Oyster touch not registering

[bb21]

I'm confused as to why there is even an argument here. Anyone on railway property should be able to demonstrate that they have a valid ticket entitling him to be there. While it might be more convenient to have platform validators, this must be balanced against potential revenue implications. Tickets held in different format will always attract different validation methods. Splitting with Oyster PAYG means that you accept the requirement to touch out at the changeover point, or accept a maximum cash fare. Buy a through ticket otherwise or use paper tickets. No one is forcing any passenger to split.
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Again, this is not under question. But no-one has been able to provide an explanation/justification for the principle that;

I think you are reading into something not intended by that statement.

 

[Deerfold]

Wherever you might get stopped for a check, you'd have two paper tickets that - subject to condition 19 - would either be valid or invalid for that journey. If not stopped, it doesn't matter as you've got two tickets - one to let you enter and one to exit - and have paid the right amount.

And if using Oyster PAYG then if checked before Clapham Junction you'd be able to display 1 ticket valid for the journey you were making to Clapham Junction, if checked after you'd show your validated Oyster card.

If the allegation is that people are likely to get off a train without a valid ticket and touch in and get back on a train, it would appear to be just as possible to buy a ticket online only for the part of the journey after Clapham Junction.

In either case a ticket check before Clapham Junction would detect this. Not having platform validators means those using Oyster must prove they have the ticket to Clapham Junction but those on paper tickets don't - so any fraudsters use paper tickets and any Oyster PAYG users are inconvenienced.

I don't know the area so I don't know how many are inconvenienced and whether the cost of on-platform validators is worth it, but I don't see that they increase fraudulent travel.

 

[yorkie]

I completely agree with the above post by Deerfold. Anyone wanting to arrive on Clapham Jn without a valid ticket, and then use a valid ticket from Clapham Jn to Waterloo, can easily pre-purchase a paper ticket for that leg of the journey. This is known as various names such as 'doughnutting' and pre-dates Oyster PAYG by many years!

I do not understand why there is a perceived need to inconvenience people using a combination of paper ticket + Oyster PAYG by removing platform validators, just because some people may use Oyster as part of a 'doughnut'. The 'doughnutters' will still be able to 'doughnut' by using a PAPER ticket instead!

 

[Urban Gateline]

I do not understand why there is a perceived need to inconvenience people using a combination of paper ticket + Oyster PAYG by removing platform validators, just because some people may use Oyster as part of a 'doughnut'. The 'doughnutters' will still be able to 'doughnut' by using a PAPER ticket instead!

Of course, however the paper ticket always costs more than the Oyster fare!

Deerfold and Yorkie seem to forget that most trains calling at Clapham Junction are either DOO or have Non-Commercial Guards, we are not talking about long distance travel here where nearly everyone will get ticket checked. Also I would suggest that Deerfold does not know the area as opposed to me working there on a daily basis so I see the "inconvenience" that you mention!

 

[clagmonster]

Many times I've caught people leaning over my Barriers to touch in and sometimes they cannot produce a valid ticket for being there or they "forgot to touch in" at their origin! Then don't get me started on those trying to stop short on Advance tickets and continue on Oyster, which is ripping the TOC's off as the Oyster fare from the London terminal they were booked into would be more than that from Clapham Junction!

Please can you clarify what these passengers are trying to do.

Avoid doubling-back between Clapham Jn & Waterloo.

e.g. Southampton - Clapham Jn - Richmond rather than Southampton - Clapham Jn - Waterloo - Clapham Jn - Richmond.

Stop short at Clapham Junction on Advance Tickets that are to either Waterloo or Victoria, which is of course a breach of the Advance Ticket terms and conditions.

In that case, I don't see the problem. The passenger's journey is, for example, Southampton-Richmond. Once the Oyster is touched in, they hold two tickets which cover the entire journey, as they would if they held a Southampton-Waterloo apex and a Clapham Jn-Richmond paper walk up ticket. Thus they satisfy condition 19. As long as they don't leave the station at Clapham Jn, there is no break of journey. Thus what they are trying to do is valid.
Of course, if they held a megatrain ticket, for which the conditions require the passenger to travel through to Waterloo, or no ticket at all, then it is a different matter.

