Oyster readers - Clapham Junction

[Acton1991]

Hi there - quick question for any Clapham locals.

I am travelling to Clapham Junction on the Overground (on Oyster) then connecting to National Rail on a separate ticket. Do the Overground platforms at Clapham have Oyster readers to allow me to tap out inside the gateline?

Thank you in advance!

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi there - quick question for any Clapham locals.

I am travelling to Clapham Junction on the Overground (on Oyster) then connecting to National Rail on a separate ticket. Do the Overground platforms at Clapham have Oyster readers to allow me to tap out inside the gateline?

Thank you in advance!

The vast majority don’t have readers. Platform 17 is the only one that usually gets a mention. I think the readers on P1/2 are only route validators (pink), and they won’t end a PAYG leg of your journey.

 

[Kite159]

Unless it's changed recently, used to be a couple located on platform 17 itself plus one located in the subway by the entrance to platform 17. The reader(s) on 1/2 are pink so they will allow you to start a journey but not end one.

 

[Acton1991]

Great thanks both - if not will have to exit the gateline and re-enter. So annoying and an issue that I'm finding at Ealing Broadway too.

 

[MikeWh]

Great thanks both - if not will have to exit the gateline and re-enter. So annoying and an issue that I'm finding at Ealing Broadway too.

Yes, you'll have to go to a gateline. Fortunately platforms 1 and 2 are right next to one side of the station so it's not that inconvenient.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Yes, you'll have to go to a gateline. Fortunately platforms 1 and 2 are right next to one side of the station so it's not that inconvenient.

P17, mentioned above as having a normal Oyster reader is also by the gateline (at the opposite end of the cross-passage subway). Is the presence of readers on P17, historically, because of the through Croydon-to-WLL services using that platform where people might often be using an Oyster for a local journey that far, before switching to a NR for a longer onward journey? If so, doesn't that logic apply even more to the Overground platforms 1 and 2? Why aren't there Oyster readers there?

 

[MikeWh]

P17, mentioned above as having a normal Oyster reader is also by the gateline (at the opposite end of the cross-passage subway). Is the presence of readers on P17, historically, because of the through Croydon-to-WLL services using that platform where people might often be using an Oyster for a local journey that far, before switching to a NR for a longer onward journey? If so, doesn't that logic apply even more to the Overground platforms 1 and 2? Why aren't there Oyster readers there?

To be honest I think the question really should be why are there yellow Oyster readers on P17? My guess is that the low throughput of passengers on that platform, given that there is only one train an hour, meant that the risks are minimal.

As to the rest of the station, yellow readers within the station would be a doughnutters paradise, therefore it isn't going to happen.

 

[miklcct]

As to the rest of the station, yellow readers within the station would be a doughnutters paradise, therefore it isn't going to happen.

Convenience to honest commuters should always be put under priority before reducing ticketless travel. Imagine the chao caused by a train load of transferring passengers blocking the gateline near the P1/2 entrance causing congestion there.

 

[coursemyhorse]

This morning I travelled into Clapham on South Western Railway from Aldershot using a weekly season ticket, then I changed to use the over ground out of platform 2. First time I did this to avoid using the tube due to strikes today. I did not pass through a barrier so just got on the over ground and got off at Whitechapel which is a zone 2. I tapped out using contactless card at Whitechapel so I could exit the station but assume I will be charged a maximum fare or some kind of penalty as I never tapped in.

1: What will the penalty or fare be?
2: Can I get it refunded?
3: Should it have been £1.70 for that journey normally?
4: Should I have found one of these pink card readers and tapped IN at Clapham on platform 2? Then out on the normal Whitechapel exit?
5: When I go home tonight and I tap in contactless at Whitechapel, what do I do when I get to Clapham to terminate and tap out my contactless journey on the over ground? Do I have to go find the Yellow one on platform 17 or will the pink one be ok again? I obviously want to stat station side to change trains to an SWR one to get home on my normal season ticket.

 

[Watershed]

This morning I travelled into Clapham on South Western Railway from Aldershot using a weekly season ticket, then I changed to use the over ground out of platform 2. First time I did this to avoid using the tube due to strikes today. I did not pass through a barrier so just got on the over ground and got off at Whitechapel which is a zone 2.

