Oyster Travelcard + Paper Ticket

[penaltyfines]

Boundary Zone 2 - Boundary Zone 3 doesn't exist.

Boundary Zone 2 - Southall Anytime Day Return is £3.70 (Oyster).

Boundary Zone 2 - Slough Anytime Day Return is £9.40.

Where did you get these prices from?

So basically with my Oyster Z12, I can get a ADR BZ2-Slough for £9.40, then ADR Slough-Reading for £17.40 total.

That's a split BZ2>RDG instead of the direct £32.70 for a BZ4-RDG on one ticket, saving £15.30! bargain... especially considering I would usually have bought a PAD-RDG and not realised my oyster travelcard was of use, the ADR RDG-PAD ticket is £36!

 

[Lampshade]

Where did you get these prices from?

National Fares Manual

So basically with my Oyster Z12, I can get a ADR BZ2-Slough for £9.40, then ADR Slough-Reading for £17.40 total.

Provided it stops in Slough, yes.

 

[penaltyfines]

Provided it stops in Slough, yes.

No... I can get a fast train from London to Reading as per the NRCoC on splitting tickets, as one of them (Oyster Z12 Travelcard monthly season to be explicit) is a season ticket.

 

[John @ home]

No... I can get a fast train from London to Reading as per the NRCoC on splitting tickets, as one of them (Oyster Z12 Travelcard monthly season to be explicit) is a season ticket.

I agree. That's what the NRCoC says.

 

[talltim]

Interesting thread, I've previously travelled Chesterfield to Leeds and return using three tickets, (season Chesterfield-Dore, SYPTE Travelmaster Sheffield-Meadowhall and return Meadowhall-Leeds) on XC trains that don't stop at Meadowhall. If I had lived in Sheffield the journey wouldn't have been allowed, but because I travel daily from Chesterfield its OK!

 

[yorkie]

So basically with my Oyster Z12, I can get a ADR BZ2-Slough for £9.40, then ADR Slough-Reading for £17.40 total.

ADR isn't a ticket code. It is, however, the 3-letter code for Airdrie!
Ticket types for Boundary Zone 6 to Slough are:
FDR, FCR, SDR, FDS, CDR & CDS.

I recommend not using 3-letter codes (either for stations or ticket types) if there is any doubt that they are correct, otherwise it can cause confusion.

There is already some confusion with people calling Off Peak Returns OPRs. This is incorrect. An OPR is a Super Off Peak Return (as is a SSR)!

Be careful with the codes
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting thread, I've previously travelled Chesterfield to Leeds and return using three tickets, (season Chesterfield-Dore, SYPTE Travelmaster Sheffield-Meadowhall and return Meadowhall-Leeds) on XC trains that don't stop at Meadowhall. If I had lived in Sheffield the journey wouldn't have been allowed, but because I travel daily from Chesterfield its OK!

If you visit York...
Chesterfield-Dronfield 7Day Season £12.50
Dronfield-York SOR £18.80
Total = 31.30
Valid on non-stop trains of course. Not bad. Or get a NT stopper and change at SHF, to reduce it further to £21.80

This compares to £55.50 (!) for the Chesterfield-York SOR. As if anyone with any sense would pay that!

 

[penaltyfines]

With Z12 Monthly Season on Oyster... are these valid on a fast train from London Paddington to Reading?

All are Anytime Day Returns, text in NFM 'No Restriction Applies'.

Option 1

BZ2 to Richmond £3.70
Richmond to Reading £12.20

Routes "Any Permitted"

Total £15.90


Option 2

Putney to Reading £13.00

Route "Not London" - sets off alarm bells, but on that portion of the ticket, I'm not going through London... so seems fine?


-----

If Option 2 is valid I can't see getting from Paddington to Reading in Peak is going to get any cheaper than £13.00... cracking discount off the £36 standard fare just for having a Z12 season!

 

[dan_atki]

Neither would be valid as there is not a valid route Richmond/Putney to Reading via Paddington on an Any Permitted - hence the +London fares existing for these journeys.

