Oyster, travelcard and route validator oddity

[burgesst]

I travel regularly from Fulwell to Willesden Junction via Richmond. This covers zones 3-6, and I have a 3-6 travelcard on my Oystercard.

I was stopped by an inspector at Willesden Junction this morning who said I has travelled out of my zones as I had gone via Clapham Junction. But I hadn't.

Now I could have proved this by using the pink route validator at Richmond, but they clearly say on them that they are only for use if you are using pay as you go for part of your journey.

They let me go, but was I in the right? They said I needed to prove that I hadn't gone via zone 1, while I maintained that they needed to prove that I had!

 

[MikeWh]

I wonder if CCTV at Willesden Junction will show you getting off the NLL train?

I've just checked the single fare finder and that is a valid option for your journey. If you touch in at Fulwell and out at Willesden Junc with a travelcard on your Oyster I don't think you'd be charged anything, regardless of how you went.

I'm not clear what the burden of proof is regarding route. As this journey can be made via various routes I can see there might be a problem. Also, as Willesden Junction is a dual zoned station and one of them isn't covered by your travelcard, that adds a further unknown into the equation.

My advice would be to touch in and out on that journey and then you'll be fine.

 

[RJ]

My advice would be to touch in and out on that journey and then you'll be fine.

For some reason, Travelcard holders seem to have an aversion to doing this then are surprised when they run into problems, I've PF'd quite a few TC holders who didn't bother to touch in then can't get through the barriers due in insufficient funds. That wouldn't happen if the conditions of use were properly observed. That said, the inspector had little way to prove his accusation if the OP was within their TC's zones when the exchange took place. If no action was taken then I suspect it was no more than a helpful bit of advice given - by no means is every traveller completely clued up where it comes to ticketing so there is little harm in verifying what the customer has done.

 

[bakerstreet]

For some reason, Travelcard holders seem to have an aversion to doing this then are surprised when they run into problems, I've PF'd quite a few TC holders who didn't bother to touch in then can't get through the barriers due in insufficient funds. That wouldn't happen if the conditions of use were properly observed.

Sorry do we know the OP didn't touch in? He didn't touch the pink payg validator but I'm not sure we know he didn't touch in?

 

[burgesst]

No, I didn't touch in.

I regularly don't touch in, but touch out at the end without issue. And the reverse: I touch in on the way in going home, but don't touch out - again no issue. Also no issue if I touch in and out

I'm sure it used to state you didn't need to touch in or out as long as your travelcard covered all of your journey on the tfl help pages as I remember specifically searching for it when I saw others not doing it, but that page seems to have disappeared now!

 

[LexyBoy]

You do have to now. If you don't and end your journey within your zones, you will generally not be penalised, but if you end your journey outside the zones covered by your Travelcard, you'll get an incomplete journey charge on your Oyster.

 

[island]

If you touch in and out on every journey you cannot generally be PFed (as long as you don't travel outside the Oyster area entirely).

 

[burgesst]

You do have to now. If you don't and end your journey within your zones, you will generally not be penalised, but if you end your journey outside the zones covered by your Travelcard, you'll get an incomplete journey charge on your Oyster.

Did that change recently? Hardly anyone at my station touches out, and I can't beleive they're all on paper tickets?

On the other hand, it may be good to get into the habit of doing it, as I did get charged extra the other day when I forgot to touch in and then went beyond my zones on PAYG.

 

[MikeWh]

It's definitely a good idea to touch in if you can. Touching out is less of a problem.

 

[barrykas]

Did that change recently? Hardly anyone at my station touches out, and I can't beleive they're all on paper tickets?

Changed at the January 2010 fares change...Oyster on National Rail Conditions of Carriage are linked from here.

Specifically Condition 3.6:

When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving from; and at the end of your journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still use your Oyster card at stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working provided that your Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked instead to show your Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

And Condition 6.6.1 of the TfL Conditions of Carriage (linked from here):

When you use Underground, London Overground and National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader (see clause 6.8.) at both the start and the end of
your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader.

You can use the Travelcard season ticket on your Oyster card provided it is available and valid at the time you travel and any pay as you go balance on your Oyster card is not in debit. Should any pay as you go balance on your Oyster card be in debit, you must clear the debit before you use your Travelcard season ticket.

Provided that the season ticket on your Oyster card is available and valid at the time you travel, you can still use your Oyster card at stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working. You may be asked instead to show your Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

Cheers,

Barry

 

[yorkie]

Did that change recently? Hardly anyone at my station touches out, and I can't beleive they're all on paper tickets?

On the other hand, it may be good to get into the habit of doing it, as I did get charged extra the other day when I forgot to touch in and then went beyond my zones on PAYG.

Well, it's not necessary if you start AND finish your journey entirely within your Zones AND never stray out of the zones. However one of the advantages of the Oyster system is that you can change your mind mid-journey and travel to a different destination and not be penalised - however if you do this and it involves going outside your zones, this only works if you have touched in/out correctly. Also you can get into the habit of not touching in/out which results in you not touching in (out of habit) and then realising later that you needed to because you are going out of the zones.

They can't do anything (other than be obnoxious and treat you in a way that no other service industry would) to you if you are in your Zones, while not touched in, but I don't advise it, for the above reasons.

Equally, if you do touch in, and are caught outside your Travelcard zones, then you are valid and would not be committing any offence unless you then exited a station beyond the zones you are valid in without touching out. If you were caught doing that you could be prosecuted (or let off with a penalty fare).

If you had touched in, then the RPI could not have moaned at you.

If an RPI falsely accuses you of something, it's worth taking a note of their name and complaining (providing you are in the right). Did you get the RPIs name? If not, then I doubt there's much chance of the TOC identifying him now. RPIs like that should be either re-trained or, if they are not capable of that, sacked, because they give good RPIs a bad name. Sadly there are far too many bad RPIs in the London & South East area in my opinion, which is a shame as they really do tarnish the reputation of all of them. And in many cases that bad reputation is undeserved.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Considering how few direct trains there are between Fulwell and Richmond, as opposed to via Clapham J. It looks like the system suggests you'd go through Zone 2.

 

[MikeWh]

Considering how few direct trains there are between Fulwell and Richmond, as opposed to via Clapham J. It looks like the system suggests you'd go through Zone 2.

Indeed, the default route (not touching any pink validators or using any OSIs) is via Clapham Junction when using PAYG. When you have a travelcard season loaded on the Oyster the default changes to the cheapest alternative, which in this case is via Richmond.

 

[burgesst]

Indeed, the default route (not touching any pink validators or using any OSIs) is via Clapham Junction when using PAYG. When you have a travelcard season loaded on the Oyster the default changes to the cheapest alternative, which in this case is via Richmond.

That fits with experience. When I was on PAYG I used the validators at Richmond otherwise it charged me via Clapham Junction. I don't use them with my season, and it doesn't charge me extra.

(It is a pain to have to use the validators at the interchange, as sometimes you have 30 seconds to get from one train to another!)

BTW, I also go from Strawberry Hill if there are no direct Fulwell trains, or get the bus to Richmond.