Oyster PAYG on Long distance trains

[pethadine82]

Can you use Oyster PAYG on a Virgin service from Euston to Watford Junction, rather than London Overground or London Midland?

Also what about on Anglia trains that are from Liverpool street to Norwich which stop at stratford?

Ticket checks would be done by the train guard, what would they say?

 

[bb21]

No. They are pick-up only at these stations leaving London. If you are checked, the outcome would be a full Anytime Single or a Penalty Fare if appropriate.

The exception are trains inbound into Liverpool Street, as the trains are advertised on the platform screens, so an argument could be made that they are not really set-down only.

 

[alexjames]

This might be a use of language point rather than a technical matter.

As BB21 points out, it is not permissible.

But to answer your question: yes you can. All you have to do is...

1. Find an Oyster reader on a Virgin platform so you can check in.

2. Make sure that your selected service does not have a Virgin staff barricade checking tickets before you board.

3. Hope that no ticket check happens before you get to WJ. Likely, but by no means certain. Downside is that a ticket check results in you getting stuffed for an any time single to Chester or some such distant place. That would be painful.

So I suggest that you do not do it. But you can if you want to.

 

[Be3G]

I could be wrong, but from the thread's title I sense that the question is more of a general one about whether Oyster can be used on what might colloquially be called ‘intercity’ services rather than the commuter services that one would normally associate with Oyster. In which case the answer is actually ‘yes’, albeit with the caveat that the vast majority of cases where long-distance trains stop en-route in London are set-down/pick-up only which means that the short-hop journeys being discussed aren't valid with any ticket, not just PAYG. There is at least one case I can think of where this issue wouldn't present itself, however: the 0830 on a Sunday morning from Liverpool Street to Norwich, which calls at Shenfield to pick up and set down too. There's nothing anywhere to say that an Oyster couldn't be used to make that journey on that train.

(Part of me wants to try that now, and request a weekend first upgrade for the 28 minute journey too, just to see how the guard reacts. )

 

[hassaanhc]

If it was about Freedom Passes then it would be easy :P (those are not valid on Virgin), however Oyster is different and I'm not too sure about use of PAYG on them (probably doesn't matter if Season Ticket on Oyster is used but PAYG might be dodgy).

Quote from LondonCouncils website about Freedom Passes:

As a summary, the Freedom Pass is not valid for travel on train services operated by:
East Coast
East Midlands Trains
Grand Central
Hull Trains
Gatwick Express (between London Victoria and Gatwick)
Heathrow Express
Heathrow Connect between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow
Virgin Trains
Southeastern high speed services to and from St Pancras International and Stratford International

 

[Hadders]

Oyster is a medium on which a ticket is stored so Virgin cannot bar the use of it on their services (whether it's a season or PAYG).

The question is are there any Virgin services from Euston that are not pick up/set down only only at Watford Junction. I've had a quick look and can't find any.

Boarding and alighting from pick up/set down only services has been debated several times on this forum. Technically it isn't valid to travel from Euston to Watford Junction on a Virgin service that is pick up only at Watford, so the Oyster issue doesn't arise.

Obviously a season ticket held on Oyster can be used as part of a combination under NRCoC 19.

 

[pethadine82]

I have seen on the departure boards at Euston that on Virgin services that Watford Junction is displayed and there is nothing about pick up only.
One could tap in at Euston and tap out on the other end.

Do all London Midland guards carry oyster readers? I was travelling on London Midland from Watford Junction to Harrow and Wealdstone and the train manager came round to do an inspection, I took out my oyster card and he said "thanks" and moved on, he didn't have a reader as far as I could see, but both stations are barried

On another note, when Harrow and Wealdstone was run by London Underground, (I am guessing they were LUL as they had the blue London Underground jumpers, were they fully trained in National Rail fares? I bought some tickets from Newcastle to Dundee a while ago, and they issued it with no problems.
I was hoping they would issue it on London Underground ticket stock, but it was done on National rail ticket stock.

 

[87 027]

I'm reminded of this website set up by an angry customer denied travel at Euston when attempting to use NRCoC 19 where one of the tickets was held on Oyster

http://www.virgintrains.org.uk/

 

[MikeWh]

Oyster is a medium on which a ticket is stored so Virgin cannot bar the use of it on their services (whether it's a season or PAYG).

That is absolutely correct for a travelcard season, but completely incorrect for PAYG. To use Oyster PAYG you must touch in at the start and touch out at the end. As you cannot travel on a Virgin train from Euston with the intention of allighting at Watford Junction it would not be possible to touch out.

 

[bb21]

A 19(c) split is absolutely fine, but that is not what the OP asked.

How is all this talk about Oyster being a medium and the link to the Virgin Strains example relevant?

 

[Hadders]

If it is possible to catch a Virgin train from Euston to Watford then Oyster PAYG would be valid as you can touch in at Euston and touch out at Watford.

But as Virgin trains only call to pick up and set down at Watford then it doesn't matter if you held a paper ticket or Oyster PAYG - you are not allowed to make the journey on Virgin.

 

[bb21]

That was what I said, was it not?

 

[Hadders]

That was what I said, was it not?

