Oyster - requirement to have sufficient PAYG credit

[LexyBoy]

On the MSE forum at the moment is a thread concerning someone who got a PF for travelling via Zone 1 with a Z2-4 Travelcard with insufficient PAYG credit to cover the journey. There are some details missing from their account, but it got me thinking.

Now, I had thought that so long as you successfully touched in at the beginning of a journey, that you were covered so long as you stay within the Oyster area. From TfL's CoC it would appear that this is not the case (my highlighting):

6.1.2 If you are using an Oyster card, it must have a valid season ticket (or tickets) on it that is available for the whole of the journey you are making or sufficient pay as you go credit for your full journey or that part of your journey not covered by your season ticket.

Elsewhere this requirement is not made explicit and seems to fit with my belief that so long as you're allowed to start a journey you will be covered:

6.7.3 Paying as you go on the Underground, DLR, London Overground and National Rail services within the National Rail pay as you go area
To record the start of your journey, you must touch your Oyster card flat on a yellow card reader (see clause 6.8) at the station as you enter the compulsory ticket area.
A charge, as set by TfL, will be deducted from the balance on your Oyster card. You will not be allowed to start your journey unless you have sufficient pay as you go credit on your Oyster card.[...]

To me the highlighted part says that you shouldn't be penalised so long as you touched in, as it is the system which determines what "sufficient" is rather than the passenger. Any thoughts? A further question would be whether going into debit during the course of a journey, despite having been in credit when it was started, invalidates the Travelcard held:

6.6.1 [...]
You can use the Travelcard season ticket on your Oyster card provided it is available and valid at the time you travel and any pay as you go balance on your Oyster card is not in debit. Should any pay as you go balance on your Oyster card be in debit, you must clear the debit before you use your Travelcard season ticket.[...]

 

[transmanche]

Elsewhere this requirement is not made explicit and seems to fit with my belief that so long as you're allowed to start a journey you will be covered:

I think that 6.7.3. is only relevant to PAYG-only journeys.

As the journey was started using a Travelcard product (and within the zones of that product), no value was deducted when touching-in. And thus the system can't provide a "you don't have enough credit for the journey" warning.

 

[LexyBoy]

I think you're right on 6.7.3. However it seems rather unfair to require Travelcard holders to ensure they have enough credit when this requirement is not made for PAYG-only users. Requiring that Travelcard holders are not in debit should be sufficient to make sure they pay for their journey - most journeys made wouldn't put them more than £5 (i.e. the Oyster deposit) in debit and their Travelcard cannot be used until the debt is paid off.

 

[Mojo]

If you have no credit and you attempt to touch in within the zones covered by your Travelcard, then it will let you touch in and will give a green light.

If you have a negative balance, even if you attempt to touch in within the zones covered by your Travelcard, then it will not let you touch in and will give a red light.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the main problem though is that the system cannot ever predict that a travelcard holder intends go further than their t/c zones if starting within those zones, it can only detect it has happened retrospectively. (Obviously its a different scenario when touching in outside the valid zones.) In the absence of any way for the system to predict what the user might do next the onus must be on the individual user to have an appropriate PAYG balance.

 

[LexyBoy]

But the system does not require an Oyster user making a journey with PAYG only to have enough credit to make the most expensive possible journey, only the cheapest. It would be reasonable to expect the same when a Travelcard is loaded (in which case the cheapest journey would cost nothing).

Many people I'm sure don't pay much attention to their balance, just topping up when they get a red light.

 

[transmanche]

I think the main problem though is that the system cannot ever predict that a travelcard holder intends go further than their t/c zones if starting within those zones, it can only detect it has happened retrospectively. (Obviously its a different scenario when touching in outside the valid zones.) In the absence of any way for the system to predict what the user might do next the onus must be on the individual user to have an appropriate PAYG balance.

Exactly.

The other issue is that Oystercard holders with monthly (or longer) Travelcards loaded may not have paid any deposit. Certainly when I got my Oyster in 2004, the (then £3?) deposit did not have to paid if you had a monthly Travelcard. Nowadays I only use PAYG - but have never paid a deposit. I use auto top-up to ensure I never 'go negative'.

