Oyster to Gatwick

[FenMan]

My gut feeling is that it will be Gatwick Express trains only as Southern have their own smartcards (The Key)

Sarahj's post explicitly states:-

Info has gone up at work about the Oyster extension to Gatwick. The date of operation has not been confirmed, but it will cover the intermediate stations between Coulsdon South and Gatwick. Some fares are now showing on TVM's and readers etc are going in.

Garwick Express does not call at Coulsdon South or other intermediate stations to Gatwick that are currently outside of the Zones.

 

[higthomas]

What will the pricing structure be? Will Thameslink only fares etc. not be available.

 

[swt_passenger]

What will the pricing structure be? Will Thameslink only fares etc. not be available.

If it is to be normal PAYG operator specific fares would be impossible.

 

[tsr]

A rollout date is indeed not confirmed due to technical issues with the rollout. Soon you should be able to use Oyster at TVMs at all stations between Merstham and Gatwick Airport, but not actually use it to travel on trains (yep, it's that weird...).

Full pay as you go travel functionality is still coming for all those stations, however.

 

[yorkie]

My gut feeling is that it will be Gatwick Express trains only as Southern have their own smartcards (The Key)

This post does not make sense. I don't see why GTR trains branded 'Gatwick Express' will be the only services to accept them and there is no provision in the rules for this, but any further discussion on ticket validity across any of this Company's brands should be made in Govia Thameslink Railway: Issues regarding ticket validity across brands please. Thanks.http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=120117

 

[MikeWh]

A rollout date is indeed not confirmed due to technical issues with the rollout. Soon you should be able to use Oyster at TVMs at all stations between Merstham and Gatwick Airport, but not actually use it to travel on trains (yep, it's that weird...).

Full pay as you go travel functionality is still coming for all those stations, however.

I know GTR are between a rock and a hard place with this issue, but this really is going to make things worse. Why they can't just tell DaFT that it can't be extended to Gatwick until Oyster has gone back-office is beyond me.

This post does not make sense. I don't see why GTR trains branded 'Gatwick Express' will be the only services to accept them and there is no provision in the rules for this, but any further discussion on ticket validity across any of this Company's brands should be made in Govia Thameslink Railway: Issues regarding ticket validity across brands please. Thanks.http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=120117

I agree with what you're saying, but Oyster to Gatwick is somewhat different to other issues surrounding brands. It has been suggested that an interim solution might be to advertise that the Gatwick Express fare can be paid using Oyster in the same way that STP-SFA can now be paid, without affecting caps of course. This lessens the chance that people will try to use Oyster at the intermediate stations. As long as revenue checks on other services are happy if Oyster/CPCs are presented then I don't see an issue using them. It'll still be messy though, and I stand by my assertion that Oyster shouldn't go south of Coulsdon until the back-office has been rolled out.

 

[infobleep]

I know GTR are between a rock and a hard place with this issue, but this really is going to make things worse. Why they can't just tell DaFT that it can't be extended to Gatwick until Oyster has gone back-office is beyond me.


I agree with what you're saying, but Oyster to Gatwick is somewhat different to other issues surrounding brands. It has been suggested that an interim solution might be to advertise that the Gatwick Express fare can be paid using Oyster in the same way that STP-SFA can now be paid, without affecting caps of course. This lessens the chance that people will try to use Oyster at the intermediate stations. As long as revenue checks on other services are happy if Oyster/CPCs are presented then I don't see an issue using them. It'll still be messy though, and I stand by my assertion that Oyster shouldn't go south of Coulsdon until the back-office has been rolled out.

What happens if you try to use Oyster to Redhill? Also what happens if you touch in at Redhill using Oyster or even out, having travelled on a train that it isn't valid for?

I guess if their was disruption and a Gatwick Express train stopped at Redhill, then it might be valid. This assumes Gatwick Express services ever stop at Redhill during disruptions. I don't know if they do.

 

[andrewkeith5]

It's occured to me that the current limit of the extremities of the KeyGo area for the Southern Key Card is officially the travelcard boundary - hence why you can't get to Croydon with KeyGo.

I wonder whether this is a technical restriction or whether Southern just assume people don't want to use Pay as You Go to get to the Oyster PAYG areas...I certainly would, and I'd be interested to see what Oyster to Gatwick will do about it...

 

[MikeWh]

What happens if you try to use Oyster to Redhill? Also what happens if you touch in at Redhill using Oyster or even out, having travelled on a train that it isn't valid for?

