Oyster Travelcard + Paper Ticket

[penaltyfines]

Hi,

I know you can use more than one ticket for a journey, providing the train you are travelling on stops at the station where the two tickets join.

I also have read on threads here, that you can travel on a train that doesn't stop at that station if one of the tickets is a season ticket. I have a Zone 1-4 Travelcard on my Oyster card.

If I am travelling to Reading from Paddington, can I buy a ticket from Southall (in Zone 4) and travel on a fast train to Reading?

Thanks

 

[John @ home]

I also have read on threads here, that you can travel on a train that doesn't stop at that station if one of the tickets is a season ticket. I have a Zone 1-4 Travelcard on my Oyster card.

Yes. You don't need the train to stop at the changeover point if one of the tickets is a Season Ticket ... and the other ticket(s) is/are not. See condition 19(c) of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

If I am travelling to Reading from Paddington, can I buy a ticket from Southall (in Zone 4) and travel on a fast train to Reading?

The guidance is that you should ask for a ticket from Boundary Zone 4 to Reading. It doesn't make any difference here because Southall - Reading fares are the same as Boundary Zone 4 - Reading route Slough fares. This isn't always the case.

 

[bb21]

You can buy a Boundary Zone 4 - Reading ticket which lets you travel on non-stop trains. The Off-Peak Day Return is £10, the Anytime Day Return is £21.50 and the Off-Peak Return is £19.80 Route Slough on First Great Western. Route Ascot on South West Trains comes in at £12.10, £12.20 (cheaper) and £22.20 respectively.All prices are not railcard discounted. They are broadly in line with the fares from Southall.

 

[yorkie]

Yes it's often cheaper from Boundary Zone X, where it isn't cheaper then there is no difference for a Season ticket holder, it's still valid, but for a Day Travelcard holder there could potentially be issues. The other potential issue is that such tickets can be more restrictive in terms of route (you may struggle to use such a ticket via Ascot, for example).

That said, when I asked for a ticket from BZ6 to Reading back in 2005 when FGW diverted into Waterloo, I was issued with a ticket from West Drayton, despite the fact we took the route via Ascot.
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You can buy a Boundary Zone 4 - Reading ticket which lets you travel on non-stop trains.

But a Southall - Reading also lets the OP travel on non-stop trains, as he/she holds a Travelcard season.

 

[penaltyfines]

The ticket barriers for platforms 2-5 (fast trains to RDG) at PAD don't have any oyster readers (even though they put stopping trains in there sometimes! grr), the gateline staff don't have any facility to validate that I do have a travelcard on my oyster, nor do the TMs on board have the ability. Is my ticket still valid?

 

[87 027]

I was in a similar situation to the OP a few years ago with a query about the validity of Travelcards on Midland Main Line. I wrote to their Customer Services to get something explicit in writing and they confirmed there was absolutely no problem.
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You might also find this quite amusing - it's relevant to your comment about the barriers at Paddington

http://www.virgintrains.org.uk/

If your season ticket is annual you could always show the accompanying Gold Record Card

 

[MikeWh]

I'm sure that I've read on other threads here that if you show an Oystercard and say that it's got a valid travelcard on it it's up to the TOC staff to prove otherwise. If they can't then that is their problem, not yours.

 

[John @ home]

The ticket barriers for platforms 2-5 (fast trains to RDG) at PAD don't have any oyster readers (even though they put stopping trains in there sometimes! grr), the gateline staff don't have any facility to validate that I do have a travelcard on my oyster, nor do the TMs on board have the ability. Is my ticket still valid?

Yes.

I'm sure that I've read on other threads here that if you show an Oystercard and say that it's got a valid travelcard on it it's up to the TOC staff to prove otherwise. If they can't then that is their problem, not yours.

Agreed. It's the train companies' job to ensure that they are in a position to check the validity of a ticket, not the passenger's.

 

[penaltyfines]

Thanks for your help!

What's the difference between BZ4-Reading and Southall-Reading? Are they the same price? Does one have more/less restrictions/validity?