By failing to touch in, you travelled without a valid ticket and therefore could have been issued with a Penalty Fare, or prosecuted. That said, with contactless, due to the way the system works there is no way of inspectors knowing whether you are actually touched in at the time.

But a maximum fare would be charged once the inspectors' "inspection records" are reconciled in the system at the end of the day. I understand there is also a "three strikes" policy, after which your card would be blocked from any further use on TfL.

What will the penalty or fare be?

A maximum fare of up to £8.90.

Can I get it refunded?

You can contact TfL customer services and explain the mistake you made. They may refund you the difference, but it's at their discretion.

Should it have been £1.70 for that journey normally?

£1.80 as of today's fare increase, if touching in between 06:30-09:30 (or 16:00-19:00).

Should I have found one of these pink card readers and tapped IN at Clapham on platform 2? Then out on the normal Whitechapel exit?

Pink readers can be used to touch in, though that is not what they are designed for and there is a chance that TfL may remove this functionality in the future. But either way you should have touched in, in some way. Simply boarding without touching in means you are travelling without a ticket.

When I go home tonight and I tap in contactless at Whitechapel, what do I do when I get to Clapham to terminate and tap out my contactless journey on the over ground? Do I have to go find the Yellow one on platform 17 or will the pink one be ok again? I obviously want to stat station side to change trains to an SWR one to get home on my normal season ticket.

You can only use pink readers to indicate the route you took, or to touch in. You cannot use them to touch out - otherwise people's journeys would be ended when they were just meaning to indicate their route!

You will either need to touch out at a yellow reader, or at the ticket barriers. There is no requirement to actually pass through the gate, you could just touch out and immediately return to the platforms - though that could arouse suspicion from gateline staff.

 

[coursemyhorse]

Ok thanks. Arouse suspicion? If somebody tapped out and then went inside to get another train without a valid ticket, there are not many stations left with no gates on exit now so I'd be surprised they don't see this fairly often at Clapham.

 

[MikeWh]

Yes, further to the above you will need to touch out on a yellow reader. Probably the easiest way is to go down the stairs from platform 2 which brings you to the Grant Road barriers. Touch out with your card and come back in with your season ticket then use the subway to get to your next platform.

There is a small chance that when faced with touches at Whitechapel and one at Clapham Junction the overnight reconciliation will auto complete the first journey. You need to add your bank card to a TfL account which will enable you to view journey history. Tomorrow you should be able to add the missing touch if it hasn't already been assumed. This will save you queuing on the phone to speak to the helpdesk.

 

[Watershed]

Ok thanks. Arouse suspicion? If somebody tapped out and then went inside to get another train without a valid ticket, there are not many stations left with no gates on exit now so I'd be surprised they don't see this fairly often at Clapham.

Well, it's something that fare evaders do fairly often. If their destination has ticket gates (and they don't fancy vaulting them), some fare evaders decide to "donut" by buying a ticket for one stop at the other end of their journey. Of course, if caught, the penalties can be pretty severe.

Unless there is a lengthy one-way system etc. in place, it's probably least hassle to touch out, pass through the barrier and then re-enter with your season ticket.

 

[coursemyhorse]

Out of interest, how does that even work then? Surely to buy a ticket you would need to exit through a barrier first to then buy the one stop ticket?

 

[Watershed]

Out of interest, how does that even work then? Surely to buy a ticket you would need to exit through a barrier first to then buy the one stop ticket?

Lots of people buy e-tickets. Or they buy their ticket online and pick it up before travelling, or go to the ticket machine and select a different origin station.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Well, it's something that fare evaders do fairly often. If their destination has ticket gates (and they don't fancy vaulting them), some fare evaders decide to "donut" by buying a ticket for one stop at the other end of their journey. Of course, if caught, the penalties can be pretty severe.

Unless there is a lengthy one-way system etc. in place, it's probably least hassle to touch out, pass through the barrier and then re-enter with your season ticket.