 

[Deerfold]

Of course, however the paper ticket always costs more than the Oyster fare!

Deerfold and Yorkie seem to forget that most trains calling at Clapham Junction are either DOO or have Non-Commercial Guards, we are not talking about long distance travel here where nearly everyone will get ticket checked.

I've not forgotten that at all. If they weren't then I don't think there'd be as significant a problem of people doughnutting or just getting a paper ticket or Oyster validation that will get them (cheaply) through the gates at their destination.

Also I would suggest that Deerfold does not know the area as opposed to me working there on a daily basis so I see the "inconvenience" that you mention!

Care to enlighten us as to how many people that is then? I assume you're suggesting it's not very many?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Care to enlighten us as to how many people that is then? I assume you're suggesting it's not very many?

Indeed that is exactly what I am suggesting! It would be impossible to generate figures for that situation occuring (as I'm sure you're aware) so it's from observation.
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In that case, I don't see the problem. The passenger's journey is, for example, Southampton-Richmond. Once the Oyster is touched in, they hold two tickets which cover the entire journey, as they would if they held a Southampton-Waterloo apex and a Clapham Jn-Richmond paper walk up ticket. Thus they satisfy condition 19. As long as they don't leave the station at Clapham Jn, there is no break of journey. Thus what they are trying to do is valid.
Of course, if they held a megatrain ticket, for which the conditions require the passenger to travel through to Waterloo, or no ticket at all, then it is a different matter.

If a passenger comes off their booked train on an Advance ticket, at any point before the destination on that ticket, then that ticket is no longer valid (except for change of trains on the itinerary, however that doesn't apply in this particular scenario). Hence why stopping short is not permitted on Advance tickets, it doesn't have to be leaving the station, even coming off the booked train early consitutes this.

In your example above, there would be no valid ticket held between London Waterloo and Clapham Junction either if the ticket was only a Clapham Junction to Richmond ticket.

I understand how Megatrain operates and this is not what is being discussed here so that's irrelevant. The passenger in the scenario you mentioned is still depriving the TOC of revenue if they were to only pay the Oyster fare or ticket between Clapham and their destination rather than Waterloo, where they should have gone to in the first place.

 

[island]

If a passenger comes off their booked train on an Advance ticket, at any point before the destination on that ticket, then that ticket is no longer valid (except for change of trains on the itinerary, however that doesn't apply in this particular scenario). Hence why stopping short is not permitted on Advance tickets, it doesn't have to be leaving the station, even coming off the booked train early consitutes this.
.

Can you quote which part of the NRCoC or other official, public document says this please? In particular the part where it says the ticket is no longer valid, as it is my understanding that an excess fare would be payable in this scenario.

 

[clagmonster]

If a passenger comes off their booked train on an Advance ticket, at any point before the destination on that ticket, then that ticket is no longer valid (except for change of trains on the itinerary, however that doesn't apply in this particular scenario). Hence why stopping short is not permitted on Advance tickets, it doesn't have to be leaving the station, even coming off the booked train early consitutes this.

Where in the ticket conditions is this stated?

In your example above, there would be no valid ticket held between London Waterloo and Clapham Junction either if the ticket was only Clapham Junction to Richmond ticket.

The passenger would not travel between London Waterloo and Clapham Junction,they would travel Soton-Clapham-Richmond, so that is not an issue.
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Hence why stopping short is not permitted on Advance tickets, it doesn't have to be leaving the station, even coming off the booked train early consitutes this.

The conditions of carriage state:
"For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to:
(i) join a train at another station, or
(ii) stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s staff."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf page 12

No other allowance is made in the conditions for prohibiting break of journey on certain ticket types, so the stopping short does require the passenger to leave the station.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Can you quote which part of the NRCoC or other official, public document says this please? In particular the part where it says the ticket is no longer valid, as it is my understanding that an excess fare would be payable in this scenario.