Also - what if I had a Zone 1/2 travelcard. There's no station on the PAD-RDG line in Zone 2, the first is Acton Main Line in Z3. Could one buy a BZ2-Reading ticket, or does such a thing not exist?

Thanks again!

 

[W-on-Sea]

What's the difference between BZ4-Reading and Southall-Reading? Are they the same price? Does one have more/less restrictions/validity?

Not sure about the price (and can't work out how to find Boundary fares in Avantix) but BZ4-Reading would be valid on any (valid) route from (any) station in London Zone 4 to Reading (e.g. on the line out of Waterloo via Ascot); whereas Southall-Reading is valid only on the line that passes through Southall.

Also - what if I had a Zone 1/2 travelcard. There's no station on the PAD-RDG line in Zone 2, the first is Acton Main Line in Z3. Could one buy a BZ2-Reading ticket, or does such a thing not exist?

The lack of a station in Zone 2 on the line doesn't make any difference, so you could buy a BZ2-Reading ticket, which would be valid for the journey from Paddington if you had a zone 1-2 travelcard.

 

[RJ]

Not sure about the price (and can't work out how to find Boundary fares in Avantix) but BZ4-Reading would be valid on any (valid) route from (any) station in London Zone 4 to Reading (e.g. on the line out of Waterloo via Ascot); whereas Southall-Reading is valid only on the line that passes through Southall.

They're listed as Boundary Zone x

 

[penaltyfines]

Thanks - is there any way of finding out the BZ2>RDG fare online?

It feels like I'm gaming the system, or doing something wrong:

Anytime Day Return RDG > STL £21.50
Anytime Day Return STL > PAD £6.20
Total £27.70
but this can only be used on trains that stop at Southall, ie slow trains

Anytime Day Return RDG > PAD £34.30
Total £34.30

So theoretically there is a £6.60 'premium' to use the fast train.

It just seems like I'm gaming the system buying a BZ4>RDG as I'm getting the 'stopping service' discount rate while being able to use a fast train.... definitely ok?

More so.... The rules seem to say you can have more than 2, and only one needs to be a season...

Anytime Day Return RDG > SLO £8.00
Anytime Day Return SLO > STL £7.80
Total £15.80

So I could get from Paddington to Reading during peak for £15.80????

Thanks again for persevering with my loophole quest!

 

[Lampshade]

Thanks - is there any way of finding out the BZ2>RDG fare online?

Boundary Zone 2 to Reading Anytime Day Return is £32.70.

 

[RJ]

Thanks - is there any way of finding out the BZ2>RDG fare online?

It feels like I'm gaming the system, or doing something wrong:

Anytime Day Return RDG > STL £21.50
Anytime Day Return STL > PAD £6.20
Total £27.70
but this can only be used on trains that stop at Southall, ie slow trains

Anytime Day Return RDG > PAD £34.30
Total £34.30

So theoretically there is a £6.60 'premium' to use the fast train.

It just seems like I'm gaming the system buying a BZ4>RDG as I'm getting the 'stopping service' discount rate while being able to use a fast train.... definitely ok?

More so.... The rules seem to say you can have more than 2, and only one needs to be a season...

Anytime Day Return RDG > SLO £8.00
Anytime Day Return SLO > STL £7.80
Total £15.80

So I could get from Paddington to Reading during peak for £15.80????

Thanks again for persevering with my loophole quest!

Travelcard + BZx tickets are valid on fast through trains because they are both Zonal tickets. If you're splitting at Slough then the train you're on needs to stop there. The peak situation is complicated because TfL and TOCs don't have the same definition of off Peak. The ODT has a restricton which states it is valid after 09:29 after which any train can be used. The CDR in question (BZ4 - RDG) has the same restriction.


That's for the afternoon, in the morning you will need to use the Anytime tickets.

 

[penaltyfines]

Boundary Zone 2 to Reading Anytime Day Return is £32.70.

Woah why is it £11.20 more to cover 2 more zones?! i.e. BZ4>RDG is £21.50?

