[BantamMenace]

The sooner the Harrogate line is brought up to the standard of the Airedale and wharfedale lines the better.

-electrification
-signalling
-rolling stock
-service frequency

Always thought the Harrogate line was short changed in the Leeds NW electrification.

 

[deltic08]

The next train to Harrogate, 2238, 2x153 units equally rammed leaving Leeds.

All advertising asked the audience to use public transport and then Northern couldn't step up the job. I wouldn't even consider them for the next franchise bid.

 

[BantamMenace]

I'm sure I've read somewhere on here that they've confirmed they won't be running for it next time round anyway

 

[Harpers Tate]

Northern are "throwing everything they have got" at services in this area this weekend. This means, for example, that those who wish to witness the finish on Sunday (in the Meadowhall area) and who are wanting to travel from stations Retford, Worksop, Shireoaks, Kiveton Park, Kiveton Bridge, and Woodhouse have their first train of the day arriving in Sheffield (according to NRE Journey Planner) at......

1636.

(I left out Darnall - it's walkable from there).

Good grief!

 

[deltic08]

I'm sure I've read somewhere on here that they've confirmed they won't be running for it next time round anyway

Not jointly but I read somewhere Serco and Abellio were bidding separately for Northern/TPE

 

[northwichcat]

Northern are "throwing everything they have got" at services in this area this weekend.

I hope it doesn't mean they leave other areas short though because there are things on other than Le Tour De France, even though that is the biggest event on the network. For instance, Delamere Forest are doing their annual Forest Live gigs today, tomorrow and Sunday.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The railway companies can't be trusted to run the railway properly so the DoT and its civil servants, who know little about running a railway, have to micro-manage. They in turn are watched over by a bunch of inept politicians. What really makes me laugh is that people will flock to the polling booths come election day next year and vote for 5 more years of the same.

The only way you'll ever make a difference is by refusing to vote. When the politicians have no mandate they'll get worried about revolution and will have to sit up and listen.

If everyone voted UKIP, irregardless what you think of them we could end up with a fleet of new trains and one company running them, that is Brisith Rail mk2.

 

[CalderRail]

The official top speed of a Pacer is 75mph (same as a Sprinter) however they are capable of propelling themselves at much higher speeds than this. Whether it is safe or not is another matter altogether but they certainly have got the power.

It's debatable if Pacers are safe at *any* speed.

 

[northwichcat]

It's debatable if Pacers are safe at *any* speed.

An RAIB report in the Durham incident found they were less safe accelerating at low speeds, than cruising at 60+mph.
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If everyone voted UKIP, irregardless what you think of them we could end up with a fleet of new trains and one company running them, that is Brisith Rail mk2.

And they might award a Railbus contract to Optare, then go on about how under a Conservative government the trains would have been built by Siemens in Munich.

 

[4SRKT]

The sooner the Harrogate line is brought up to the standard of the Airedale and wharfedale lines the better.

-electrification
-signalling
-rolling stock
-service frequency

Always thought the Harrogate line was short changed in the Leeds NW electrification.

The Leeds NW electrification was a PTE thing to a large extent. Skipton gets wires because it's operationally sensible for the Aire Valley trains to terminate there.

I would have thought the blue rinse biddiocracy in Harrogate would have enough political clout to get this sorted though if they wanted to put their minds to it.
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Near riot tonight at Leeds. Rammed single Class 150 on 2128 to Harrogate and Knaresborough left leaving 100 passengers on the platform. Surely 12,000 attending Le Tour Opening celebrations in Leeds Arena should have rung bells with Northern. This was the last train to Knaresborough. **** ups and breweries again. Even a Pacer would have been better than being left.

Trains after the service goes hourly are always 2 cars AFAICS, and always wedged. Why on earth do Northern persist with this? They're hardly short of stock at that time.