Pacergeddon!!!

[185]

Is this the beginning of the end?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15390172

They've had enough in Yorkshire

(By Alan Whitehouse, a brilliant Beeb journo and someone I count as a friend)

 

[davelew99]

I don't get that, the article implies that fares would rise from Northern to replace the trains and that it's Northerns fault.

It's already been well discussed that - northern cannot replace trains because the franchise won't let them and Serco/Abellio have said that they would be willing to invest their own money but can't because... the franchise won't let them!

 

[142094]

Pacers work on the line between Scarborough and Hull? Don't think they do, unless there are special circumstances.

Now I've lived and worked in Yorkshire for a few years, and people don't complain about Pacers that much. Most of the complaints I have heard are about general overcrowding (overcrowding is overcrowding whether it be on a 14x or a TPE 185), cost of tickets and lack of information about delays.

All I see in this story is a rehash of the comments made after the incident at Winsford.

Also note:

There is no suggestion that the trains are unsafe today.

 

[4SRKT]

A non-story, of sub-Look North quality (!), riddled with factual inaccuracies and a very old picture of a 142 in RR livery. Do journalists not have enough to do? Frankly I'm surprised at Alan Whitehouse whose output is normally about the only thing on Look North that isn't painful to watch. Leave this sort of garbage to Christa mate!

 

[ACE1888]

As it stands they're on 'borrowed time' (Again:roll in the South West, Final day 'Farewell' Tour planned for Sunday 27th November (well according to my mate who works for FGW anyway). Real shame, as they add 'so much character to the lines around Exeter...NOT

 

[heenan73]

They are pretty horrible trains, and inherently unsafe* - but that hasn't worried anyone over the last 25 years, why start worrying now?

Northern says its average fare is just £2.90, less than the cappuccino that many commuters buy to drink on the train.

Do Northerners really pay over £2.90 for frothy mud? We soft southerners don't pay that much.

*Safety is never absolute, always relative. Compare a pacer with any other network rail certified stock - it's unsafe. Compare it with the best, and it's a deathtrap.

 

[marks87]

As it stands they're on 'borrowed time' (Again:roll in the South West, Final day 'Farewell' Tour planned for Sunday 27th October (well according to my mate who works for FGW anyway). Real shame, as they add 'so much character to the lines around Exeter...NOT

27th October is a Thursday. I should know...it's my birthday!

I've only been on a Pacer once in my life, from Liverpool Lime St. to Wigan and didn't think it was too bad, although there was a certain novelty factor. I can see why people using them on a regular basis would get annoyed.

And of course, that could come from monotony as opposed to cumfort; I'm fed up of ScotRail's 170s and was almost audible in my joy at getting a 158 from Glasgow to Dundee a few weeks back

 

[4SRKT]

They are pretty horrible trains, and inherently unsafe* - but that hasn't worried anyone over the last 25 years, why start worrying now?



Do Northerners really pay over £2.90 for frothy mud? We soft southerners don't pay that much.

*Safety is never absolute, always relative. Compare a pacer with any other network rail certified stock - it's unsafe. Compare it with the best, and it's a deathtrap.

Compare it with any other mode of transport, it's very safe indeed. Why are people so desparate to drive cost into railways?

 

[anthony263]

As it stands they're on 'borrowed time' (Again:roll in the South West, Final day 'Farewell' Tour planned for Sunday 27th October (well according to my mate who works for FGW anyway). Real shame, as they add 'so much character to the lines around Exeter...NOT

If FGW are going run a farewell tour I wonder if they could be persuaded to run a pacer into Paddington? I know some staff would very much like to do such a thing.

I would like to see the looks on commutors faces when they see a pacer sitting in the platform.

 

[swt_passenger]

This isn't even real journalism, I think that BBC article has been lifted almost verbatim from somewhere else.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Think the BBC report might be based on an ORR 2011 health and safety report (PDF) at:
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/health_safety_report_2011.pdf
which says on p4:
"We are particularly concerned about the ongoing use of Pacers beyond their intended design life and we will be carefully scrutinising the industry’s plans for ensuring they can continue to be used safely"
(and another bit on p22-23)

 

[Crossover]

There is a discussion on the Look North Facebook page if anyone wants to look. Not read it fully myself yet

The biggest problem for those saying about replacement trains is where to get them from...they don't grow on trees!

Someone is also drawing the age old parallel of not having such old buses but of course the stock lifecycle of buses is much shorter than that of trains

 

[dickdarlington]

Us poor sods in the North won't get shiny new trains. End of story. 2019 will come and pass, and the disabled thing will be shoved to one side by a technicality. Only when London gets bored of the 172s and electrifies the GOBLIN line, Chiltern replace all the 170s and so on will we see these units cascaded.

Its a shame that the 165s can't be moved up north. But even then, they'd go onto the major routes, with 156s being moved to the commuter lines.

I've always thought that 150s would be better on the Tees Valley/Durham Coast lines when it comes to the positioning of the doors than the 'planned' 156 usage for the Tees Valley Metro.