Well now the person is sold an excess to the cheapest walk up fare for the journey (including Railcard discount) they had undertaken if wanting to "stop short" on an Advance ticket, it did used to warrant an undiscounted Anytime single.

With regards to the definition of a Break of Journey, I would consider that joining another train from the station where the passenger had alighted, that is not part of the itinerary of the Advance ticket, constitutes a Break of Journey as that passenger would be leaving the station, even if only by train.

 

[island]

Your first paragraph is noted.

With regards to your second, and with respect, I didn't ask what you would consider, but for a quotation from the NRCoC or another official public document.

 

[Tibbs]

If you buy an advance from A-C and a single from C-B, does that allow you to 'stop short' and travel from A-B directly?

 

[jb]

If you buy an advance from A-C and a single from C-B, does that allow you to 'stop short' and travel from A-B directly?

I think the consensus on here in the past has been: technically possibly dubious, but morally fine and also fine in practice (i.e. guards wouldn't require you to double-back).

 

[clagmonster]

With regards to the definition of a Break of Journey, I would consider that joining another train from the station where the passenger had alighted, that is not part of the itinerary of the Advance ticket, constitutes a Break of Journey as that passenger would be leaving the station, even if only by train.

The advance ticket conditions state:
"You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/ticket-conditions.aspx#90892
A travel itinerary for a Southampton-Richmond journey would show a change of train at Clapham Junction. Therefore, even if this is to be treated as a break of journey, which I don't believe it is, it is permitted by the ticket conditions.
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If you buy an advance from A-C and a single from C-B, does that allow you to 'stop short' and travel from A-B directly?

I assume your A-C train calls at B, and you are intending to alight at that point. In that case, unless station B is a compulsory ticket area, I would have to say no, as you are not using your C-B ticket at any point, so condition 19 can't apply, and you aren't changing to another train when you cease to use your advance ticket.

 

[tannedfrog]

Yes my online journey shows incomplete journey for both those instances, ie no record of me touching out / in respectively.

I don't remember if there was a beep or green light, but I am 95% sure the barriers opened for me at the time without already being open.

Well it happened again when exiting the same underground station! I passed my Oyster card over the reader, the barriers opened, the display on the side read "Exit. Seek Assistance".

I went through and immediately checked my journey history on the ticket machine. It showed a £4.90 charge. The barrier man confirmed this was an incomplete journey charge but could see I had touched in a few minutes earlier. He agreed to touch me out at the barriers and this corrected the journey history.

The barrier man was adamant I must have gone through behind someone else but there was no-one else, the barriers had opened for me with my Oyster card. He said that the only way I could have got through is by tailgating someone and that many people have got this off to a fine art. I thanked him for his help but remain unconvinced by the reliability of Oyster touches.

 

[Mojo]

You should always, always, always look at the light when touching in or out, this is the best way to ensure that you have definitely touched.

FWIW, a small number of new design of readers have been identified as opening for any ticket, regardless of validity. If you would care to state your station, either here, or by PM, I can check out if this is on the list.

 

[tannedfrog]

Thank you - I will PM the stations involved but they are not particularly new readers nor was there any validity problem.

Any lay person would surely conclude that barriers opening means the touch was successful! I won't now dare go on any FCC train using Oyster PAYG because if this happens the RPIs will laugh at me when I protest that I did touch in. I am unlikely to always remember to look for the green light.

 

[tsr]

You should always, always, always look at the light when touching in or out, this is the best way to ensure that you have definitely touched.

FWIW, a small number of new design of readers have been identified as opening for any ticket, regardless of validity. If you would care to state your station, either here, or by PM, I can check out if this is on the list.

That sounds marginally better than the time when the readers at the Merton Park, Phipps Bridge and East Croydon Tramlink stops showed "Board Tram" when any Oyster was presented, but did not display green lights and didn't actually read/write at all. I was very cross, as I nearly got presented with a PF as a result (fortunately, I was able to convince the inspector to do otherwise) and someone I know actually did get one. Tramlink acknowledged the problem in a very courteous email, and it seems to have been fixed.