An alternative is Clapham Junction to Reading SDR (£13.20) in conjunction with your 1 and 2 season. A valid route is Clapham Junction - Kensington Olympia - Hayes and Harlington - Reading (map RG).

However, seeing as this route is impossible to travel along, I'm not so sure it can be deemed valid to travel PAD-RDG with this combination. Theoretically, the answer should be yes but I'd want something in writing from FGW before I attempted to use it.

 

[penaltyfines]

Neither would be valid as there is not a valid route Richmond/Putney to Reading via Paddington on an Any Permitted - hence the +London fares existing for these journeys.

An alternative is Clapham Junction to Reading SDR (£13.20) in conjunction with your 1 and 2 season. A valid route is Clapham Junction - Kensington Olympia - Hayes and Harlington - Reading (map RG).

However, seeing as this route is impossible to travel along, I'm not so sure it can be deemed valid to travel PAD-RDG with this combination. Theoretically, the answer should be yes but I'd want something in writing from FGW before I attempted to use it.

The requirement is to travel from Paddington to Reading on a HST. The basis on which I believe these tickets are valid is s19 NRCoC:

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and " ... " one of the tickets is a Season Ticket"

Thus, my Z12 travelcard covers from Paddington to Z2, Putney (Z2) to Reading is covered by the paper ticket, thus I have a ticket for my entire journey from Paddington to Reading?? There's no need for the train to call at Putney so why does the train need to pass through it?

 

[dan_atki]

Thus, my Z12 travelcard covers from Paddington to Z2, Putney (Z2) to Reading is covered by the paper ticket, thus I have a ticket for my entire journey from Paddington to Reading?? There's no need for the train to call at Putney so why does the train need to pass through it?

Just because you transfer at the boundary of zone 2 between the two tickets does not necessarily mean it is valid. In this case, the reason is because the line your second ticket starts from is not the same as the line your first ticket finishes.

Let me think of a more clear cut example - say I held a Zones 1-2 Annual, and then bought a Lewisham to Charlton SDR to enable me to travel to Charlton.

Instead I travel from Greenwich (also at the zone 2 boundary like Lewisham) to Charlton. The train calls at Maze Hill and an RPI gets on there and asks to see my ticket. Which of them is valid at Maze Hill?

The answer is neither and I would be travelling without a valid ticket. Although, I'd hope in this case no action would be taken as (because of the zonal fare structure inboundary) I've paid the same fare.

In your case, you have no valid ticket through Acton Main Line as it is not on a valid route of your second ticket, and therefore the combination is invalid for the journey you wish to undertake.

 

[penaltyfines]

Just because you transfer at the boundary of zone 2 between the two tickets does not necessarily mean it is valid. In this case, the reason is because the line your second ticket starts from is not the same as the line your first ticket finishes.

Let me think of a more clear cut example - say I held a Zones 1-2 Annual, and then bought a Lewisham to Charlton SDR to enable me to travel to Charlton.

Instead I travel from Greenwich (also at the zone 2 boundary like Lewisham) to Charlton. The train calls at Maze Hill and an RPI gets on there and asks to see my ticket. Which of them is valid at Maze Hill?

The answer is neither and I would be travelling without a valid ticket. Although, I'd hope in this case no action would be taken as (because of the zonal fare structure inboundary) I've paid the same fare.

In your case, you have no valid ticket through Acton Main Line as it is not on a valid route of your second ticket, and therefore the combination is invalid for the journey you wish to undertake.

In your example, I sort of see what you're saying.

If you had a Season Ticket from London Terminals to Lewisham, then bought a Lewisham to Charlton ticket, could you travel on a *through train* from London Bridge to Charlton that went via Greenwich (don't know if such a thing exists, but hypothetically)? The ticket would "cover the entire journey", with no requirement to stop at Lewisham - it's just the route in question.

 

[dan_atki]

If you had a Season Ticket from London Terminals to Lewisham, then bought a Lewisham to Charlton ticket, could you travel on a *through train* from London Bridge to Charlton that went via Greenwich (don't know if such a thing exists, but hypothetically)? The ticket would "cover the entire journey", with no requirement to stop at Lewisham - it's just the route in question.

