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Pacers for ever

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61653 HTAFC

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A mixed fleet on North TPE is a non-starter, for the simple reason that so much has been made of the rise 4, then 5, and soon 6 trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds. As a general rule, passengers at Huddersfield heading to Leeds or Manchester don't bother to aim for a particular service- they just turn up and go (the new Liverpool being a slight exception as it serves Victoria).

If some trains had end doors and some had mid-carriage doors, it would be quite a task to ensure that the right stock was on the right services- and any changes due to a failure would wreak havoc with a very intensive timetable!

I do wonder if one of the big advantages of electrification might well be the speeding up of the HUD-LDS stopper once it goes over to EMUs. At the moment, Leeds passengers at Huddersfield (and vice-versa) avoid the stoppers like the plague*, even if a 158 is provided!

*Coming home from Leeds, I often go for the stopper simply to be certain of getting a seat. 45mins vice 20 isn't a major problem for me, but it seems to be for most!
 
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47802

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There is no guarantee that new electric trains will be ordered for TPE and even if they are they might need to be add-on to another operator's order or another operator may add-on to TPE's order.

Well the way I read the consultation document where it talks about Train Procurement suggests new trains to me.

What realistic other options are there apart from the first batch of 387's, and I doubt that would be enough especially to get rid of the 350's back to LM as well, and the second batch of 387's is supposedly being ordered for Gatwick, highly upgraded 319's perhaps carn't see that going down well plus not much good for getting rid of the 350's
 

northwichcat

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A mixed fleet on North TPE is a non-starter, for the simple reason that so much has been made of the rise 4, then 5, and soon 6 trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds. As a general rule, passengers at Huddersfield heading to Leeds or Manchester don't bother to aim for a particular service- they just turn up and go (the new Liverpool being a slight exception as it serves Victoria).

That only applies if they are actually going to Leeds/Manchester and not changing to another train at Leeds/Manchester. If they are connecting to another train they'll probably use which one a journey planner tells them to - or the one before if they want to be on the safe side.

When it goes to 6tph passengers will probably care more about which train they catch. It's possible some of the semi-fasts will get overtaken, while if they need a connecting train it will depend which station it departs from.

There may be no option but a mixed fleet for North TPE if Hull doesn't get electrified by December 18 or if the next franchise operator wishes to retain some through services to Middlesbrough and/or Scarborough, the consultation asks whether any through services such be retained and if applicable how many should be retained.

I do wonder if one of the big advantages of electrification might well be the speeding up of the HUD-LDS stopper once it goes over to EMUs. At the moment, Leeds passengers at Huddersfield (and vice-versa) avoid the stoppers like the plague*, even if a 158 is provided!

*Coming home from Leeds, I often go for the stopper simply to be certain of getting a seat. 45mins vice 20 isn't a major problem for me, but it seems to be for most!

Well that's because passengers are effectively told not to use them. The services are advertised as Bramley/Bradford Interchange at Huddersfield and as Deighton/Brighouse at Leeds. Journey Planners don't show them as they are overtaken (unless you specifically ask for overtaken services to be displayed.) Posters at Huddersfield station say something like "Travelling to Leeds? Then catch the trains bound for Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Scarborough, Hull and York."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well the way I read the consultation document where it talks about Train Procurement suggests new trains to me.

DfT said:
The Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-York/Selby trans-Pennine route will be fully electrified by the end of 2018 which will enable the introduction of electric rolling stock, new service patterns and some journey time improvements. This electrification is to take place in stages between 2016 and 2018.
...
The new franchisees will be expected to undertake work jointly with Network Rail on a number of areas, including:
...
* Introduction of electric train fleets on North West and North TransPennine, and other routes to be electrified
...
For both the TPE and Northern franchises, North West electrification will mean the introduction of electric trains on certain services. These trains are more reliable, may have more carriages, and allow faster journeys.
...
Rail North has commissioned work to advise on alternative procurement and financing mechanisms for rolling stock for both franchises, focusing on identifying options which may enable new and/or refurbished rolling stock to be provided at lower cost than under current arrangements.

I can't see where it guarantees new trains, just faster services and more carriages as a result of the switch to EMUs.
 

NotATrainspott

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I can't see where it guarantees new trains, just faster services and more carriages as a result of the switch to EMUs.