 

[RJ]

Woah why is it £11.20 more to cover 2 more zones?! i.e. BZ4>RDG is £21.50?

I've noticed there are disparities in the prices of BZ tickets which aren't necessarily equal to the difference in price of the composite Travelcards. That's why I buy a Z1-6 Season TC as I often stray out of the zones. It works out cheaper in the long run.

 

[penaltyfines]

Travelcard + BZx tickets are valid on fast through trains because they are both Zonal tickets. If you're splitting at Slough then the train you're on needs to stop there.

I don't understand why the train would need to stop there: NRCoC s19

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies" .... " one of the tickets is a Season Ticket ".

Doesn't this mean that you could use 20 joining tickets theoretically, e.g. I could go from London to Bristol finding the cheapest combinations, as long as the first one was a season ticket? i.e. in this case:

One of my tickets is a season ticket (Z1-Z4 Travelcard on Oyster), then Z4 (Southall) -> Slough, then Slough -> Reading.

Not sure about the peak definition bit, these are all Anytime so I'm not taking advantage of any off-peak validity surely?

 

[MikeWh]

Does the condition apply to the two tickets valid at each join? I.e. if you had 5 tickets then the train would have to stop at each of the 4 intermediate stations unless one of the tickets valid at that station is a season. I'm not sure, but that would seem to be a logical interpretation. Which probably means it isn't true.

 

[penaltyfines]

Does the condition apply to the two tickets valid at each join? I.e. if you had 5 tickets then the train would have to stop at each of the 4 intermediate stations unless one of the tickets valid at that station is a season. I'm not sure, but that would seem to be a logical interpretation. Which probably means it isn't true.

Why do you assume that the other 4 intermediate stations need to be called at? The 1 season ticket makes the entire journey valid surely?

I interpreted it as follows:

Replacing:

two or more tickets = 3
one journey = London to reading

Conditions:

together they cover the entire journey = Starts at London, ends at Reading with no gaps
one of the tickets is a season ticket = ticket 1 is an oyster travelcard season


>>You may use tickets> for <London to Reading> as long as together they cover the entire journey (yes) and one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (yes) ".

Grammatically speaking I've met the conditions no?

It's not automatically assumed that trains need to call at stations where the tickets join (i.e. if it's not a season ticket or zonal fare), that's just <one> of the conditions. Provided i've met one of the other conditions (which I have), it doesn't apply.

I would go and ask at a ticket office but I think that would be futile!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The condition says one is a season and the other(s) is/are not IIRC. That means if one ticket is a season and the rest are not you do not need to join a train that calls at the 'boundary' station on any of them. But If you hold two seasons linked by 13 single/return fares you must use trains that call at the 'boundary' stations of all the tickets.

 

[penaltyfines]

The condition says one is a season and the other(s) is/are not IIRC. That means if one ticket is a season and the rest are not you do not need to join a train that calls at the 'boundary' station on any of them. But If you hold two seasons linked by 13 single/return fares you must use trains that call at the 'boundary' stations of all the tickets.

Hi - see my above post for my interpretation. Same question to you, I don't see why having one season ticket doesn't satisfy the condition for the entire journey?

Here's the offending section:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

At best, if they intended for each join to satisfy one of the conditions above, it should read:

"...and one of the following applies to each pair"

Otherwise it reads "(c) one of the two or more tickets is a Season Ticket".

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think you have misread my post, I said that one season ticket with one or more non-season tickets is fine.

If two season tickets are held, you would have to stop at every station where the tickets change-over.

 

[penaltyfines]

OK, so the above scenario is fine?

I will try it out next week, I'm sure the gateline or TM staff will have a field day

 

[causton]

I think you have misread my post, I said that one season ticket with one or more non-season tickets is fine.

If two season tickets are held, you would have to stop at every station where the tickets change-over.

Indeed, that is how I interpreted it... seems weird, but hey ho!