No, I don't believe you can. Whilst there is not the requirement to stop at Lewisham, there is the requirement to travel on a valid route from Lewisham to Charlton as per the National Routeing Guide (which does not include travel via Greenwich).

In effect, I believe condition 19 of the NCoC is giving flexibility to travel a route but travel fast through the station where the ticket changes over, not provide additional route options where the next ticket in sequence would not be valid by itself.

 

[John @ home]

Yes, I agree that Clapham Jn - Reading via Kensington O is a Permitted Route, currently without a train service.

I have limited info tonight because I'm in a hotel using a mobile, but isn't there a bit in the NRG that if there is no train service to a Routeing Point then that RP should be ignored? I wonder if it could be taken to be implied that if there is no train service along a mapped route then that route should be ignored.

 

[penaltyfines]

No, I don't believe you can. Whilst there is not the requirement to stop at Lewisham, there is the requirement to travel on a valid route from Lewisham to Charlton as per the National Routeing Guide (which does not include travel via Greenwich).

In effect, I believe condition 19 of the NCoC is giving flexibility to travel a route but travel fast through the station where the ticket changes over, not provide additional route options where the next ticket in sequence would not be valid by itself.

I disagree.... The Routeing Guide is only one of the ways of determining a valid route... NRCoC s3 (a)(i) says "a through train" is also a valid route, i.e. a through train from London Bridge to Charlton regardless of Greenwich or Lewisham.... no?

 

[MikeWh]

The example of London to Charlton is pretty much moot. If you buy a zone 1-2 annual travelcard it will be on an oystercard, surely. Extending would then be a matter of setting an OEP and using PAYG to pay the extra. However, were there to be paper tickets involved I would think that Lewisham to Charlton would NOT be valid at Maze Hill.

Of course when using PAYG on Oyster you could travel DLR from Lewisham to Greenwich then NR on to Charlton for the same price as a direct NR train. Such is the benefit of zonal integrated ticketing in London using Oyster.

 

[penaltyfines]

If you had a paper ticket from London Bridge to Charlton, it would be valid on a through train via Greenwich, can't argue with that.

The question with split tickets is whether you check the route before or after you 'build' the journey:

If you have tickets from A>B, B>C, C>D, one interpretation is to build a journey from those as A>D, then check the valid routes from A>D - i.e. it is always valid on a through train unless explicitly barred.

Or, the other interpretation is to check the route on each ticket portion separately before it is considered a valid journey.

This seems perfectly valid when the train has to call at the stations where the tickets join, as you therefore obviously have to take that route. But when the train doesn't have to stop at the stations, you could argue that it opens it up to any permitted route from A to D if the comprising tickets are also issued as any permitted route?

 

[dan_atki]

I disagree.... The Routeing Guide is only one of the ways of determining a valid route... NRCoC s3 (a)(i) says "a through train" is also a valid route, i.e. a through train from London Bridge to Charlton regardless of Greenwich or Lewisham.... no?

A 'through train' is only valid between the origin and destination as shown on each ticket and the rule cannot be read exclusively of that in section 19.

Of course, it doesn't explicitly say the same route has to be taken but I think it would be pretty off that you could use a ticket for one route on another than would not normally be valid, and that is why I have interpreted things the way I have.

Indeed, Lewisham to Charlton is hardly a major example but using a Richmond to Reading ticket on a HST out of Paddington is something different. Regardless of the rules or any interpretation of them, do you think - instinctively - that should be allowed?

 

[OwlMan]

The question with split tickets is whether you check the route before or after you 'build' the journey:

If you have tickets from A>B, B>C, C>D, one interpretation is to build a journey from those as A>D, then check the valid routes from A>D - i.e. it is always valid on a through train unless explicitly barred.
Or, the other interpretation is to check the route on each ticket portion separately before it is considered a valid journey.