I guess if their was disruption and a Gatwick Express train stopped at Redhill, then it might be valid. This assumes Gatwick Express services ever stop at Redhill during disruptions. I don't know if they do.

I don't think you quite understand the issue. There are no more zones to allocate stations to until the Oyster system moves to back-office processing and you aren't restricted by the physical card capabilities. There is a big desire to allow Oyster to be used to Gatwick Airport. They could allocate a special fare (like they've done with St Pancras to Stratford Intl or the cable car or the river boats) which wouldn't be included in the daily capping system. This would only be applicable for London to Gatwick. The suggestion is that this might be marketed as a Gatwick Express fare. It would still be valid on other services, but only if travelling from London (possibly Victoria) to Gatwick. There would be no Oyster facilities at other stations south of zone 6 so it would not be possible to touch in or out at Redhill.

 

[infobleep]

I don't think you quite understand the issue. There are no more zones to allocate stations to until the Oyster system moves to back-office processing and you aren't restricted by the physical card capabilities. There is a big desire to allow Oyster to be used to Gatwick Airport. They could allocate a special fare (like they've done with St Pancras to Stratford Intl or the cable car or the river boats) which wouldn't be included in the daily capping system. This would only be applicable for London to Gatwick. The suggestion is that this might be marketed as a Gatwick Express fare. It would still be valid on other services, but only if travelling from London (possibly Victoria) to Gatwick. There would be no Oyster facilities at other stations south of zone 6 so it would not be possible to touch in or out at Redhill.

OK thanks for that. I misunderstood other people's responses and thought readers were being installed elsewhere.

 

[Feathers44]

OK thanks for that. I misunderstood other people's responses and thought readers were being installed elsewhere.

As did I. I'm struggling to make sense of what's poposed here.

 

[Stats]

Whats being proposed is Oyster PAYG being introduced at all intermediate stations betwee Z6 boundary and Gatwick Airport. Unfortunately, its rollout is being delayed by the complex fare calculations to Gatwick. Last I heard DFT, GTR and TfL were in weekly discussions to resolve the issue and introduce it asap.

 

[Feathers44]

Whats being proposed is Oyster PAYG being introduced at all intermediate stations betwee Z6 boundary and Gatwick Airport. Unfortunately, its rollout is being delayed by the complex fare calculations to Gatwick. Last I heard DFT, GTR and TfL were in weekly discussions to resolve the issue and introduce it asap.

Ah, OK. That's back where I started from then. It was the comment about using Oyster on the TVMs but not on the trains that really confused me. Coupled with MikeWh's comment earlier, I believe I now understand what's required, what's possible and what may be happening.

Messy in the short term then.

(On the up side, when we actually get Oyster to Gatwick, that and a 30 minute walk on the end would be useful alternative way of getting to work if the fare was palateable.)

 

[JonathanH]

It seems that the local rail user's association had a meeting with the Rail Minister yesterday about their (frankly ridiculous) concept of zone 6 being extended to include Reigate and Redhill.

http://www.surreymirror.co.uk/SIGN-PETITION/story-28027736-detail/story.html

It is clear that Oyster should be extended into the area when the administrative issues are resolved but at something consistent with current fares, ie around £12ish peak single to London and £7-8 off peak, £5 peak / £3 off-peak single to Croydon etc.

The point is that the market from Redhill and Reigate supports the current fares. Yes, people moan but they still travel and the trains are well loaded. If they didn't, the 405 bus would be overloaded at all times of the day with people seeking to avoid the train fares from Redhill.

 

[James Wake]

Sometimes as I hold a free Tfl bus operator pass I use the 405 from West Croydon down to Redhill to then catch a bus (at extra cost) or train (with my separate annual season) to Crawley. The 405s can be busy sometimes from Redhill, but at 6-8pm in the evening arriving in Redhill, there is never normally more than a dozen people on each journey. Once it was only me that alighted at Redhill Bus Stn.

 

[Be3G]

I don't think you quite understand the issue. There are no more zones to allocate stations to until the Oyster system moves to back-office processing and you aren't restricted by the physical card capabilities. There is a big desire to allow Oyster to be used to Gatwick Airport. They could allocate a special fare (like they've done with St Pancras to Stratford Intl or the cable car or the river boats) which wouldn't be included in the daily capping system. This would only be applicable for London to Gatwick.