 

[Be3G]

But the system does not require an Oyster user making a journey with PAYG only to have enough credit to make the most expensive possible journey, only the cheapest.

The system (as in the gates, computers etc.) might require credit for only the cheapest journey, but condition 6.1.2 makes it clear to me that the amount of credit required is the amount needed to pay for the entire journey. For example, I wouldn't want to be found on a train at Hackney Downs, having jumped on a train at Turkey Street with just £1.00 credit, which I believe to be the minimum fare from TUR. (Assuming a normal adult Oyster.) To me it would be like boarding a train from a station with no ticket purchasing facilities, carrying an amount of money that's nowhere near enough to pay for my ticket on the train.

I'm also not sure we should be thinking about the deposit in terms of helping to cover people's negative balances. In my mind, the deposit is nothing to do with that – it's to cover the cost of the card itself and admin. The only connection is that the amount of the deposit has been increased in recent years to discourage disposal of cards with negative balances on them.

 

[bb21]

I'm also not sure we should be thinking about the deposit in terms of helping to cover people's negative balances. In my mind, the deposit is nothing to do with that – it's to cover the cost of the card itself and admin. The only connection is that the amount of the deposit has been increased in recent years to discourage disposal of cards with negative balances on them.

But that is part of the function of the deposit. It was the reason given for the increase from £3 to £5.

 

[bicbasher]

The other issue is that Oystercard holders with monthly (or longer) Travelcards loaded may not have paid any deposit. Certainly when I got my Oyster in 2004, the (then £3?) deposit did not have to paid if you had a monthly Travelcard. Nowadays I only use PAYG - but have never paid a deposit. I use auto top-up to ensure I never 'go negative'.

It got to the point where you could get an Oyster without a deposit if you purchased it with a weekly Bus & Tram Pass.

This changed by 2009 as I paid the £3 deposit after my old card was stolen during a burglary.

 

[island]

The real question here is did the MSE OP touch in. If not, he was lucky to get a PF rather than being prosecuted for doughnutting.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I find it completely wrong that a PAYG deficit prevents use of a pre-paid season. They are independent matters: if I happen to owe a pound following a slight misjudgement over my PAYG balance I don't see how it is reasonable to hold me to ransom by using the four-figure (perhaps) ticket, which I have paid for in advance and which allows me unlimited travel, as a kind of collateral.

It seems to be another occasion where the "railway" has forgotten how much money they get in advance, for a service they are yet to provide, through the sale of seasons.

 

[Mojo]

I find it completely wrong that a PAYG deficit prevents use of a pre-paid season. They are independent matters: if I happen to owe a pound following a slight misjudgement over my PAYG balance I don't see how it is reasonable to hold me to ransom by using the four-figure (perhaps) ticket, which I have paid for in advance and which allows me unlimited travel, as a kind of collateral.

It seems to be another occasion where the "railway" has forgotten how much money they get in advance, for a service they are yet to provide, through the sale of seasons.

However if a customer was allowed to travel with a negative balance they could get away with never paying for travel beyond the validity of their season ticket (at least in one direction).

 

[MichaelAMW]

However if a customer was allowed to travel with a negative balance they could get away with never paying for travel beyond the validity of their season ticket (at least in one direction).

Well, that may be true, but it still doesn't answer the point I made.

However, are you saying that the passenger is given a concession that allows them to start a journey on their season and extend it beyond their season's validity using PAYG, but not to have to "touch in" at the changeover station? The deal then is that, if you want the concession you have to keep the PAYG in credit? There's always the alternative, I guess, of having two Oyster cards or even a paper ticket (in some cases).

 

[island]

That is accurate, except you do not have the option not to have this feature.

 

[paddington]

But the system does not require an Oyster user making a journey with PAYG only to have enough credit to make the most expensive possible journey, only the cheapest. It would be reasonable to expect the same when a Travelcard is loaded (in which case the cheapest journey would cost nothing).