From Conditions of carriage

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within
the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the
“permitted routes”.
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

The above is quite clear that it is per ticket and that for each ticket you must use a permitted route for that ticket.
For example I can not buy a ticket from Northampton to London and one from London to Penzance and then travel via Birmingham

Peter

 

[penaltyfines]

The above is quite clear that it is per ticket and that for each ticket you must use a permitted route for that ticket.
For example I can not buy a ticket from Northampton to London and one from London to Penzance and then travel via Birmingham

Peter

That's because the train has to 'stop' at London. We're discussing what happens when the train doesn't have to stop at the join of tickets
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A 'through train' is only valid between the origin and destination as shown on each ticket and the rule cannot be read exclusively of that in section 19.

Of course, it doesn't explicitly say the same route has to be taken but I think it would be pretty off that you could use a ticket for one route on another than would not normally be valid, and that is why I have interpreted things the way I have.

Indeed, Lewisham to Charlton is hardly a major example but using a Richmond to Reading ticket on a HST out of Paddington is something different. Regardless of the rules or any interpretation of them, do you think - instinctively - that should be allowed?

So a BZ2 to Slough, then Slough to Reading ticket, joined up with a Z12 Season ticket... how are the two paper tickets valid for a fast train PAD>RDG? Show your working :P

 

[OwlMan]

posted to wrong thread

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That's because the train has to 'stop' at London. We're discussing what happens when the train doesn't have to stop at the join of tickets
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



So a BZ2 to Slough, then Slough to Reading ticket, joined up with a Z12 Season ticket... how are the two paper tickets valid for a fast train PAD>RDG? Show your working :P

On the first point you have to go via the station where the tickets over because the routes over which you are allowed to travel are between those stations name on the ticket, unless the permitted routes meet somewhere along the way (not advance fares).

e.g.

1) If you held a Ticket from Manchester to Newton-Le-Willows and one from Newton-Le-Willows to Liverpool you could not travel via Irlam to Warrington because that is not covered by the Manchester to Newton-Le-Willows ticket.

2) If you held a ticket from Manchester to Earlestown and one from there to Liverpool you could go via Irlam and Hunts Cross because the ticket from Manchester to Earlestown is valid via Irlam and the ticket from Earlestown to Liverpool is valid via Hunts Cross. In the case of two non-season tickets, the train would have to stop at Warrington.

On your second point, the NCoC says that you may use two or more tickets to complete a longer journey if together they cover the entire journey and one is a season ticket and the other(s) is/are not. So a zone R12 season can be used with a boundary zone 2 to Slough and Slough to Reading 'walk up' tickets to travel on a train that doesn't stop between Paddington and Reading.

 

[penaltyfines]

Just had an update from First Great Western... only took 10 days to reply to my email!

London Monthly Travelcard Z12, BZ2 > Slough, Slough > Reading .... travelling on a HST fast train non-stop from Paddington to Reading.

They say that the travelcard and the first ticket is valid, but I must travel on a train that stops at Slough because the tickets don't cover my entire journey as the Slough > Reading ticket says 'Slough' on it.

This is in spite of s19:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel

Any advice?

 

[jon0844]

Condition 19 says ONE of the following must apply.

You have a Z1-2 monthly, so that's a season ticket. The other two tickets were just bought on the day? Then they're NOT season tickets.

So that, to me, satisfies 19(c).

one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

 

[John @ home]

Any advice?

Send the correspondence to London Travelwatch and ask them to intervene to ensure that your rights under the NRCoC can be enforced.

 

[penaltyfines]

I don't mind enforcing my own rights

But am I in the right? What does 'cover the entire journey' mean?

i.e. how is a ticket from Slough to Reading valid if it doesn't stop at Slough?

That's what they asked me, I want to know what to say

 

[John @ home]

I don't mind enforcing my own rights

That's up to you. I would choose to go to LTW at this stage.

how is a ticket from Slough to Reading valid if it doesn't stop at Slough?

By Condition 19, which you quote above.

I want to know what to say

Then send one of us a draft by PM.

 

[jon0844]

But you only have to satisfy any one of the those conditions. If that happens, condition 19(b) doesn't apply.

Note the use of the word 'or' and not 'and', plus it saying "You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:"

My problem with FCC was down to them having agreed at some time to allow people to break condition 19 (and, as such, I've now changed my ticket to get two zonal tickets that complies with Condition 19(a) but this is completely clear and surely not even open to interpretation.