This is an area where you'll have more intricate knowledge of the system than me, but I don't actually see what's stopping Oyster from being rolled out to all of the intermediate stations, without capping? Presumably that would just require extra non-cappable fares to be defined without the zonal capacity limit being an issue. Or is it the case that the two are so closely linked that it isn't possible to define lots of non-cappable fares?

Either way, I don't think everyone should be equating ‘accepts Oyster’ to ‘accepts capping’. Gatwick is some way from London, with some premium fares too. There is currently no paper equivalent of an Oyster cap (as an outboundary travelcard only allows one return journey from the origin to boundary zone 6) so my assumption would be that any extension would work in the same way as HS1, albeit with OSIs honoured this time (I hope).

 

[swt_passenger]

AIUI each different discrete fare where 'special fares apply' still has to be in a 'pseudo-zone' for the system to operate. The obvious example is the 'unmapped' Zone W for Watford Junction.

If, hypothetically, the fare to Gatwick was the same as the fare to Watford Junction, then it could be put in Zone W as well. If the required Gatwick fare is higher than all other existing fares, then it would need its own zone. The same would apply to intermediate stations down the line.

Numbered Zones 7, 8 and 9 are also available, but the fares may not necessarily give a progressive increase over the relevant distance, IYSWIM.

The precedent of putting Brentford in Zone 9, with no station in Zone 7 or 8, is also there - which rather discounts the idea (mentioned a few posts above) of just extending zone 6 down the line...

 

[Be3G]

AIUI each different discrete fare where 'special fares apply' still has to be in a 'pseudo-zone' for the system to operate. The obvious example is the 'unmapped' Zone W for Watford Junction.

The difference there, though, is that Watford Junction fares are capped; i.e. there is a 1–W cap, which does necessitate a pseudo-zone. That doesn't mean you're wrong of course, but it does mean we can't necessarily go from past examples as we don't have one for a line with multiple stations but not integrated in to the capping structure.

As an extension of my previous post, the more I think about it the more sense I think it makes that there won't be capping to Gatwick. If there's no capping then it makes it more viable for different pricing structures to be used by the different TOCs, e.g. the Oyster single from Victoria to Gatwick could be different to that from London Bridge, and also different to a fare from (say) Shoreditch High Street changing at Norwood Junction. This allows a partial reproduction of the different route prices, whereas if capping were introduced it would cancel out some of the pricing differences – unless the caps were set too high to be useful, anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

The difference there, though, is that Watford Junction fares are capped; i.e. there is a 1–W cap, which does necessitate a pseudo-zone. That doesn't mean you're wrong of course, but it does mean we can't necessarily go from past examples as we don't have one for a line with multiple stations but not integrated in to the capping structure.

Don't all the other recent extensions outside existing zones already include daily capping though? HS1 between St Pancras and Stratford seems to be the only addition that isn't part of the capping system, AIUI. Perhaps expecting Gatwick not to be capped is an incorrect assumption?

 

[Be3G]

They do, yes, as such expecting Gatwick to not offer capping is merely a personal belief based on distance, technological limitations and financial constraints. I will be more than happy if the TOCs prove me wrong though because I'm never going to complain about saving money!

 

[JaJaWa]

Gatwick is coming soon, as it will be priced as a single fare Gatwick Airport to/from London Victoria, just as Southeastern high speed is priced as a single fare Stratford Intentional to/from London St Pancras, and the Emirates Air Line is priced as a single fare.

Obviously, this isn't a great solution, and wouldn't work for any of the other stations on the line as people will be travelling to stations other than London Victoria and will want through fares and caps.

The other stations are coming in 2016, when TfL will have an unlimited number of zones and fares to utilise as they please.

 

[infobleep]

Could they not have added all immediate stations in the same zone or fare as Gatwick. Yes they would be more expensive than a paper ticket might be but they could sell it on convince and the fact in time prices all come down?

It wouldn't be popular but then not having intermediate stations I clouded isn't exactly popular.

 

[Minstral25]

I don't think you quite understand the issue. There are no more zones to allocate stations to until the Oyster system moves to back-office processing and you aren't restricted by the physical card capabilities. There is a big desire to allow Oyster to be used to Gatwick Airport. They could allocate a special fare (like they've done with St Pancras to Stratford Intl or the cable car or the river boats) which wouldn't be included in the daily capping system. This would only be applicable for London to Gatwick. The suggestion is that this might be marketed as a Gatwick Express fare. It would still be valid on other services, but only if travelling from London (possibly Victoria) to Gatwick. There would be no Oyster facilities at other stations south of zone 6 so it would not be possible to touch in or out at Redhill.