 

[yorkie]

There is a lot of confusion in this thread!

penaltyfines - When RJ spoke about the train needing to call, he meant for Day travelcards. As I said earlier, the only benefits to a Season travelcard holder in getting Boundary Zone tickets are: potentially allows more routes, and they are usually cheaper. This will vary depending on destination.

penaltyfines - some police officers may not be able to validate a car owner's numberplate or their tax disc is genuine. Do car owners need to worry about this? If they can't check, they can't check, not your problem!

And yes you can combine any number of tickets, only one needs to be a season. This was discussed here previously and someone wrote to ATOC and asked them and it was confirmed. A York-Poppleton season could be combined with a York-Grantham + Grantham-London and GC would have to accept it on a non-stop York-London train.
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Woah why is it £11.20 more to cover 2 more zones?! i.e. BZ4>RDG is £21.50?

Railway ticketing is illogical and unfair. It is one of our aims to make journeys affordable and reasonably priced, this can be done by ensuring only good value tickets are purchased and rip-off tickets are not purchased.

£11 more to cover 2 more zones is nothing Here is one example of charging around £25 more to travel just 5 miles further (a taxi would be a lot cheaper):-

Morecambe - Micklefield Anytime Day Return £21.10 Anytime Return £24.80
Morecambe - Church Fenton Off Peak Return £46.90 Anytime Return £59.30

So the price more than doubles, with a few quid added on too!

Morecambe - Micklefield is 80 miles, and it's 5 miles further to Church Fenton. All trains to Church Fenton call at Micklefield and the fare between them is £4.40 Anytime Day Return (£3.60 Off Peak Day Return to Pontefract, which is valid via Church Fenton as that is the shortest route!)

They try to rip us off, and charge us around double what I consider to be the 'correct' fare in some cases. It's only right that we use whatever methods we can to get the price down to an acceptable level and avoid the TOCs defrauding us out of paying excessively high fares.

 

[Lampshade]

Morecambe - Micklefield and Church Fenton is priced by Northern and TPE respectively, either Northern are too generous or TPE are extortionate.

 

[MikeWh]

There is a lot of confusion in this thread!

Sorry for my part in that - I know now.

 

[yorkie]

Morecambe - Micklefield and Church Fenton is priced by Northern and TPE respectively,

Yes, but even if they were priced by the same TOC, the huge discrepancy would still be there. The £24.80 and £46.90 fares were both SVRs under Arriva Trains Northern, and believe me there's no way TPE have upped the price by over £20 since they took over around 5 years ago. There are underlying historical reasons for huge price increases, but privatisation has made it a lot worse and introduced new ones.

either Northern are too generous or TPE are extortionate.

Definitely the latter! But this discrepancy isn't totally TPEs fault, but TPE have made it worse, the £59 fare should really be abolished and the £46 fare that is valid at any time, should be re-classified as an SOR, but that's a different topic for another thread!
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Sorry for my part in that - I know now.

No problem, the bit you were unsure of is complex and many people get confused by it. We debated this issue before and got the answer from ATOC just over over 2 years ago, see this post (which you've probably not seen as it was before you joined the forum). Before the confirmation with ATOC (which really just confirms that their use of English is correct, for once ) I was actually sceptical that it was allowed to combine multiple tickets like that with only one being a season.

 

[penaltyfines]

Is there any way of calculating boundary zone fares online?

E.g. I wanted to know BZ2-BZ3 if there is such a thing, BZ2-STL and BZ2-SLO all Anytime Day Return to see what the cheapest combo is going to be, rather than taking the proverbial with the customer service person on the ticket desk.

 

[Lampshade]

Is there any way of calculating boundary zone fares online?

E.g. I wanted to know BZ2-BZ3 if there is such a thing, BZ2-STL and BZ2-SLO all Anytime Day Return to see what the cheapest combo is going to be, rather than taking the proverbial with the customer service person on the ticket desk.

Boundary Zone 2 - Boundary Zone 3 doesn't exist.

Boundary Zone 2 - Southall Anytime Day Return is £3.70 (Oyster).

Boundary Zone 2 - Slough Anytime Day Return is £9.40.