You don't need to be a lawyer to understand that condition, given it's published to the end user. If you did, I am sure they would come under some unfair contract terms law/act.

 

[dan_atki]

I don't mind enforcing my own rights

But am I in the right? What does 'cover the entire journey' mean?

i.e. how is a ticket from Slough to Reading valid if it doesn't stop at Slough?

That's what they asked me, I want to know what to say

jonmorris0844 has hit the nail on the head with his reply an hour ago.

Let's go through condition 19, setting a logical argument up.

You may use two or more tickets for one journey

You are using three tickets. The last time I checked, three is more than two and hence this is satisfied.

as long as together they cover the entire journey

Zones 1-2 + BZ2 to Slough, covers a journey from Zone 1 to Slough. BZ2 to Slough + Slough to Reading covers a journey from Boundary Zone 2 to Reading. Therefore, the three tickets together cover a journey from Zone 1 to Reading with no gaps.

and one of the following applies:

We are given three conditions that we must adhere to. The Conditions of Carriage state that only one of the said three conditions needs to be satisfied for the combination of these three tickets to be valid. Let's choose condition (c) as it looks like the one that is most helpful.

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass

We have established in previous threads that TfL is not a PTE, and so a Zones 1 and 2 Season Travelcard is a Season Ticket by the purpose of this very definition given in the condition. This is one of your three tickets.

and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Let's remove the superfluous parts in this situation:

and the other tickets are not.

The two other tickets held, i.e. the BZ2 to Slough and the Slough to Reading are single/return tickets and so, by the purposes of the definition are NOT season tickets.

Therefore condition (c) has been satisfied provided neither of the other two tickets are 'leisure travel passes'...

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

None of the tickets held have this restriction so it can be ignored.

If you do not comply with this Condition...

This can be deemed to be irrelevant if we show the other two tickets are not leisure travel passes. Fortunately, Condition 19 finishes with what it states to be a leisure travel pass:

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes.

This last bit is fundamental to your argument in confirming (c) is satisfied. Neither (i) nor (ii) are satisfied with a single/return ticket and so neither the BZ2 to Slough nor Slough to Reading tickets are leisure travel passes.

As neither of these are season tickets or leisure travel passes, we can confirm that condition (c) has ben satisfied - there is one (and ONLY ONE) season ticket/leisure travel pass in the combination.

Because condition (c) has been satisfied for the whole combination, it is NOT necessary to also satisfy condition (b) - the preamble states that only one condition needs to be satisfied, not two. We have satisfied (c) and so we are complying with Condition 19.

 

[penaltyfines]

Dan - Don't get me wrong, I've been through all that and come to the same conclusion - great!

Zones 1-2 + BZ2 to Slough, covers a journey from Zone 1 to Slough. BZ2 to Slough + Slough to Reading covers a journey from Boundary Zone 2 to Reading. Therefore, the three tickets together cover a journey from Zone 1 to Reading with no gaps.

What's confusing me (and I'm sure there's a concept I'm not getting the hang of) is that if you've done this to come to the conclusion that the three tickets cover a journey from Zone 1 to Reading with no gaps... what's wrong with this:

Z12 TC + BZ2 to Richmond CDR covers a journey from Zone 1 (e.g. PAD) to Richmond.
Richmond to Reading CDR covers a journey from Richmond to Reading.

Therefore the three tickets together cover a journey from Zone 1 to Reading with no gaps.

I've been told this isn't valid on a HST from Paddington to Reading as, even though the tickets are any permitted route and s19(c) applies, the train would have to call at Richmond.

So why in the original example doesn't the train have to call at Slough for the same reason that the Richmond tickets aren't valid?

Hope this makes sense... thanks!

 

[MikeWh]

I think the difference is that one covers the route the train takes whereas the other doesn't. Condition 19 allows you to take a non-stop train providing that you have tickets valid for the duration of that journey. In the case of tickets via Richmond you haven't got tickets that cover the entire route of the HST.