Oyster readers are being installed currently at Stations between Merstham and Gatwick. I have seen a photo of one installed at Earlswood Station - although it is currently out of use.

Reigate station is strangely excluded although currently its fares link with Redhill.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems that the local rail user's association had a meeting with the Rail Minister yesterday about their (frankly ridiculous) concept of zone 6 being extended to include Reigate and Redhill.

http://www.surreymirror.co.uk/SIGN-PETITION/story-28027736-detail/story.html

It is clear that Oyster should be extended into the area when the administrative issues are resolved but at something consistent with current fares, ie around £12ish peak single to London and £7-8 off peak, £5 peak / £3 off-peak single to Croydon etc.

The point is that the market from Redhill and Reigate supports the current fares. Yes, people moan but they still travel and the trains are well loaded. If they didn't, the 405 bus would be overloaded at all times of the day with people seeking to avoid the train fares from Redhill.

Being local I fully support the campaign. However it is more complex than Zone 6. Fares at Redhill are highly complex and significantly more expensive than other stations locally including Gatwick yet our trains are full of Gatwick passengers avoiding the overcharge on the Gatwick Express but travelling cheaper than we can.

Redhill route stations are the only stations on the Brighton Main line where passenger usage is apparently falling. However this is because Redhill users are getting wiser and using Dorking and Gatwick tickets rather than Redhill tickets which are more expensive. In actual fact from using the trains the overcrowding is getting worse as more people use Redhill stations.

Oyster is an opportunity to redress the unfair fares at Redhill and get a fairer pricing system in place. There is a lot of History why the fares are more expensive at Redhill but none of the reasons apply any more and it needs to be sorted out. I am aware a lot of other stations just outside the Oyster Zones around London have the same issue. It's probably time for Zones 7 and 8 to be created for the commuter hubs.

Over 3,000 people locally signed the petition as they are fed up with subsidising London zones and passengers further out on the Brighton line who get better services. It's more than just getting Zones to Redhill its about putting in a fair fare system.

Zone 6 for Redhill is also about proper compensation for the London Bridge works which are devastating local services in both significant overcrowding, 50% plus extended journey times in peaks and constant failures of infrastructure.

 

[JaJaWa]

Posting this here too for prosperity. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/contactless-payments-and-oyster-to-make-travel-to-and-from-gatwick-airport-seamless:

Contactless payments and Oyster to make travel to and from Gatwick Airport seamless
From: Department for Transport and Claire Perry MP First published:10 November 2015
Gatwick Airport and 5 other stations to accept pay as you go Oyster and contactless payments.
Oyster card.

• thousands of rail customers to benefit from the convenience of new ticketing at Gatwick Airport from January 2016
• pay as you go with Oyster and contactless payment will be accepted at Gatwick Airport and 5 other stations along the route
• Southern, Gatwick Express and Thameslink passengers to benefit from government agreement with Transport for London (TfL) and Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR)

Passengers travelling between Gatwick Airport and London will soon be able to use pay as you go, Rail Minister Claire Perry confirmed today (Tuesday 10 November 2015), thanks to an agreement between the government, Transport for London (TfL) and the operator, Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR).

Pay as you go using Oyster and Contactless payments will be introduced as new methods of payment from January 2016 for journeys between London and Gatwick Airport on Southern, Gatwick Express and Thameslink services. Five other stations along the route - Horley, Salfords, Earlswood, Redhill and Merstham – will also benefit from the up-to-the-minute pay as you go ticket technology.

This will mean more convenience and flexibility for commuters and visitors alike, with improved value for money in many cases, and reduced crowding at stations. It will also allow seamless onward connections to London’s transport network and National Rail services.

Rail Minister Claire Perry said:

• Our plan for passengers is to build a 21st century railway that provides better journeys for all, and improved ticketing is a vital part of that customer experience.

This extension of Oyster and contactless embraces some of the latest technology, making journeys easier for customers, offering them a vastly more convenient option. As we undertake the biggest rail modernisation since the Victorian era, improving London to Gatwick by rail is another step to a modern railway that strengthens the economy.

The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson MP, said:

• By providing a quick and easy way to pay, our Oyster and contactless ticketing has transformed the way people get around our capital. We’ve already extended this on a number of key routes outside of London and it makes perfect sense for Londoners, commuters and passengers from around the world to benefit from this further link to Gatwick Airport. It’s great news that more people than ever before will be able to benefit from our pioneering modern ticketing system.