I would have thought that its a common occurrence at locations such as Clapham Junction, where there will be large numbers of people switching from National Rail non-TfL services to TfL services, and the gateline staff are used to it

 

[mmh]

Pink readers can be used to touch in, though that is not what they are designed for and there is a chance that TfL may remove this functionality in the future.

Can they? This feels like a very important thing to be accurate about. Perhaps @MikeWh could help here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2022 ==

I would have thought that its a common occurrence at locations such as Clapham Junction, where there will be large numbers of people switching from National Rail non-TfL services to TfL services, and the gateline staff are used to it

In comparison to the number of people using Clapham Junction the number of people switching ticket types there must be miniscule.

 

[Acton1991]

It's a total pain. I arrived on an eTicket from Winchester last week, and rushed to make a connection back to Richmond and then onto Acton Central. No way of touching in on the platform, so ended up having a penalty fare. TfL refunded the difference, but surely there should be validators on the platform as it must occur all the time.

 

[mmh]

It's a total pain. I arrived on an eTicket from Winchester last week, and rushed to make a connection back to Richmond and then onto Acton Central. No way of touching in on the platform, so ended up having a penalty fare. TfL refunded the difference, but surely there should be validators on the platform as it must occur all the time.

It's a niche case. Admittedly one that might affect more people than others, but still miniscule proportionately. The amount of people changing between paper ticket and oyster/contactless other than at terminals, which all handle it, must be very small and predominantly those who understand the intricacies of fare systems. Most people just buy a ticket from A to B.

 

[Watershed]

Can they? This feels like a very important thing to be accurate about. Perhaps @MikeWh could help here.

Yes. See this thread on @MikeWh's website's forum.

It's a total pain. I arrived on an eTicket from Winchester last week, and rushed to make a connection back to Richmond and then onto Acton Central. No way of touching in on the platform, so ended up having a penalty fare.

You need to exit the barriers and touch in using your Oyster card, or use a yellow or pink reader. You cannot travel using PAYG Oyster without touching in.

TfL could have brought a prosecution instead of offering a Penalty Fare, so I would be very careful in future.

TfL refunded the difference, but surely there should be validators on the platform as it must occur all the time.

If there were yellow readers on more platforms, more people would short fare. The pink validators can be used to touch in, but not many people know that. They're also little help when you travel in the opposite direction and need to touch out.

 

[Haywain]

The pink validators can be used to touch in, but not many people know that. They're also little help when you travel in the opposite direction and need to touch out.

To clarify, are you saying you can touch in at a pink validator but not touch out? I'd like to make sure I'm following this correctly!

 

[JBuchananGB]

Touch in works at pink validater, but not touch out. I found this out when I travelled from GA land to Camden Road via Stratford. Paper ticket to Stratford. Tapped in on P1/2 at Stratford, pink. Came back, tapped pink. Checked my history, had incurred a maximum for incomplete journey from Camden Road. Phoned TFL and sorted it out.

 

[miklcct]

It's a niche case. Admittedly one that might affect more people than others, but still miniscule proportionately. The amount of people changing between paper ticket and oyster/contactless other than at terminals, which all handle it, must be very small and predominantly those who understand the intricacies of fare systems. Most people just buy a ticket from A to B.

Clapham Junction is the most-used railway station in Great Britain for changing trains, and we can imagine a significant proportion of the passengers are changing from a long-distance mainline service to a suburban service. And for most ticket types, as long as one holds an Oyster / contactless, it's cheaper to switch ticket while changing trains compared to buying a through ticket. Therefore I can imagine a significant portion of passengers will require a change between Oyster / contactless in order to make a journey involving an interchange at Clapham Junction.

 

[Watershed]

Clapham Junction is the most-used railway station in Great Britain for changing trains

Correct.

we can imagine a significant proportion of the passengers are changing from a long-distance mainline service to a suburban service

I doubt this. A number of long distance services don't even stop at Clapham Jn, particularly at 'peak' times when the greatest number of people are travelling. And in any case, long distance passengers make up a minority of overall passengers passing through, or changing at, Clapham Jn.

