Oyster touch not registering

[tannedfrog]

On two recent occasions I have used my Oyster to open (and walk through) barriers at tube stations, but finding subsequently that the touch had not registered.

I was only charged a maximum fare on those occasions so no major harm done but how can it be that a touch in/out does not register?

 

[yorkie]

I saw a defective barrier at Wimbledon on Wednesday. It was stuck open for a period of time. Someone touched on entry, and assumed it had worked (there were other barriers working and beeping, so difficult to work out if the beep is from your card reader!), but the light did not go green. So he was not touched in. It was not practicable for me to alert him to this fact (as I was the other side of the barrier by the time he had gone through).

However if your card actually opened the barrier, then that is different, and is very concerning! Have you checked your online journey history a day or two later?

Did you get the beep and green light?

Also I did a lot of journeys on my Oyster card today, and on many occasions the initial touch typically did not work, a subsequent touch did work though (and yes I know to hold the Oyster card flat and not wave it around)

 

[W230]

how can it be that a touch in/out does not register?

I've had similar problem recently, one at Finsbury park when interchanging onto the Victoria line. The Oyster reader would not accept my entrance and just kept saying "EXIT". It's possible that it hadn't exited properly earlier although half an hour had passed but when I touched out further down the Victoria line, I got a maximum fare charge also!

The other was at Hackney Downs when I was taking my bike on the train. GA platform staff told me to touch in and carry my bike through but as far as I could tell my Oyster hadn't touched in. I tried it another three times (as there wasn't even a beep) but the platform staff assured me I had touched in.

When I got off the train and touched out (no barriers) the reader showed "ENTER". GA staff sent me to the LUL office, who in turn didn't want to know but at least agreed to close the journey resulting in another maximum charge fare. Luckily I get PRIV Oyster so the cost was small but it's not about the cost it's about the fact I couldn't seem to get the Oyster card to read.

I have to concede though that i'm always thinking that the Oyster system is pretty infallible with touching in/out so have just come to the conclusion now that it's me doing something wrong when it doesn't work correctly!

 

[Realfish]

Interesting stuff this. I've been stopped a couple of times (both times at the top of the stairs at Wimbledon, en route from Hampton Court to Wimbledon Park (District Line)), and had my Oyster Card interrogated.

I've always been anxious on TFL journeys that the confirmation 'beeb' might not have been mine, or my two or three goes at tapping in might have tapped me out at the same time...and what might happen if the interrogation of the card had shown I had made a mistake.

But at the same time all Oyster account holders have received this from TFL :


Dear Mr Realfish,


I am writing to let you know that we have made a number of improvements to your Oyster online account.

With Oyster online, you can now receive weekly or monthly email statements and see your journey history for the last 8 weeks along with what you have paid.

You can also check if you have touched in and out on a train journey and whether or not you are able to apply for a refund online.

Love, Boris (made that bit up!)


So on one hand you can find yourself in trouble for not touching in / out, but on the other get yourself a refund (in fact when signing into your account you get an alert)

In my case: 'You do not currently have any incomplete journeys that are eligible for an online refund application.

If there are further incomplete journeys that you think may be eligible for a refund, please contact the Oyster helpline on 0845 330 9876 (8am-8pm daily).'


It all seems a bit schizophrenic

 

[MikeWh]

I've had similar problem recently, one at Finsbury park when interchanging onto the Victoria line. The Oyster reader would not accept my entrance and just kept saying "EXIT". It's possible that it hadn't exited properly earlier although half an hour had passed but when I touched out further down the Victoria line, I got a maximum fare charge also!

I think I can answer this one. Had you come from the same station that you later ended up at? Did you use your Oyster card in the half hour between touch out and attempted touch in? If the answers are yes and no respectively then you have encountered the continuation exit setting at Finsbury Park. You can read about it on my site (see signature below) on the same station and continuation exit page.

 

[yorkie]

I've had similar problem recently, one at Finsbury park when interchanging onto the Victoria line. The Oyster reader would not accept my entrance and just kept saying "EXIT". It's possible that it hadn't exited properly earlier although half an hour had passed but when I touched out further down the Victoria line, I got a maximum fare charge also!

If you have your Oyster card registered online, can you take a screenshot of your journey history on this day?

 

[tannedfrog]

However if your card actually opened the barrier, then that is different, and is very concerning! Have you checked your online journey history a day or two later?

Did you get the beep and green light?

