Pacers for ever

[deltic08]

Can't find a thread on Pacers but you will be pleased to know that the DfT has **** on the North again by approving DDA compliant conversion of half the Pacer fleet and running with a non compliant unit as a pair beyond 2020. The new Northern TOC will have to account for this in the bid. Pacers could be around for another 20 years. Could this mean a slowdown in electrification in the North/Northeast?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am interested in how Angel Trains (Class 142) and Porterbrook (Classes 143 and 144) will react to this news.

 

[AM9]

I am interested in how Angel Trains (Class 142) and Porterbrook (Classes 143 and 144) will react to this news.

Well Porterbrook might say that if you find the 319s so inadequate, then we'd better offer compliant pacers for CP6.

 

[deltic08]

I am interested in how Angel Trains (Class 142) and Porterbrook (Classes 143 and 144) will react to this news.

Angel has publicly stated it was not interested but may be willing to supply the non compliant Pacer. What will happen to the Pacers in Wales and Southwest TOCS I wonder?

There is no reason why a compliant 15xx cannot run with a non compliant Pacer and vice versa now a precedence has been set.

 

[Moonshot]

I heard about this a while ago.....though the story I heard was that Pacers were to be permanently made into 4 car units and the redundant cabs in each one were to be converted into disabled loos.

Wasnt so sure what to make of it at the time....but in any event isnt this just another example of the state micro managing the industry ?

 

[kermit]

Does any other modern European railway have anything as bad as these ill-conceived units?

We should build a bonfire and put them on it, not consider extending the misery that they cause still further!

 

[Rapidash]

I'd be amazed if ours last untill Christmas. The holes in the ceilings grow ever larger, and the electrics ever more degraded.

Wouldn't be against 4 car units being the norm, though!

 

[Harpers Tate]

What next? Pantographs so they can work on the proposed new HS3 route from Leeds to Manchester, I suppose.

 

[IanXC]

Is anyone able to provide a source for this?

 

[Parallel]

If Pacers are going to be allowed to be used after 2020, I can see the ones in Wales staying until at least the electrification of the valley lines is complete. I think the plan is for that to happen in around 2019 but these things get delayed. Porterbook have plans for refurbishments of their 143s and 144s so these would probably be the compliant units. I can see them surviving on the FGW network too - Maybe they'll be used around Bristol again when Devon and Cornwall get extra stock from the west after the electrification of the Thames Valley. Either way you don't want them working very far away from a depot in case they break down So perhaps they'll return to the Severn Beach line or Weston Super Mare - Bristol Parkway.

They'll quite obviously need some extensive refurbishments however if they are going to be used for at least another ten years. Although I'm no Pacer fan, I'm glad of this decision because it seems crazy that stock was going to be written off when we have such overcrowding in various parts of the UK. - They get people from A to B in no glamorous way but a disabled toilet in one of the cabs is also a good idea.

 

[yorksrob]

I

They'll quite obviously need some extensive refurbishments however if they are going to be used for at least another ten years. Although I'm no Pacer fan, I'm glad of this decision because it seems crazy that stock was going to be written off when we have such overcrowding in various parts of the UK. - They get people from A to B in no glamorous way but a disabled toilet in one of the cabs is also a good idea.

A very sensible point. Hopefully it will be the 143's and 144's that are life extended as they are fairly decent trains.

 

[CalderRail]

Is anyone able to provide a source for this?

I got it from the RailFuture Rail User Express Newsletter, which apparently gets it from an MCRUA newsletter, which in turn claims it's source as the Northern Rail Direct Award

The Direct Award of a franchise extension to the current operator of Northern Rail includes provision for life-extension work on the class 142 Pacers and the Dept. for Transport is considering the retention of these trains beyond the 1st January 2020 deadline for disabled access by coupling them to trains which do comply with DDA legislation. – from MCRUA’s newsletter

Obviously, this is bad news.

Pacer Delenda Est

 

[Stats]

And which since then the DfT have issued a prospectus for potential Northern Rail bidders which states

Bidders will particularly need to consider the future of the four-wheeled ‘Pacers’ built between 1985 and 1987. From a design perspective, they are difficult to make compliant but we understand that the rolling stock industry has developed practical plans for suitable modifications which achieve this. These vehicles are the least costly to lease but are unpopular with many passengers. We are likely to require bidders to include plans, either in their core proposition or as an option, which would enable the withdrawal of all Pacer units from Northern services.

(my emphasis)

 

[47802]

But yet there is an option to get of them in the consultation document for Northern, although one wonders what you would actually get rid of them with. I think the key word in there is 'Option'

I think it will be a case of relying on electrification to get rid of the 142's and the 143/144 may well be made compliant.