And for most ticket types, as long as one holds an Oyster / contactless, it's cheaper to switch ticket while changing trains compared to buying a through ticket.

Indeed, but most people wouldn't ever really think about splitting, if they even know what it is. And for those who do, they may not be particularly bothered about saving a pound or two by 'splitting' (as it often is in this case).

It is also not as straightforward to calculate whether splitting between ticket modes presents a saving, as compared to having websites like TrainSplit and Trainline that offer split ticketing for fares retailed by e-ticket or collection.

Therefore I can imagine a significant portion of passengers will require a change between Oyster / contactless in order to make a journey involving an interchange at Clapham Junction.

I very much doubt this. No doubt there are some people who do this. But the congestion would be massive if everyone changing trains exited and re-entered the station.

 

[30907]

Clapham Junction is the most-used railway station in Great Britain for changing trains, and we can imagine a significant proportion of the passengers are changing from a long-distance mainline service to a suburban service. And for most ticket types, as long as one holds an Oyster / contactless, it's cheaper to switch ticket while changing trains compared to buying a through ticket.

A random sample (Bournemouth to Balham, Croydon, Richmond, Super OPR) says otherwise - the through fare is the same as that to CLJ.
You are probably right for Overground stations but those platforms are covered - do you have any non Overground examples for A to B via CLJ.
(I do recall you doing something rather more complicated involving BOJ and multiple in-Zone trips, but that's niche stuff if very satisfying.)

 

[plugwash]

Clapham Junction is the most-used railway station in Great Britain for changing trains,

Well it is according to the governments figures, do we know what assumptions are built into those figures?

and we can imagine a significant proportion of the passengers are changing from a long-distance mainline service to a suburban service.

Some may be, but a lot of long distance trains don't stop. Especially with the upcoming expansion of the London and the south east PAYG area I'd imagine most changes at stratford will be for journeys entirely within the area.

And for most ticket types, as long as one holds an Oyster / contactless, it's cheaper to switch ticket while changing trains compared to buying a through ticket.

Would someone switching from a regular ticket to oyster/contactless even count as a transfer? I can't see how the system would have any way to match up their regular ticket to their PAYG travel.

 

[Hadders]

Just because you might change trains at Clapham Junction doesn't mean you have to change tickets there. In many cases a through ticket to the ultimate destination will be better value for money. I admit this won't always be the case but often it will be.

 

[miklcct]

Some may be, but a lot of long distance trains don't stop.

Only a minority of trains don't stop there, except the morning peak when all trains don't stop. Whenever trains stop there, changing there for the North / West / South of London is cheaper, quicker and more direct than heading to a London Terminal.

Just because you might change trains at Clapham Junction doesn't mean you have to change tickets there. In many cases a through ticket to the ultimate destination will be better value for money. I admit this won't always be the case but often it will be.

In my experience, in nearly all circumstances from my home station to a destination where the ultimate destination is in London Zones, switching to Oyster is cheaper than buying a through ticket. However, on a Sunday (not applicable to Monday to Saturday as not all trains stop there), splitting at Basingstoke with a Travelcard from there is much cheaper instead.

 

[cav1975]

I have found the validator on platform 17 useful when arriving from the south west on an SWR advance (destination Clapham Junction) and needing to travel on to Victoria. It's most annoying that SWR don't do "& connections" advance tickets that would allow through tickets to Victoria. This is the sort of nonsense that GBR should (but probably won't) sort out.

 

[infobleep]

I have found the validator on platform 17 useful when arriving from the south west on an SWR advance (destination Clapham Junction) and needing to travel on to Victoria. It's most annoying that SWR don't do "& connections" advance tickets that would allow through tickets to Victoria. This is the sort of nonsense that GBR should (but probably won't) sort out.

I quite agree. It is that kind of thing that pushed me towards split ticketing and the study of the routing guide In greater detail than before.

Had I been able to buy advanced purchase tickets to more destinations I may not have bothered.

I do use Oyster but it's not often I use it from Clapham Junction

The time it would have been most useful was when using a zone 2 to 6 travelcard season ticket and wanting to go into zone 1 but as the train didn't stop at Clapham Junction, tough.