Many people I'm sure don't pay much attention to their balance, just topping up when they get a red light.

The system (as in the gates, computers etc.) might require credit for only the cheapest journey, but condition 6.1.2 makes it clear to me that the amount of credit required is the amount needed to pay for the entire journey. For example, I wouldn't want to be found on a train at Hackney Downs, having jumped on a train at Turkey Street with just £1.00 credit, which I believe to be the minimum fare from TUR. (Assuming a normal adult Oyster.) To me it would be like boarding a train from a station with no ticket purchasing facilities, carrying an amount of money that's nowhere near enough to pay for my ticket on the train.

After touching in, a maximum cash fare is deducted. Wouldn't the RPI see a negative balance, unless there was more than £8 PAYG balance before touching in?

If starting outside the zones of a travelcard, there could also be a negative balance when checked inside a station.

Unless I am going to make a lot of PAYG journeys in a short period, I usually top up with the exact amount of my fare (it's also an easy way of getting rid of all the small change my wife collects). Occasionally my journey changes en route resulting in a negative balance when touching out, which I rectify the next time I need to travel.

 

[Be3G]

After touching in, a maximum cash fare is deducted. Wouldn't the RPI see a negative balance, unless there was more than £8 PAYG balance before touching in?

I wondered that too. Perhaps if they check the balance and see that it's negative, an astute RPI then checks some other data to see what the balance was before touch-in, to determine if someone's on the fiddle? I don't know what the capabilities are of the little handheld Oyster readers.

 

[455driver]

The OP has stated that the complainant was caught in zone 1 with a 2-4 season and no credit on the oyster card, everyone taking it off topic just to make the railways look guilty is just looking silly.
The person tried travelling through zone 1 without a valid ticket or the means to pay, end of.

 

[34D]

I don't think I paid a deposit when I got my oyster card in 2005ish. I use auto topup though.

Surely for season ticket holders, the fairest solution is to let them exit through an exit barrier (at a station not in their zones) and create a negative balance, but the next time they try to enter, to give them a red light?

If I use auto topup, can I definitely not be prosecuted for an oyster balance-related offence?

 

[LexyBoy]

Thanks for everyone's replies. I must say that I did not realise it was a requirement to have enough credit for the journey made before setting off (I realise that sounds a bit silly when said like that). I doubt many Londoners realise they face a Penalty Fare whenever they go into debit on touching out.

After all, it is not as if the fare is actually being avoided, as the debit is paid back on topping up (or TfL keep your deposit). Since Oyster is sold on the simplicity of not having to buy tickets each time, one would not expect to have to check the price of the journey instead - I for one only have a fairly hazy idea of what a journey is supposed to cost.

As yorkie has written, the way to be safe is to ensure you always have at least £10 credit by using Auto Topup - then there's no way you could make a journey without enough credit to cover it.

 

[island]

If I use auto topup, can I definitely not be prosecuted for an oyster balance-related offence?

I imagine you could if your auto topup failed.

 

[MikeWh]

I imagine you could if your auto topup failed.

I'd hope any sensible magistrate would throw out an attempt to prosecute where the workings of a system had failed, possibly without the defendant knowing.

However, are you saying that the passenger is given a concession that allows them to start a journey on their season and extend it beyond their season's validity using PAYG, but not to have to "touch in" at the changeover station? The deal then is that, if you want the concession you have to keep the PAYG in credit? There's always the alternative, I guess, of having two Oyster cards or even a paper ticket (in some cases).

It's not really a concession, and I think this may again be the crux of the issue in the OP too. If you want to go beyond the zones covered by a travelcard then you must touch in at the start of the journey. That way the Oyster system knows where you are likely to have changed over when you try to touch out. A MOVie reader will tell the operator what zones are on the travelcard and whether it has been touched in recently. If it hasn't been touched in and you are out of the zones then a penalty fare is appropriate, even if you have plenty of credit.