I see TPX as being likely to get new stock as there aren't a vast number of sensible cascades other than the 387s, whose dual-voltage capability and similarity to the thousands of other carriages in the NSE area means that they really should be kept around London. The 3/4x23m EMUs being ordered for ScotRail would be an ideal design for TPX if bi-mode capability were no longer to be required in the new franchise.
 

47802

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One wonders if could throw a few PPM's into the mix, They show plans for a bigger bogie based unit, but course the current one doesn't meet Group Railway standards which limits it to branch lines which can be locked off.

Could you make one that's meet's group Railway standards that isn't too heavy and costly, and isn't that also a potential issue for Tram Trains.

The Ideal Train would actually be a new 143/4 with bogies and without the step, but could you make one that could meet all the regs and was significantly cheaper than a 172 for instance, and OK yes I know the 172 isn't actually compliant engine wise now.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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That only applies if they are actually going to Leeds/Manchester and not changing to another train at Leeds/Manchester. If they are connecting to another train they'll probably use which one a journey planner tells them to - or the one before if they want to be on the safe side.

When it goes to 6tph passengers will probably care more about which train they catch. It's possible some of the semi-fasts will get overtaken, while if they need a connecting train it will depend which station it departs from.

I'd hazard a guess that the majority of passengers getting on Eastbound TPE services at Huddersfield will be getting off in Leeds, whether that be their destination or if they're catching a connecting service. If they are travelling further and booked online, they most likely won't have considered what type of train it will be, as much as that seems strange to members of these forums! :oops:

A significant number though, will be heading to the shops in Leeds with a DayRover or an ordinary walk-up ticket. It seems to be this group that might reduce the strain on the TPE services if they could be persuaded to take the stoppers. If Northern ends up with a few EMUs to the standard of say the 318s, the Leeds-Huddersfield stoppers might see a fair few more end-to-end passengers- Unlike the HUD-MCV stopper, they will most likely stay.

As I understand it, the 'semi-fasts' East of Huddersfield will most likely only serve Dewsbury (at 2tph, the same as today). It's to the West of HUD that there's more capacity issues which lead to the all-shacks stopper being withdrawn. I do think that a fair few passengers will avoid the semi-fasts heading West, though that could well be balanced by a fair few that currently baulk at getting a Merseytravel 142 but will go for a slightly faster 185/170.


There may be no option but a mixed fleet for North TPE if Hull doesn't get electrified by December 18 or if the next franchise operator wishes to retain some through services to Middlesbrough and/or Scarborough, the consultation asks whether any through services such be retained and if applicable how many should be retained.

A mixed fleet during the transition from diesel to electric is unavoidable (it may be slightly less mixed if the 170s do go South!), but in the long(er) term electrification to Hull is very likely.
Scarborough was originally planned to transfer to Northern as an extension of the Copy Pit service, though as I understand it the ITT for both new franchises leaves this to be decided. I'd argue that the Copy Pit extension is the 'least-worst' option- and would see mainly 158s or possibly even cascaded Turbostars in the longer term, which many passengers would probably see as an improvement!
Middlesbrough is a bit more tricky, but with bi-mode IEP coming, trading 1tph to Leeds & Manchester for 1tp2h to London (perhaps an extension of the current York terminators- though the timetable is likely to be quite altered once the 800/801s are in squadron service) doesn't sound too bad- particularly if a semi-fast (current TPE stops) DMU shuttle to York could run in the other hours. There's also the possibility of diverting CrossCountry's Newcastle services.



Well that's because passengers are effectively told not to use them. The services are advertised as Bramley/Bradford Interchange at Huddersfield and as Deighton/Brighouse at Leeds. Journey Planners don't show them as they are overtaken (unless you specifically ask for overtaken services to be displayed.) Posters at Huddersfield station say something like "Travelling to Leeds? Then catch the trains bound for Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Scarborough, Hull and York."

That must be a new feature (perhaps since the recent timetable change?) for the services via Dewsbury, as I've not noticed it. The via Bradfords have always been advertised at both ends as serving the penultimate stop- though in the last 18months or so they've been advertised at HUD as Bradford rather than Bramley.
 

Wavertreelad

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Back on thread topic, could the problem with toilets be resolved by simply removing them? Is there any requirement for a train to have one when the new regulations come into force?