 

[andyb2706]

I can't believe this news!! I was longing for the day to wave bye bye to these units. What is going to be the cost to bring the units up to DDA compliant?

Also what about the step you have at the doors, what are they going to do about them because in this day and age punctuality is the measurement of a TOC success and unless the step is got rid of at unmanned stations it is up to the guard to deploy the ramp with no dwell time built in for this and under DDA access is supposed to be from any station. Sorry just slightly annoyed as I thought it was the final days of a 30+ year old unit that no ine wanted when they were first introduced. :-x

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think it's a complete surprise. The electrification schemes aren't progressing at a rate where the Pacers can be replaced before the end of 2019 without a new DMU order. I do think the best option would be to order new dual powered (diesel + electric) vehicles for routes which have a high proportion of running under the wires, which can then be cascaded to other routes when the routes become 100% electric. If the new TPE franchise includes a Liverpool-Nottingham route and a Liverpool-Sheffield-Hull route then it would be a good franchise to have dual powered stock. XC would be another.
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What is going to be the cost to bring the units up to DDA compliant?

Well the cost is more than the financial figure. Porterbrook's plans for 143s and 144s would reduce the 2 car sets to having around 80 seats. This would make them even more unsuitable for some of their current services.

Also it's worth noting that even Porterbrook's plan would require exemption orders to be granted, but exemption orders for minor infringements rather than major infringements.

 

[Stats]

And this morning the Chancellor has said

So bidders for the franchise will be asked to include options to get rid of outdated ‘railbus’ or ‘pacer’ style trains.

It’s time for modern rolling stock in the north

There really must be an election in the offing.

 

[47802]

And this morning the Chancellor has said

There really must be an election in the offing.

Until they see the cost of actually doing that, I think Hybrids are a good solution but I suspect that would be an expensive option, are there any cheap engine compliant and safety compliant Chinese DMU's out there?

Personally I think possibly the solution may well be to make some Railbuses compliant and look at some more Electrification schemes in the next period which have a good Bin a Bus ratio, In retrospect it would seem those 200 DMU carriages should have been ordered.

I also think there needs to be a maximisation of electric trains on electric routes even where there is a strong business case for running through diesel trains.

There are also some other things which might make an impact as well for instance what's happening with the 222's are these trains going to replace HST's or could they replace some services which are currently sprinter worked?

And if Daft are on about leaving the TOC's to their own devices with regard to rolling stock how's that that going to work with a DMU cascade plan.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Looking forward when Pacers become heritage units & or scrapped!
I blame the politicians not being practical when deciding on 2020.
Maybe ok for buses, but railways they need to think more long term.
Probably 2030 would have been a more sensible choice for rail.
As for spending any money on these trains retrofitting etc is ridiculous.(other than replacing worn out seating engines etc) Doubling up with a compliant train is an option. Removing toilets is crazy! Not all disabled use a wheelchair!
Looking long term electrification / new trains is the way to go.

 

[yorksrob]

Well the cost is more than the financial figure. Porterbrook's plans for 143s and 144s would reduce the 2 car sets to having around 80 seats. This would make them even more unsuitable for some of their current services.

Indeed. I would hope that enough would be available to allow a much greater incidence of doubling up units than is currently the case.

 

[Jonny]

I understand that pacers run in the Chancellor's constituency (mostly the Mid-Cheshire line).

 

[northwichcat]

I blame the politicians not being practical when deciding on 2020.

It was John Major's government who decided on 31st December 2019 based on the logical reasoning of DMUs having a 25-30 year shelf life without a major refurbishment, so anything older than the 165s should have been scrapped or completely refurbished before the end of 2019. However, the Coalition government has failed to look at long term plans properly and just decided no new DMUs and electrify without properly looking at how much electrification is required to allow for no new DMUs without leaving the network short of capacity. Really a final decision needed to be made 3-4 years ago about whether Pacers will be withdrawn by 31st Dec 2019 and if the answer was yes then a proper refurbishment program should have been sanctioned and completed by now. There would then have been the option of getting 10 years out of the refurbished trains, which is suggested as the minimum term required to justify a full refurbishment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I understand that pacers run in the Chancellor's constituency (mostly the Mid-Cheshire line).

Yes. On a typical weekday around 30% of services in the morning peak are Pacer operated on the Mid-Cheshire line, by the evening peak the proportion of Pacers has increased to around 60% of services.

While Alderley Edge-Piccadilly services are the most likely to get 142s if there's a 323 shortage.

 

[ash39]

I don't like Pacers, and I try not to use them wherever possible, but given the choice of double Pacers, scrapping pacers (and a reduction in capacity) or fare increase to cover a new order of DMU's that may not be needed for very long, I know what I'd go for every time.