 

[MichaelAMW]

It's not really a concession, and I think this may again be the crux of the issue in the OP too. If you want to go beyond the zones covered by a travelcard then you must touch in at the start of the journey. That way the Oyster system knows where you are likely to have changed over when you try to touch out. A MOVie reader will tell the operator what zones are on the travelcard and whether it has been touched in recently. If it hasn't been touched in and you are out of the zones then a penalty fare is appropriate, even if you have plenty of credit.

Sorry - yes, thanks for the clarification. Although I didn't say so, I was assuming the initial touch-in was required. The extra feature is the "System" automatically doing a kind of extra virtual touch-in for you as you pass out of your season's zones.

 

[LexyBoy]

It's not really a concession, and I think this may again be the crux of the issue in the OP too. If you want to go beyond the zones covered by a travelcard then you must touch in at the start of the journey.

This I knew and is what I asked the MSE OP. I was surprised that it appears to be a breach of the CoC not to have sufficient funds for the journey even when touched in.

(I'm not entirely sure what MichaelAMW is saying, but I think his point is that the "concession" is that Oyster allows you to automatically pay for the extension without having to break the journey to touch in at the boundary of your Travelcard zones. E.g. if you held a Z3-6 paper travelcard, you could still make a journey into Z1 using PAYG but would need to disembark to touch in. In this scenario (or having two Oysters), it would be possible to use the Travelcard whilst having a negative balance).

 

[MichaelAMW]

(I'm not entirely sure what MichaelAMW is saying, but I think his point is that the "concession" is that Oyster allows you to automatically pay for the extension without having to break the journey to touch in at the boundary of your Travelcard zones. E.g. if you held a Z3-6 paper travelcard, you could still make a journey into Z1 using PAYG but would need to disembark to touch in. In this scenario (or having two Oysters), it would be possible to use the Travelcard whilst having a negative balance).

Yes, that's exactly what I was - apparently badly! - attempting to say. Also, as I said a bit earlier, the point about a separate Oyster for PAYG or paper travelcard.

 

[34D]

I imagine you could if your auto topup failed.

But a failed auto topup still increases the balance of the card by £20 (or whatever).

The failed debit card payment is dealt with by a set procedure in the back-office.

 

[MikeWh]

But a failed auto topup still increases the balance of the card by £20 (or whatever).

The failed debit card payment is dealt with by a set procedure in the back-office.

Not if the auto top up fails to add the £20 to your card (as well as failing to take the money from the bank, obviously) as happened to me once. I phoned up the helpline to ask why my card had managed to get a -£0.10 balance when it had auto top up enabled and they confirmed that there had been as issue at Norwood Junction when it was supposed to have triggered. They then suggested that I would need to manually top up before I could use the card again, but I tried anyway and am happy to report that the auto topup was correctly applied on my next touch in, making my starting balance £19.90.

 

[34D]

How long ago, Mike? My own issue (insufficient funds on my debit card) was mid 2012.

 

[MikeWh]

How long ago, Mike? My own issue (insufficient funds on my debit card) was mid 2012.

I'm aware of your issue, which is the far more common issue. In that case there would be a balance added to the card in good faith which is why they act so quickly to get you to resolve it when things go wrong.

My case was a while ago, and was an example of a completely different error. For some reason the reader at Norwood Junction ignored the auto topup marker and didn't add any credit. As my starting balance was already quite low, the journey I made took it negative, just.

 

[455driver]

(I'm not entirely sure what MichaelAMW is saying, but I think his point is that the "concession" is that Oyster allows you to automatically pay for the extension without having to break the journey to touch in at the boundary of your Travelcard zones. E.g. if you held a Z3-6 paper travelcard, you could still make a journey into Z1 using PAYG but would need to disembark to touch in. In this scenario (or having two Oysters), it would be possible to use the Travelcard whilst having a negative balance).

But what if you intended to use your Z3-6 paper travelcard to travel through Z1 back into Z3?
What if the same thing applied to an Oystercard with Z3-6 TC (but no payg balance on it) and you used that to travel through Z1 and back into Z3 before touching another reader?