 

[90019]

Us poor sods in the North won't get shiny new trains. End of story.

Just like all those shiny new 175s you didn't get at the turn of the century, or those shiny new 333s you didn't get at around the same time, or those shiny new 185s you didn't get in 2006.

Not forgetting, of course, all those shiny new trains the North got in the 80s, when the south was still using slammers until 2005.


I'm curious to know how many of the people who complain about always getting old trains would be happy with the increased fares to pay for all this new stock they want?

 

[richw]

Do Northerners really pay over £2.90 for frothy mud? We soft southerners don't pay that much.
.

Depends where you go, McDonalds do decent coffees, £1.59 for a cappucino, cheaper for a normal white or black though, Go to Costa and its around £4 for a cappucino, personnally i prefer McDs coffee over Costa. I spend my days driving for work, and buy 4-5 coffees a day.

 

[tbtc]

The BBC article now claims the average ticket price is £2.19 - maybe coffee has come down in price too?

Then again, if you take Sheffield - Barnsley for example, an off-peak return is £4.40, so the single ticket price for any journey of around half an hour is around £2.19. Given that a number of people (on Northern services) are either doing shorter journeys/ kids/ pensioners/ other railcards/ "priv" tickets etc... thats not too surprising an average.

Getting back on topic, I heard this story on Radio Sheffield this morning and it sounded like a "filler" story that the BBC had written to bring out on a day with no real news. There's nothing very "new" here, just a rehash of old information... seems a bit of a waste really.

 

[ainsworth74]

Pacers work on the line between Scarborough and Hull? Don't think they do, unless there are special circumstances.

They don't work between Scarborough and Hull but they do work on that line at least as far as Beverley and I think all the way to Bridlington on some turns.

Just like all those shiny new 175s you didn't get at the turn of the century, or those shiny new 333s you didn't get at around the same time, or those shiny new 185s you didn't get in 2006.

You mean those shiny 175s that the WAG appropriated to run services between Holyhead and Cardiff? Or those 333s that only appear on couple of lines in West Yorkshire? Or those 185s that now run to Scotland (which they were never meant to do) meaning that capacity on TPE's core is now woefully inadequate?

What about the rest? The North East you get 142s on nine out of ten local services or the North West which does see some more modern rolling stock but most of which is hopelessly short of capacity? Or how about Northern services around Sheffield?

Is there new stock in the North? Yes but it's not widespread and in most cases it doesn't provide sufficient capacity to cater for the demand. And none of this changes the fact that Northern will soon be operating nearly one hundred 14x units which are all in desperate need of replacement if not now then within the next 6-7 years.

 

[4SRKT]

The fact that the only Northern stock that is post-privatisation is the 333s, which as Ainsworth says are only used on two lines here, and a couple of 180 diagrams around Manchester, rather blows a hole in 90019's uncharacteristically petulant post. Still, I don't mind, as I'm a 14x and 15x man to the core and frankly loathe 170s, 185s and their plastic ilk (except the rather wonderful 175s that is).

 

[dickdarlington]

Just like all those shiny new 175s you didn't get at the turn of the century, or those shiny new 333s you didn't get at around the same time, or those shiny new 185s you didn't get in 2006.

Not forgetting, of course, all those shiny new trains the North got in the 80s, when the south was still using slammers until 2005.


I'm curious to know how many of the people who complain about always getting old trains would be happy with the increased fares to pay for all this new stock they want?

The 185s are effectively intercityesque in their usage. So I don't class them as commuter trains. The 333s are prescribed to the Leeds conurbation are and only there because of the wires. And the 175s were used into Wales and the Midlands. Hardly northern England.

The majority of us (not me at the moment I admit) are stuck on Pacers or Sprinters. The one saving grace for living in Darlington is that commuters to Newc get the ECML. Step away from the mainlines and the world is grim.

I for one would be happy to pay a bit more on a train ticket to get a service in which I can relax on my journey home. But what I do get the hump with is paying increased amounts year on year for the same old rubbish, or knackered hand me downs. Although hand me downs would be greatly appreciated at present.

 

[90019]

The fact that the only Northern stock that is post-privatisation is the 333s, which as Ainsworth says are only used on two lines here, and a couple of 180 diagrams around Manchester, rather blows a hole in 90019's uncharacteristically petulant post.

The opinion that 'the North' never gets any new stock is getting extremely tedious.
If we go back 15 years, those in the South could say exactly the same things, about the North having all the relatively new stock, whilst they're still using trains from the 50s and 60s. They got all the new trains because there was nothing else to directly replace the ones that had to be taken out of service.
All the slamdoor stock had to be replaced, I reckon that if they were allowed, all the slammers would still be in use now.

It's not like there are no old trains in the South anyway. What about the 313s, and 315s? Or the 455s and 456s? Or the 319s? Or the 321s that are with FCC?

 

[4SRKT]

I don't disagree, and don't mind either because I like older stock. I just thought the way you said it was a bit petulant that's all. Which isn't your normal style.