 

[Leylandlad]

Just seen a photo over on Railbrit of a 142 at Ravenglass working a Barrow-Carlisle service on 14th June.

That line used to be just 156/153's.

What a nightmare journey, 2.5 hours on a Pacer :cry:

 

[47802]

Just seen a photo over on Railbrit of a 142 at Ravenglass working a Barrow-Carlisle service on 14th June.

That line used to be just 156/153's.

What a nightmare journey, 2.5 hours on a Pacer :cry:

Well that's one of the problems they still turn up on routes that are far too long, and of course with Northern's Random unit generator you frequently don't know what's actually going to turn up. If the number is reduced by electrification eventually and they are restricted to mainly shorter journeys, with a decent refurb, while its not ideal I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[deltic08]

Looking at it logically, with all the proposed electrification projects, Thames Valley, Cardiff Valleys, NW, TP, EGIP and the few being considered now such as Chester, Harrogate etc, there should be enough DMUs released to replace 400 Pacer carriages. Exemption extension seems the logical plan on 14x and 15x units until scrapping.

 

[northwichcat]

Looking at it logically, with all the proposed electrification projects, Thames Valley, Cardiff Valleys, NW, TP, EGIP and the few being considered now such as Chester, Harrogate etc, there should be enough DMUs released to replace 400 Pacer carriages. Exemption extension seems the logical plan on 14x and 15x units until scrapping.

Don't forget:

1. EMUs are less flexible. 50 x 4 car EMUs may not be able to replace 75 x 2 car DMUs despite being more vehicles (even assuming no capacity boost) as some of the quieter services on electrified routes will get extra capacity they don't need.

2. Extra capacity is needed on a lot of lines which aren't being electrified or even being considered for electrification. The Manchester-Chester via Altrincham, Buxton, Manchester-Southport and Manchester-Warrington via Liverpool lines are just a few examples.

3. Making units properly accessible will reduce capacity, while the 153s are unlikely to remain in single carriage formations so some lines will likely get longer diesel trains even if they aren't desperate for extra capacity.

 

[47802]

Don't forget:

1. EMUs are less flexible. 50 x 4 car EMUs may not be able to replace 75 x 2 car DMUs despite being more vehicles (even assuming no capacity boost) as some of the quieter services on electrified routes will get extra capacity they don't need.

2. Extra capacity is needed on a lot of lines which aren't being electrified or even being considered for electrification. The Manchester-Chester via Altrincham, Buxton, Manchester-Southport and Manchester-Warrington via Liverpool lines are just a few examples.

3. Making units properly accessible will reduce capacity, while the 153s are unlikely to remain in single carriage formations so some lines will likely get longer diesel trains even if they aren't desperate for extra capacity.

Well that's true to a degree, but there are plenty of Northern Services running as 2 car plus a dogbox so if they were made perm it shouldn't be a big issue. plus if you look at electrification to Harrogate for instance a lot of those services are 4 car anyway, so your replacing like with like and freeing up quite a few units in the process, will there really be really much overprovision on the current approved routes for electrification

 

[northwichcat]

Well that's true to a degree, but there are plenty of Northern Services running as 2 car plus a dogbox so if they were made perm it shouldn't be a big issue.

It's not just Northern 153s that need to be considered. EMT, ATW, LM and FGW all operate 153s. There may only be a small minority of services operated by single carriage trains in each area but add them up and you might finish up with needing something like 40 extra carriages nationwide.

plus if you look at electrification to Harrogate for instance a lot of those services are 4 car anyway, so your replacing like with like and freeing up quite a few units in the process

But then what if there's growth post-electrification (which some people say is pretty much a given)? Then you'll likely need to increase the number of carriages or services further.

 

[Aldaniti]

And this morning the Chancellor has said

There really must be an election in the offing.

Exactly. How can you tell a politician is lying? His lips move.

The UK has spent at least £20 billion on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that, at best, have achieved nothing. How much did the failed NHS computer system cost - was it £10bn or £12bn. Those are just two items of political incompetence that you and I have had to pay for. How much more money have the politicians frittered away in recent years? And they have the cheek to say there is no money to refurbish a fleet of knackered banger trains well past their sell by date, opting for the sticking plaster approach again.

The railway companies can't be trusted to run the railway properly so the DoT and its civil servants, who know little about running a railway, have to micro-manage. They in turn are watched over by a bunch of inept politicians. What really makes me laugh is that people will flock to the polling booths come election day next year and vote for 5 more years of the same.

The only way you'll ever make a difference is by refusing to vote. When the politicians have no mandate they'll get worried about revolution and will have to sit up and listen.