Yes my online journey shows incomplete journey for both those instances, ie no record of me touching out / in respectively.

I don't remember if there was a beep or green light, but I am 95% sure the barriers opened for me at the time without already being open.

 

[MikeWh]

Yes my online journey shows incomplete journey for both those instances, ie no record of me touching out / in respectively.

I don't remember if there was a beep or green light, but I am 95% sure the barriers opened for me at the time without already being open.

The only time that the barriers will not open for exit is when you are getting an unstarted journey and you have a negative balance. Usually that means you took too long to make the journey (hence the first unfinished journey took you negative and the second unstarted journey failed) or you didn't touch out and back in again at the destination giving you a same station exit over 30 minutes.

In the case of Finsbury Park your initial exit will have been logged as will your attempt at entering half hour later. They will both be treated as a continuation exit joining your two journeys together. At the end of the journey you have an effective same station exit over 30 minutes. As long as you had enough credit the barriers will still open.

 

[CNash]

To avoid any doubt: you didn't accidentally tailgate the person in front? I've had that happen to me, and it can be difficult to work out exactly what's happened if there's a crush of people all trying to get through behind you.

 

[87 027]

Is there some sort of technical or diagnostic report that shows which when a card has registered a contact with a card reader at a particular location? This would not be the same as the journey history, but could be requested where the customer believes they touched in/out but the journey history doesn't show this.

Like the OP I had a journey recently where the gate opened normally at the end of my journey (it was a straightforward exit at Baker Street) and it wasn't until a few days later that I was alerted to the incomplete journey. It was one of those wide bi-directional luggage gates and the light on the reader alternates between orange and red which I have always presumed to mean that the reader operates on each side only half the time when the light is orange

Sent from my Lumia 920 using Board Express

 

[Be3G]

I once had an experience where I was 100% certain there was a technical glitch with the Oyster system, and their customer services ended up agreeing with me too. I was making a journey from Turkey Street to Chafford Hundred via Seven Sisters/South Tottenham and Barking, with the following touches:

In: Turkey Street
Out: Seven Sisters
…(OSI)…
In: South Tottenham
Out: Chafford Hundred

There were no staff in the western concourse at Seven Sisters, and the manual gate was open too, so rather than going through the automatic ticket barriers I passed through the manual gate and used the standalone validator next to that gate (not the ones in the passage from the concourse to the NR trains, which so many people seem to mistakenly use, although I know the Oyster system can correct for that). Bizarrely, the standalone validator thought I was entering the system, not exiting. Which, in turn, meant that the validator at South Tottenham thought I was making an exit, resulting in me effectively travelling ticketless from South Tottenham to Chafford Hundred, though no fault of my own. I'm glad I didn't bump in to a ticket inspector!

When discussing it with someone at the Oyster help desk a few days later it was deemed that I had touched in/out correctly, so the Oyster person was baffled as to how/why it happened. Nevertheless, since then I've made a point of always choosing gates rather than a manual validator, as gates know for certain whether you're entering or exiting so they can't make that same mistake.

The point of this post, anyway, is to say that despite the fact most apparent glitches with the Oyster system can be explained as being the result of intended but unusual circumstances (e.g. as with the Finsbury Park continuation exit issue discussed above), occasionally the Oyster system does throw up a genuine technical glitch.

 

[yorkie]

Here's a strange one:

Journey: ???? - 16:34 [No touch in] to Barking

Journey 14:59 - ???? North Greenwich to [No touch-out]
1611 Touch in, Fenchurch St [National Rail#
1601 Touch out, Tower Gateway DLR
1459 Touch in, North Greenwich

(or see attachment)

Could this be because there is an OSI, so it tried to link the two journeys into one journey, but there was no fare for the through journey?

 

[W230]

I think I can answer this one. Had you come from the same station that you later ended up at? Did you use your Oyster card in the half hour between touch out and attempted touch in? If the answers are yes and no respectively then you have encountered the continuation exit setting at Finsbury Park. You can read about it on my site (see signature below) on the same station and continuation exit page.

Hmmm. I'll log in and have a look if I get a chance. Obviously the GA journey can be explained as it never touched in.

The Finsbury Park journey on my Oyster was:

TOM -ZFD (full journey by tube) or maybe BFR - can't remember.
Maybe half an hour later: FPK -TOM.

I'm wondering if it got confused as to how I had got to FPK so quickly after exiting at ZFD/BFR?