Assuming the toilet is removed, could the space then be used to provide a disabled lift with a "platform" that folded away behind a dedicated door operated by the guard only as when required to aid a disabled passenger. Alternatively replacing one of the existing doors with a platform lift might be another consideration and avoid the need to open up a new door in the body shell. Obviously there would need to be one disabled access on either side of the 142units which would probably favour the latter arrangement. Providing the units were only used on relatively short rural services were overcrowding was not a major problem the loss of just a couple of seats might be manageable whilst the lift approach might deter the units use on services were there was a high density of services.
 

yorksrob

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Back on thread topic, could the problem with toilets be resolved by simply removing them? Is there any requirement for a train to have one when the new regulations come into force?

If they adopted this as a"solution" it would be proof that the lunatics really had taken over the asylum.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Back on thread topic, could the problem with toilets be resolved by simply removing them? Is there any requirement for a train to have one when the new regulations come into force?

Assuming the toilet is removed, could the space then be used to provide a disabled lift with a "platform" that folded away behind a dedicated door operated by the guard only as when required to aid a disabled passenger. Alternatively replacing one of the existing doors with a platform lift might be another consideration and avoid the need to open up a new door in the body shell. Obviously there would need to be one disabled access on either side of the 142units which would probably favour the latter arrangement. Providing the units were only used on relatively short rural services were overcrowding was not a major problem the loss of just a couple of seats might be manageable whilst the lift approach might deter the units use on services were there was a high density of services.

Sorry about the off-topic! :oops: I did have a point about Pacers but it got lost somewhere!

Removing the toilets is an option AIUI, though I'm not sure if the ROSCOs/TOCs/'Rail North' have entertained it!

The proposal by Porterbrook to make 143s/144s compliant seemed to be suggesting the 2-car units as replacements for 153s. I could see units without toilets only being acceptable on a handful of routes currently operated with single dogboxes. Huddersfield to Wakefield would be fine, as would Ormskirk-Preston (at a push) and Wigan-Kirkby (as that is proposed to run mainly as a shuttle in the future). Routes like the Heart of Wales line and Nottingham-Skegness though, I can't see toiletless units being acceptable on. Looe Valley/St. Ives in the off-season/Gunnislake shuttle if Tavistock gets re-opened would be short enough to do without toilets, but the Cornish branches have other issues that make Pacers a problem- in the way of gradients and tight bends.
 

Wavertreelad

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If they adopted this as a"solution" it would be proof that the lunatics really had taken over the asylum.

It might sound a daft solution, but the simple fact is if the legislation only applies if the unit is fitted with a toilet, then the legislation cannot apply if it is not fitted.

In any event how many buses, not coaches, are fitted with toilets or have bus stops fitted with them? The legislation I suspect applies to all modes of transport.

Problem solved Prime Minister.
 

yorksrob

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It might sound a daft solution, but the simple fact is if the legislation only applies if the unit is fitted with a toilet, then the legislation cannot apply if it is not fitted.

In any event how many buses, not coaches, are fitted with toilets or have bus stops fitted with them? The legislation I suspect applies to all modes of transport.

Problem solved Prime Minister.

Well, it says more about the state of this country.

Some of the people are inconvenienced. We can't have that so we'll inconvenience all of the people.

Sometimes I wonder whether it would be better if they decided to have a few years out of making legislation.
 
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It might sound a daft solution, but the simple fact is if the legislation only applies if the unit is fitted with a toilet, then the legislation cannot apply if it is not fitted.

In any event how many buses, not coaches, are fitted with toilets or have bus stops fitted with them? The legislation I suspect applies to all modes of transport.

Problem solved Prime Minister.

Bladders have certainly improved since Victorian days, enabling many public toilets to be closed. Or are we planting more trees?
In Blackpool there are many 'unofficial loos' :(
Good job disabled people don't suffer from a weak bladder!
The nearest toilet to Blackpool South train is a 12 minute round trip, 1 cubical costing 20p. Choice is the loo on the Pacer, or......
 

Beveridges

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It is comical how people go on about disabled accessible toilets. Most Pacer services are so overcrowded that even normal passengers can't even get to the toilets, never mind the disabled ones!
 

Harpers Tate

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Well, it says more about the state of this country.

Some of the people are inconvenienced. We can't have that so we'll inconvenience all of the people.

Sometimes I wonder whether it would be better if they decided to have a few years out of making legislation.
This.