From the New Year, many customers will be able to benefit from cheaper fares. Currently, a single journey paper peak-time ticket costs £15.40 from London Terminals to Gatwick Airport (excluding Gatwick Express). With pay as you go, a rush hour trip will cost £14.00 and £8.00 off-peak.

Since contactless payments were introduced on the TfL network in September 2014, there have been more than 220 million contactless journeys made. Each day there are over one million contactless journeys on London’s transport system. One in ten contactless transactions in the UK are made on TfL’s services, making TfL one of the largest Contactless merchants worldwide.

TfL’s Director of Customer Experience, Shashi Verma, said:

• Expanding Oyster and the Contactless ticketing system to Gatwick Airport is a great step forward. Nearly 25 per cent of our pay as you go customers use contactless payment already because it is so quick and easy. Already customers from 70 countries across the world are using their contactless payment cards on the capital’s transport network. We are committed to making paying for transport easier for everyone and this extension will allow travellers from across the world to quickly jump on a train to central London and start their holiday or business trip with minimum fuss.

Gatwick Express Passenger Services Director, Angie Doll, said: “We are delighted that our passengers will be able to use pay as you go to travel between Gatwick Airport and London. This is yet another example of how we are making it easier for our passengers to travel by National Rail using state-of-the-art payment technology, and one of many customer benefits we are introducing and delivering across GTR such as a new Gatwick Express train fleet, 1,400 new carriages for the Thameslink programme and a £50m investment on improving our stations.”

Gatwick Airport’s Chief Commercial Officer, Guy Stephenson, said:

• Gatwick’s passengers will welcome the introduction of Oyster and contactless payments at the airport as the most convenient way to pay for onward rail travel to London. It means a single ticketless system will link Gatwick with the whole of Greater London so passengers can benefit from seamless connections to and throughout the capital.
  
• This technology will make journeys easier and ticketing considerably faster. Passengers with contactless bank or credit cards, for example, will simply need to touch the Oyster readers without having to queue for a ticket or even top up their Oyster card.

This announcement comes at an exciting time for rail access to Gatwick with world class improvements being introduced. Within the next five years new fleets of Gatwick Express and Thameslink trains will come in to service, Gatwick station will be re-developed and train capacity will be doubled.

Other fares include:

• Gatwick Express single journey on pay as you go will be £19.80. The current single fare when purchased at London Gatwick or London Victoria is £19.90.
• Redhill to London Victoria or London Bridge single journey on pay as you go will be £10.30 peak and £5.80 off-peak. The current anytime day single is £10.50.
• East Croydon to Gatwick Airport single journey on pay as you go will be £5.20 peak and £3.00 off-peak. The current paper anytime single (excl. Thameslink only fares) is £5.20.

All existing peak and off-peak fares, advance fares, period fares, and group ticket offers from Gatwick Airport will be maintained, including the special Thameslink only fares offers. These may cost less than pay as you go and customers are advised to check online in advance.

Another change of plan from TfL.

 

[ert47]

Looking at the cost of a single journey with Gatwick Express on Oyster makes me dread to think what the maximum charge could be if not tapped in properly.

 

[andrewkeith5]

From what I've just seen, it appears that basically we'll all be paying double now, as it's all single fares which are only a few pence cheaper than returns which Oyster doesn't really do....

 

[Feathers44]

Presumably the Express or not-Express fare will be selected based on the entry/exit gateline used at Victoria. Is there any scope for problems there? (I don't know Victoria that well).

 

[JaJaWa]

From what I've just seen, it appears that basically we'll all be paying double now, as it's all single fares which are only a few pence cheaper than returns which Oyster doesn't really do....

Yes, there goes me thinking it was going to be half the return fare!

 

[andrewkeith5]

Presumably the Express or not-Express fare will be selected based on the entry/exit gateline used at Victoria. Is there any scope for problems there? (I don't know Victoria that well).

I imagine so, they tend to use different gate lines but I can imagine there being problems during engineering work or unplanned problems

 

[James Wake]

Presumably the Express or not-Express fare will be selected based on the entry/exit gateline used at Victoria. Is there any scope for problems there? (I don't know Victoria that well).

Yes, if a Southern service is platformed into 13 or 14 and they don't open up the side gates to the gateline by platforms 9-12 or the concourse of platforms 15-19.