 

[MikeWh]

Here's a strange one:

Journey: ???? - 16:34 [No touch in] to Barking

Journey 14:59 - ???? North Greenwich to [No touch-out]
1611 Touch in, Fenchurch St [National Rail#
1601 Touch out, Tower Gateway DLR
1459 Touch in, North Greenwich

(or see attachment)

Could this be because there is an OSI, so it tried to link the two journeys into one journey, but there was no fare for the through journey?

That is the classic example of an OSI making two journeys into one but taking much longer than it should. North Greenwich to Barking is defined as a 2 zone journey allowing 80 minutes at the time you made it. You took 95 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmmm. I'll log in and have a look if I get a chance. Obviously the GA journey can be explained as it never touched in.

The Finsbury Park journey on my Oyster was:

TOM -ZFD (full journey by tube) or maybe BFR - can't remember.
Maybe half an hour later: FPK -TOM.

I'm wondering if it got confused as to how I had got to FPK so quickly after exiting at ZFD/BFR?

That's an odd one. Farringdon does indeed also have continuation exit set, but it should only be for the validators. Did you leave the station without using a gate? And I'm curious, how did you get to Finsbury Park so quickly?

Having said all that, I agree that what you describe would also fool the system into thinking you'd made a same station exit at Tottenham Hale.

 

[W230]

Did you leave the station without using a gate?

I normally touch out on Platform 3 and continue to BFR with FCC. If there is a train waiting though I touch out at BFR when I get there instead as I can never seem to find the Oyster valuidator on Platform 3 when i'm in a hurry and it costs the same either way.

And I'm curious, how did you get to Finsbury Park so quickly?

BFR - STP, leg it across the road, KGX - FPK. For no other reason than boredom!

Having said all that, I agree that what you describe would also fool the system into thinking you'd made a same station exit at Tottenham Hale.

Bit confused here! Might have to explain that bit for me.

Just trying to find the journey on my Oyster now as i'm intrigued...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think this was the journey. I still can't make full sense of what's going on here though it does at least explain the Oyster reader at FPK consistently saying EXIT despite me trying to touch in.

 

[MikeWh]

I still can't make full sense of what's going on here though it does at least explain the Oyster reader at FPK consistently saying EXIT despite me trying to touch in.

Right. Touch in at Tottenham Hale at 0810, touch out at Farringdon at 0830 with continuation exit set. This means that any further touches on validators will continue the journey until the maximum journey time for the journey made is passed. In this case it's 110 minutes. Thus your touch out at Finsbury Park was treated as a continuation, and because it is also a station with continuation exit set on the validators, the journey was still open. Next you tried to touch out at Walthamstow Central at 0925. Trouble is, it's trying to charge for a journey from Tottenham Hale which is now only allowed 70 minutes and you've taken 75, so it treats it as an unstarted journey with a maximum fare. The previous journey was correctly ended at Finsbury Park as you made no further touches within maximum journey time relative to the overall journey being attempted at the time of the touch out. Had your next destination been Cockfosters then you'd have been ok as you're then on a 5 zone journey (from Tottenham Hale via Finsbury Park).

I guess you have a pass for FCC services and only use the Oyster for LU which has certainly contributed to the problem. If you explain youir whole journey to the helpdesk, mentioning your free travel on FCC, they should agree to issue a correcting refund.

 

[W230]

Trouble is, it's trying to charge for a journey from Tottenham Hale which is now only allowed 70 minutes and you've taken 75, so it treats it as an unstarted journey with a maximum fare. The previous journey was correctly ended at Finsbury Park as you made no further touches within maximum journey time relative to the overall journey being attempted at the time of the touch out. Had your next destination been Cockfosters then you'd have been ok as you're then on a 5 zone journey (from Tottenham Hale via Finsbury Park).

Ah! I didn't know there was such a thing as continuation exit. So I assume had I used the barriers at BFR instead of the validator at ZFD then this wouldn't have happened?

I'm still a bit confused about which journey is it saying i'm allowed 70 minutes for, TOM - WHC (via ZFD & FPK)? Seems more than a little generous...and random.

I guess you have a pass for FCC services and only use the Oyster for LU which has certainly contributed to the problem. If you explain youir whole journey to the helpdesk, mentioning your free travel on FCC, they should agree to issue a correcting refund.