Apologies, I misread. Having re-read you, mikewh and me are saying the same thing!

 

[bicbasher]

On another note, when Harrow and Wealdstone was run by London Underground, (I am guessing they were LUL as they had the blue London Underground jumpers, were they fully trained in National Rail fares? I bought some tickets from Newcastle to Dundee a while ago, and they issued it with no problems.
I was hoping they would issue it on London Underground ticket stock, but it was done on National rail ticket stock.

Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone with the exception of Willesden Junction continue to be managed by LUL after those stations were handed over to TfL from Silverlink in 2007 as part of London Overground. LOROL, the LO concessionaire, manages Willesden Junction.

Those stations on the Bakerloo line north of Queens Park already had NR/Oyster TIS in operation under Silverlink, so are still able to sell NR tickets.

 

[tractakid]

The Saturday AM Holyhead train that used to stop at Watford Junction was pick up and set down. Did anyone try using Oyster on that service before it was withdrawn?

 

[Tibbs]

Do all London Midland guards carry oyster readers? I was travelling on London Midland from Watford Junction to Harrow and Wealdstone and the train manager came round to do an inspection, I took out my oyster card and he said "thanks" and moved on, he didn't have a reader as far as I could see, but both stations are barried

It was a couple of years ago, but when I spoke to a guard about it, none of the LM guards carry Oyster Readers. According to him it was a Union thing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've never seen a London Midland guard with an Oyster reader (not that I've seen many LM guards checking tickets) but the RPIs do carry Oyster readers.

 

[LexyBoy]

Oyster is a medium on which a ticket is stored so Virgin cannot bar the use of it on their services (whether it's a season or PAYG).

Could you elaborate on this? Specifically, which media are "compulsory" for TOCs to accept (subject to ticket validity)?

 

[yorkie]

Presumably any medium?

A couple of quotes from Roger Ford in Informed Sources:-

"What counts is the message, not the medium." - Roger Ford, Modern Railways, October 2005

"So, the message is that if you roll up at a station with an Oyster travel card you are entitled to pay the boundary excess. If your friendly local TOC (and I must try this one the team at Welwyn Garden City) wants proof of the validity of the Travelcard it is up to the managers to provide the ticket office staff with readers" - Roger Ford, Modern Railways, October 2005

 

[LexyBoy]

I don't think so. Interavailable tickets are only available, as far as I know, on standard ticket stock, Oyster, ITSO smartcards, and specific ticket types for some PTE products.

Other forms of "Electronic Ticket" are restricted to a single operator and usually a specific train - Print@Home and m-tickets. Chiltern offer walk-up fares as m-tickets but these are routed Chiltern Only rather than Via High Wycombe. I believe this would not normally be allowed as Chiltern are the lead operator, but was done in order that m-tickets could be offered without having to arrange acceptance with XC/LM/VT/ATW.

If any medium could be used willy-nilly I would expect Print@Home or m-tickets to be offered for all journeys, as it would save the seller from TOD fees.

 

[Hadders]

Could you elaborate on this? Specifically, which media are "compulsory" for TOCs to accept (subject to ticket validity)?

We have tickets available on paper, smartcards and mobile devices as far as I am aware. Unless there is a restriction to the contrary (shown on the ticket, although I'm not sure how this can be done with a smartcard) then they are available on any operator.

- a season ticket held on Oyster could be used as part of a NRCoC 19(c). Virgin may not like it but they have no power to override the NRCoC. Virgin may not like it but it is their problem if they wish to check what season ticket is held on the Oyster card.

- with Oyster PAYG the situation is a bit different. Because every Virgin service is pick up or set down at Watford Junction then officially you can't make the journey (and the issue of using PAYG therefore doesn't arise).

Now let's pretend that a Virgin service 'slips through the net' and isn't pick up/set down at Watford Junction. I believe Oyster PAYG would be valid on such a service unless there was a specific restriction (which officially should be on the ticket, but certainly should be publicised).

I suspect this is the reason why everything is pick up-set down only at Watford. I thought there used to be some very early/late/weekend trains that weren't but suspect these have been changed to create a 'workaround' so Virgin don't need to accept Oyster PAYG.

 

[ert47]

I have seen some customers with a season ticket loaded on to their Oysters, but additionally hold a separate paper ticket (not a receipt) detailing what is currently loaded onto the card.

As it has been a while since I last saw one, I cannot remember if it was Gold Card related. I should have asked where they obtained it from.

 

[island]

It was probably a Gold Record Card.

You can (for now) get a printout at a LUL booking office of what season ticket is stored on your Oyster card.

 

[hassaanhc]

I have kept the receipt I got when I bought my Monthly Travelcard, one printed on standard receipt roll. It contains the card number, dates of validity and the zones covered. I have used 19c splits with it (not on Virgin) and have not been asked for any proof like that whenever I've done a 19c split, just presented my Oyster with the paper ticket.

 

[londonbridge]

I'm reminded of this website set up by an angry customer denied travel at Euston when attempting to use NRCoC 19 where one of the tickets was held on Oyster

http://www.virgintrains.org.uk/

And what was the eventual outcome? Was any of the legal action in the 'Claims Against Virgin' page actually carried out and did it succeed?