 

[43021HST]

Depends where you go, McDonalds do decent coffees, £1.59 for a cappucino, cheaper for a normal white or black though, Go to Costa and its around £4 for a cappucino, personnally i prefer McDs coffee over Costa. I spend my days driving for work, and buy 4-5 coffees a day.

Mcds coffees are bloody awful, I prefer AMT coffee from the stations.

 

[richw]

Mcds coffees are bloody awful, I prefer AMT coffee from the stations.

McDs are quite nice round here, I've noticed different stores have different model machines, that appear to work completely different though, The older style machines seem to give better coffee IMHO.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well yes its all well and good saying we want new trains but i dont....
Cant somewhere where there is money to pay for new trains buy them and give us old ones. I'd be happier with that than fare increases....

 

[Yew]

The thing is, if we got 150's. 156's and other sprinters from other toc's to replace pacers. (I'm not gonna go into replacing those ATM, that's too long of a post). Then with a good refurb, (emt158 standard). They can match any new unit for ride quality and interior comfort.

 

[LexyBoy]

The South until recently had an enormous amount of ageing stock - which was replaced only because it had to be on HSE and disability regulations grounds. We still have HSTs which are older than Pacers.

The problem with Pacers is not that their age, but their general crappiness, and the fact they end up on busy commuter routes rather than quiet country branchlines. 150s/156s are fine if they're well maintained - they're basically like a DMU 458 or 319. Excepting London commuter routes, which needed new stock to replace slammers, the only new trains a lot of the South sees are Voyagers (which couldn't be described as limited to the South by any means!).

*Safety is never absolute, always relative. Compare a pacer with any other network rail certified stock - it's unsafe. Compare it with the best, and it's a deathtrap.

...And compared to a car, a Pacer is as safe as a particularly cautious HSE representative who has just completed a diploma in safety, using a felt-tipped pen and wearing anti-papercut gloves.

Why exactly are Pacers "inherently unsafe"? Sure, bits fall off them, but modern trains have similar "features" (viz. under-floor heating facility on 180s).

 

[northwichcat]

Overall PTE areas tend to get the better trains in the Northern area: the three types of EMUs are all operated in PTE areas, while a lot of 156s and 158s are allocated to PTE areas. However, PTE area passengers pay the lower fares. I'd love to be able to do Knutsford-Northwich for the '£2.90 average fare' That costs £4 single or up to £5.60 return to go between two towns less than 10 miles apart and around half the services are 142 operated.

"A new train would cost about six times as much as a Pacer in leasing charges, so each train would have to carry six times the number of passengers"

They've obviously ignored maintenance costs being lower for a new train and in most cases newer trains are greener so less diesel thirsty (185s excepted.)

 

[Lampshade]

It's not even that relevant to Yorkshire given the VAST majority of 142s are trundling around Lancashire/Manchester.

 

[ChrisCooper]

As other have said, it's forgotten that Northern had a massive investment of stock in the 90s, i.e Sprinters. There were also the 323s around Manchester, 321s on Doncaster to Leeds, infact the only old stock at Privatisation were the rapidly replaced by brand new trains 308s, and a small number of 101s and hauled stock. Trains cost money and have a fairly long life expectancy. Replace a large number of trains in a certain area and naturally they aren't going to get a massive amount of new stock for some time. Give it about 10 years and there will be sections of the South East moaning about their old Electrostars and Desiros.

Regardling the Pacers being unsafe or even "deathtraps", just how many people have been killed or seriously injured in accidents involving Pacers? None. How many people get killed on the roads, often driving in modern cars with plenty of safety features? Loads. Are cars considered "unsafe" or "deathtraps"? No. I wonder how a modern train would have stood up to being rammed by an 87 at high speed? It wouldn't have looked pretty, and I'm sure had it been carrying a reasonable number of passengers there would have been fatalities. Of cource the media with it's "new is good, old is bad" adgenda would have had plenty of things about how the train stood up really well considering and how things could have been so much worse had it been an old train. Plus one proposal for replacing Pacers is "tram trains". You really want to be on a tram when it gets hit by a heavy rail train at high speed? All these extra safety means higher build cost, more weight, more fuel used, less capacity, higher track access charges. Got to be a compromise, or should we just put fares up such that people end up using their cars instead, statistially far less safe than a Pacer.

 

[Lampshade]

As other have said, it's forgotten that Northern had a massive investment of stock in the 90s, i.e Sprinters. There were also the 323s around Manchester, 321s on Doncaster to Leeds, infact the only old stock at Privatisation were the rapidly replaced by brand new trains 308s, and a small number of 101s and hauled stock. Trains cost money and have a fairly long life expectancy. Replace a large number of trains in a certain area and naturally they aren't going to get a massive amount of new stock for some time. Give it about 10 years and there will be sections of the South East moaning about their old Electrostars and Desiros.

You do realise Pacers were only intended to have a 15 year life expectancy (not 20 as the article suggests, they weren't intended to see the turn of the century)? I think the oldest is now 26, even if they're safe enough, they're still clapped out and woefully inadequate.