Yep. Though i'm not too bothered about it now. Don't know if they would refund it with it being ages ago anyway or whether it would turn into a long protracted phonecall with me trying to explain why I had taken such a random route! I got a very small refund once last year at a LUL booth when passing and something worked out wrong - the man serving me wanted to know why I bothered over such a small amount when I had PRIV and was saving loads anyway, so i've been too embarassed to go back but I still like to understand how the system works.

After delving deeper into my journey history it appears that the journey I highlighted in my last post was not the actual one I remembered (I didn't know I had been charged on the WHC journey). I kept on looking this morning and found this journey below - this is the one where I actually noticed Oyster wouldn't let me touch in at FPK. I guess it is the same situation though, with exit at TOM?

 

[MikeWh]

Ah! I didn't know there was such a thing as continuation exit. So I assume had I used the barriers at BFR instead of the validator at ZFD then this wouldn't have happened?

Yes, exiting at Blackfriars would solve the problem as that hasn't got continuation exit. CE is not something TfL like to talk about much because it's complicated and 99% of the time it silently solves problems for them. The main benefit is places like Ealing Broadway where people would touch a platform validator and then be stuck trying to exit the gates. The concern is that I am aware of at least one case where a passenger was incorrectly given a penalty fare because the hand-held scanners thought he was out when the system would correctly adjust things when he finally did exit.

I'm still a bit confused about which journey is it saying i'm allowed 70 minutes for, TOM - WHC (via ZFD & FPK)? Seems more than a little generous...and random.

Not really. When your journey has been joined together by continuation exits and/or OSIs you end up at the final touch out being charged for the whole journey. In the case of TOM-WHC there is only one reasonable/sensible route which is a one zone journey. They have to allow quite a lot of extra time because there are some long one zone journeys (eg Caterham to Tattenham Corner via Purley) and you might have to wait a while for a train to arrive.

After delving deeper into my journey history it appears that the journey I highlighted in my last post was not the actual one I remembered (I didn't know I had been charged on the WHC journey). I kept on looking this morning and found this journey below - this is the one where I actually noticed Oyster wouldn't let me touch in at FPK. I guess it is the same situation though, with exit at TOM?

Almost. Because you had come back in a circle to the same station it only allows up to 30 minutes. Within those 2-30 minutes you are charged the cheapest single fare available at the time of travel, but after 30 minutes it becomes 2 incomplete journeys. Except that the first incomplete journey had actually been completed at Finsbury Park, so you only got 1 incomplete journey charge. Full details are on the same station and continuation exits page on my site.

 

[Harlesden]

At Finsbury Park I'm wondering how the Oyster system copes with an unknowing passenger touching in at the bottom of the stairs and then getting upstairs and finding himself confronted by ticket gates requiring a second touch in

 

[TonyR]

But at the same time all Oyster account holders have received this from TFL :


Dear Mr Realfish,


I am writing to let you know that we have made a number of improvements to your Oyster online account.

With Oyster online, you can now receive weekly or monthly email statements and see your journey history for the last 8 weeks along with what you have paid.

You can also check if you have touched in and out on a train journey and whether or not you are able to apply for a refund online.

Love, Boris (made that bit up!)


So on one hand you can find yourself in trouble for not touching in / out, but on the other get yourself a refund (in fact when signing into your account you get an alert)

In my case: 'You do not currently have any incomplete journeys that are eligible for an online refund application.

If there are further incomplete journeys that you think may be eligible for a refund, please contact the Oyster helpline on 0845 330 9876 (8am-8pm daily).'


It all seems a bit schizophrenic

Schizophrenic or not I've found the on-line refund very easy and efficient. It's usually caused for me by having a work and a personal Oyster Card in the same fold out wallet and the wrong one registering so the journey starts on one and ends on the other. But simply and quickly rectified on-line.

 

[MikeWh]

At Finsbury Park I'm wondering how the Oyster system copes with an unknowing passenger touching in at the bottom of the stairs and then getting upstairs and finding himself confronted by ticket gates requiring a second touch in

The validators at the bottom of the stairs are for the Underground station now. However, there is special programming at Finsbury Park which allows someone already in the Oyster system to enter through the gates to the NR platforms. This is mainly because there are no gates on the LU station and they don't want people having to go the wrong way back down the stairs just because they didn't touch out. The only issue is that the balance displayed on entry to the NR platforms will be less the incomplete journey charge. Don't worry about it because it will all be sorted on touch out, but it does induce some strange expressions the first time it happens to people.