We have a similar situation where a footbridge is wanted at a station that doesn't have one. Most pax, for the larger direction/destination, have to use a level crossing which closes at least 5 minutes before departure to allow the incoming train to arrive. People miss trains as a consequence and a bridge is generally acknowledged as a requirement here.

We could afford a simple footbridge with steps. But a DDA one with ramps costs twice as much. So - no budget and thus no footbridge.

We can't possibly discriminate against what in reality is a miniscule proportion of the users. So instead we do nothing. The idiocy here is that the miniscule proportion are NO BETTER OFF as a consequence of this process; they still have no footbridge they can use.
 
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northwichcat

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Back on thread topic, could the problem with toilets be resolved by simply removing them? Is there any requirement for a train to have one when the new regulations come into force?

Not really. Meeting the Equalities Act means no-one should be discriminated against due to disability, gender, age etc. As an example, removing all the seats and marking out 10 wheelchair bays would not result in a complaint unit as some disabled people don't have wheelchairs and can't stand. Not having toilet facilities (either at the station or on the train) at all discriminates against people with medical problems such as diabetes, unless you are only providing a frequent Metro style service.
 

fowler9

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Not really. Meeting the Equalities Act means no-one should be discriminated against due to disability, gender, age etc. As an example, removing all the seats and marking out 10 wheelchair bays would not result in a complaint unit as some disabled people don't have wheelchairs and can't stand. Not having toilet facilities (either at the station or on the train) at all discriminates against people with medical problems such as diabetes, unless you are only providing a frequent Metro style service.

Who decides what is a frequent metro style service? (Especially when most of the stations don't have a toilet (Merseyrail Northern and Wirral lines)).
 

Wavertreelad

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Who decides what is a frequent metro style service? (Especially when most of the stations don't have a toilet (Merseyrail Northern and Wirral lines)).

Exactly, and aren't the 313's also toiletless and are these all employed on metro style services? And another thought, would a compliant unit of any description with a non-functioning toilet need to be taken out of service, or would the toilet be locked out of use?

For the record, the question was posed rather more tongue in cheek rather than as a genuine solution to the problem more to demonstrate the different ways a regulation could be interpreted.

Still no sightings of a bus with a toilet though!
 

fowler9

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Exactly, and aren't the 313's also toiletless and are these all employed on metro style services? And another thought, would a compliant unit of any description with a non-functioning toilet need to be taken out of service, or would the toilet be locked out of use?

For the record, the question was posed rather more tongue in cheek rather than as a genuine solution to the problem more to demonstrate the different ways a regulation could be interpreted.

Still no sightings of a bus with a toilet though!

Hey mate I'm not arguing with you, more commenting as someone getting older with a weaker bladder who used the Wirral and Northern lines today.
 

deltic08

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The solution to the non compliant Pacer is more electrification. Stephen Hammond announced when awarding a new contract to 2C2 today that there will be a fleet of not just new trains but brand new trains. (What, new trains again for London replacing units only 14 years old) What will happen to the 357s? Send them North in exchange for dual voltage 319s that Londoners still want and think highly of. Please.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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The solution to the non compliant Pacer is more electrification. Stephen Hammond announced when awarding a new contract to 2C2 today that there will be a fleet of not just new trains but brand new trains. (What, new trains again for London replacing units only 14 years old) What will happen to the 357s? Send them North in exchange for dual voltage 319s that Londoners still want and think highly of. Please.

Well said. You voice my feelings exactly. Matters such as this announcement are the very reason why certain items of news rankle up here in "The Land of Newton Heath's Finest"...<(
 

Emblematic

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17 new trains. Only additions, no replacements. Another follow-on order for Bombadier, at a guess.
 

NotATrainspott

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The solution to the non compliant Pacer is more electrification. Stephen Hammond announced when awarding a new contract to 2C2 today that there will be a fleet of not just new trains but brand new trains. (What, new trains again for London replacing units only 14 years old) What will happen to the 357s? Send them North in exchange for dual voltage 319s that Londoners still want and think highly of. Please.

The 17 new 4 carriage trains they're getting are in addition to what they have already, not replacements.
 

Wavertreelad

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Hey mate I'm not arguing with you, more commenting as someone getting older with a weaker bladder who used the Wirral and Northern lines today.

Sorry, my comment wasn't meant to be argumentative at you or anybody with a weakened bladder or disability, I was merely picking up on your point that it is not only Merseyrail Northern and Wirral lines that operate toiletless stock.