 

[High Dyke]

The validators at the bottom of the stairs are for the Underground station now. However, there is special programming at Finsbury Park which allows someone already in the Oyster system to enter through the gates to the NR platforms. This is mainly because there are no gates on the LU station and they don't want people having to go the wrong way back down the stairs just because they didn't touch out. The only issue is that the balance displayed on entry to the NR platforms will be less the incomplete journey charge. Don't worry about it because it will all be sorted on touch out, but it does induce some strange expressions the first time it happens to people.

That boosts my confidence no end...:roll: I don't visit often enough to use my oyster, but find it useful when i do. In the past i've been charged the maximum charge / penalty fee whatever it's called - had problems when changing stations at West Hampstead.

Did have an issue at Richmond once because i transferred from SWT (Priv) to LUL (Oyster) without exiting the station, but needed to touch in.

 

[jopsuk]

Hopefully they'll eventually manage the rebuild that will allow them to just barrier the entrances...

 

[benk1342]

The validators at the bottom of the stairs are for the Underground station now.

Strictly speaking I think the validators at the bottom of the stairs are also officially for NR platform 3, which has no barriers. Of course it would be a rare train that called at platform 3 on the fast and then stopped again within the zones.

 

[W230]

Did have an issue at Richmond once because i transferred from SWT (Priv) to LUL (Oyster) without exiting the station, but needed to touch in.

Interesting. I had the same problem at Stratford when exiting a GA service and getting on an Overground service. I was looking all over the platform for a validator but could only find the pink interchange readers on the Overground platforms when I got there. Seeing no other option I tried to touch in on these - it did seem to charge me the right amount though but I was confused as I didn't know you could touch in on the pink readers.

 

[Mojo]

Interesting. I had the same problem at Stratford when exiting a GA service and getting on an Overground service. I was looking all over the platform for a validator but could only find the pink interchange readers on the Overground platforms when I got there. Seeing no other option I tried to touch in on these - it did seem to charge me the right amount though but I was confused as I didn't know you could touch in on the pink readers.

You can now start a journey on the Pink validators but I do not think this has always been the case.

Aside from the platform 3/4 island, I'm not sure exactly where there are validators at Stratford, I don't know the place that well!

The situation at Richmond is rather perverse, as surely the station is quite popular for interchanges between South West Trains and the District Railway.

 

[MikeWh]

You can now start a journey on the Pink validators but I do not think this has always been the case.

That's interesting. I didn't know that. Presumably you can't end them?

Aside from the platform 3/4 island, I'm not sure exactly where there are validators at Stratford, I don't know the place that well!

There's one in the Jubilee line concourse I think, and several near the DLR terminus from Pudding Mill Lane.

The situation at Richmond is rather perverse, as surely the station is quite popular for interchanges between South West Trains and the District Railway.

If what I've heard about SWT and Clapham Junction is correct then it doesn't surprise me. Apparently SWT won't allow any validators at Clapham Junction as they fear revenue loss.

 

[causton]

That's interesting. I didn't know that. Presumably you can't end them?


There's one in the Jubilee line concourse I think, and several near the DLR terminus from Pudding Mill Lane.


If what I've heard about SWT and Clapham Junction is correct then it doesn't surprise me. Apparently SWT won't allow any validators at Clapham Junction as they fear revenue loss.

I found out by accident the pink validator touch in at Willesden Junction. Holding a paper travelcard I read the notice saying "Do not use to touch in" and I wondered why
... I touched out at Euston after taking a DC line train and it registered as a normal journey!

And I was going to jokingly make a comment about Clapham Junction and it being a SWT thing, but I think it might be true!

 

[CNash]

But surely the only revenue SWT would lose by allowing validators at Clapham Junction would be revenue they were never truly entitled to in the first place? It's only because of the assumptions made by the Oyster system when it doesn't have enough data to know which route you've taken that it will "overcharge" you. Do SWT have the right to reap the benefits of customers not being charged correctly for the journeys they've undertaken?

 

[MikeWh]

But surely the only revenue SWT would lose by allowing validators at Clapham Junction would be revenue they were never truly entitled to in the first place? It's only because of the assumptions made by the Oyster system when it doesn't have enough data to know which route you've taken that it will "overcharge" you. Do SWT have the right to reap the benefits of customers not being charged correctly for the journeys they've undertaken?

And what about people who come in from further out with a ticket to somewhere not far from their origin, get off at Clapham Junction, touch in, get on next train to Waterloo and touch out?