Of course in an ideal world all stations and/or rolling stock should be equipped with toilet facilities for all, but in the real world it's not going to happen because of the cost of maintaining it. You only have to look around our city centres nowadays to try and find a public toilet and like telephone boxes and more recently mail boxes they are few and far between because when they are provided there are certain elements of the great British public that abuse them further increasing the cost of maintenance. Bus, taxi and car passengers also have no option, so take preventative measures before they journey, so provided the 142's are not used on long journeys is there a problem if the toilets were removed if rail passenger did the same?

As suggested earlier today, more electrification will see off the majority of pacers anyway eventually, whether this is before 2020 is another matter. The decision for the ROSCO's that own them is can they find suitable employment for the units post 2020 that would enable them to recover the cost of installing lifts or other boarding equipment in the remaining life of the units, given that any modification work would probably not be taken until the new franchises are decided.
 

northwichcat

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Still no sightings of a bus with a toilet though!

Coaches generally have toilets though.

Buses generally do short distances or don't provide the quickest journey e.g. for Manchester-Macclesfield the bus is much slower than the train but the bus is suitable for shorter journeys like Macclesfield-Wilmslow or Wilmslow-Cheadle which can't be sensibly done by train. A bus can also more easily drop off a passenger who's about to throw up, while on a train it could be some time before the sick passenger can alight so having toilets on trains which aren't all stops or have sections of line without any stops e.g. Sheffield-Lincoln is a good idea.
 

ExRes

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The solution to the non compliant Pacer is more electrification. Stephen Hammond announced when awarding a new contract to 2C2 today that there will be a fleet of not just new trains but brand new trains. (What, new trains again for London replacing units only 14 years old) What will happen to the 357s? Send them North in exchange for dual voltage 319s that Londoners still want and think highly of. Please.

Am I right in thinking that these new trains are suppose to have interoperability with Crossrail ? if that is the case then surely there isn't much choice other than to replace what is currently in use with C2C

Personally I have absolutely no idea what C2C do or what units they operate, but if it releases 357s then jolly good show, send them wherever they're needed, which is exactly what's happening with 319s
 

Wavertreelad

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Coaches generally have toilets though.

Buses generally do short distances or don't provide the quickest journey e.g. for Manchester-Macclesfield the bus is much slower than the train but the bus is suitable for shorter journeys like Macclesfield-Wilmslow or Wilmslow-Cheadle which can't be sensibly done by train. A bus can also more easily drop off a passenger who's about to throw up, while on a train it could be some time before the sick passenger can alight so having toilets on trains which aren't all stops or have sections of line without any stops e.g. Sheffield-Lincoln is a good idea.

Totally agree coaches generally have toilets, but then so do pubs, some shops and supermarkets, but none are buses or pacers.

The Manchester (Piccadilly) to Macclesfield is about 21 miles (google maps) and would take about 45 minutes off peak by car so probably an hour and a half by bus neither with a toilet, whilst a train takes about 20 minutes with a toilet. Macclesfield to Wilmslow is about 9 miles, 18/20 minutes in a car, the 79 bus from Liverpool1 to Halewood is timed for about 53 minutes for a distance of about 8 miles, whilst Liverpool1 to Southport is also 21 miles, and takes about 45 minutes by car, one hour by bus and Merseyrail all with no toilets but with plenty of stops or potential stops.

Whilst not ideal, perhaps the solution is to remove the toilets, fit disabled boarding gear, and only operate them on services with relatively frequent stops or attached to a 156 or 150. during peak.
 

Howardh

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Serious question r/e pacers.
How fast can they go before they start to leave the tracks? Not the maximum speed of the engine (which must be around 70/80mph??) but the maximum when towed by a faster unit? Yesterday I was on a pacer pulled by a sprinter and it felt like we were gonna take off at any time!!
 

deltic08

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Serious question r/e pacers.
How fast can they go before they start to leave the tracks? Not the maximum speed of the engine (which must be around 70/80mph??) but the maximum when towed by a faster unit? Yesterday I was on a pacer pulled by a sprinter and it felt like we were gonna take off at any time!!

In excess of 100mph in a straight line on tests of hauled two axle vehicles which is faster than the power units can propel a Pacer. Could your train have been exceeding the speed limit on a curve?
 
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