Oyster / PAYG capping question

[ABB125]

I've had a quick look at the Oyster section of the fares guide, and on oysterfares.com, but I haven't found an answer. Apologies if I've missed it!

Suppose I travel lots around zones 1 and 2 and hit the cap (£4.90 with Railcard). If I then make a single journey out to zone 5 (£2.10), do I pay a total of £7 (z12 cap plus single fare) or does the system change my cap to the z15 at £8.40?
Going the other way, what would I pay if I started in z5, but never went beyond z2 for the rest of the day? I'm guessing this would be the z15 cap.

Thanks

 

[MikeWh]

In the first instance you'd pay £7.00. In the second instance you'd be capped at £8.40.

 

[ABB125]

In the first instance you'd pay £7.00. In the second instance you'd be capped at £8.40.

Thanks, that's what I was hoping.

 

[Watershed]

It's worth noting that there can be a difference between Oyster and contactless in these kinds of circumstances.

At the end of each day, the contactless backend system will automatically check to see if a "split" (e.g. of a Zones 1-2 cap plus the relevant "extension" fares) is cheaper.

So, depending on exactly how many journeys you make, and which fare scales they're on etc., you might actually be charged less than you would be on Oyster.

Unfortunately, that is of little use if you have a Railcard and are travelling at Off-Peak times. TfL has long promised that Oyster will switch over to the same backend system as contactless but I don't think we have any idea of when it's actually going to be implemented.

 

[MikeWh]

TfL has long promised that Oyster will switch over to the same backend system as contactless but I don't think we have any idea of when it's actually going to be implemented.

The latest TRU suggests that it will start on September 27th. However, it doesn't say whether that is adult only or all types of Oyster. Bus weekly capping on Oyster only works on adult cards.

 

[StKeverne1497]

We're considering visiting London some time in the next six months. Family of six with children of 20, 17, 15 and 13. The older children have contactless debit cards but the younger ones don't (yet). I'm assuming four of us use debit cards and I just get the younger ones an Oyster each, but is this the best way to do it? Not visited London previously as a family, and would be unlikely to return for a few years...
M.

 

[ABB125]

We're considering visiting London some time in the next six months. Family of six with children of 20, 17, 15 and 13. The older children have contactless debit cards but the younger ones don't (yet). I'm assuming four of us use debit cards and I just get the younger ones an Oyster each, but is this the best way to do it? Not visited London previously as a family, and would be unlikely to return for a few years...
M.

I would've thought that if you (parents) have multiple contactless cards (eg: two each), then "loan" each younger child one of them to use on the barriers.

 

[MikeWh]

We're considering visiting London some time in the next six months. Family of six with children of 20, 17, 15 and 13. The older children have contactless debit cards but the younger ones don't (yet). I'm assuming four of us use debit cards and I just get the younger ones an Oyster each, but is this the best way to do it? Not visited London previously as a family, and would be unlikely to return for a few years...
M.

It depends how long you'll be visiting and/or how much travel you do.

An 11-15 zip card costs £15 but gives you extremely cheap travel, particularly after 0930. 75p single fares with a daily off-peak cap of £1.55 in zones 1-6.
An adult Oyster costs £5 and can have a young visitor discount applied to give 50% off adult fares. Zone 1 tube single is £1.20 with a daily cap of £3.70 in zones 1-2, rising to £6.75 off-peak for zones 1-6.
An off-peak paper travelcard for under 16s costs £6.95 for zones 1-6.

 

[zero]

The latest TRU suggests that it will start on September 27th. However, it doesn't say whether that is adult only or all types of Oyster. Bus weekly capping on Oyster only works on adult cards.

How will that work if the oyster "overcharges" you and a cheaper cap is found later? Will you get a refund that requires the card to be used (in the next 6 months like the £5 fee refund)?

 

[plugwash]

We're considering visiting London some time in the next six months. Family of six with children of 20, 17, 15 and 13. The older children have contactless debit cards but the younger ones don't (yet). I'm assuming four of us use debit cards and I just get the younger ones an Oyster each, but is this the best way to do it? Not visited London previously as a family, and would be unlikely to return for a few years...
M.

If it's a day visit arriving by rail on flexible tickets then you may also want to look into outboundry travelcards, whether they are a better or worse deal than oyster will depend on where you are coming from and what exactly you plan to do when you arrive.

 

[StKeverne1497]

Thanks for the replies. Couple of clarifications:
- if you think I'm giving one of my cards to my children... think again. Quite possibly against the Ts&Cs of both travel and the card as well!
- it would be a stay of probably at least two or three days, overnighting as close as affordable - unlikely to be a central London hotel though
- would love to travel in by train, but getting six from Cardiff to London ain't cheap, so we may have to split it and find somewhere to hide the car closer to London.

We don't do a lot of "holidaying" even in "normal" times, it would be an experience; won't be spending all day on the Circle line

Oh, and thanks MikeWh for the info about the Oysters and Zips - can you get these at stations (i.e. if we arrive at Paddington), or do they have to be applied for ahead of time?

I assume that it's not possible to add discounts to debit cards? If, say, we have a Friends & Family, or the older children have a 16-25?

M.

 

[Hadders]

Where you decide to stay will potentially make a difference. Let's say you decide to stay somewhere in outer London (e.g. Heathrow, Staines, Kingston etc sort of way) and travel into central London each day. You'll get a cheaper hotel but at the cost of extra travel expense.

If you are travelling from outer London then it might be worth considering a Family & Friends Railcard and paper Travelcards. A discounted Zones 1-6 Off Peak Day Travelcard is £9.10 for an adult and £2.60 for children. Up to 4 adults and 4 children (aged 5-15) can use a Family & Friends Railcard, and you must all travel together. For completeness there must be at least one adult and one child in the group.

 

[MikeWh]

Oh, and thanks MikeWh for the info about the Oysters and Zips - can you get these at stations (i.e. if we arrive at Paddington), or do they have to be

Oyster cards can be bought at Paddington. Zip cards need to be ordered at least a week in advance.

I assume that it's not possible to add discounts to debit cards? If, say, we have a Friends & Family, or the older children have a 16-25?

Debit cards are just full adult fares. Family and Friends can't be added to Oysters either, but 16-25s can, giving 34% off off-peak fares and the off-peak cap.

 

[JonathanH]

If you are travelling from outer London then it might be worth considering a Family & Friends Railcard and paper Travelcards. A discounted Zones 1-6 Off Peak Day Travelcard is £9.10 for an adult and £2.60 for children. Up to 4 adults and 4 children (aged 5-15) can use a Family & Friends Railcard, and you must all travel together. For completeness there must be at least one adult and one child in the group.

You can get quite close to 4 x 9.10 + 2 x 2.60 = £41.60 without a railcard by booking an outboundary travelcard from Potters Bar on the Thameslink booking engine and taking advantage of groupsave and the flat child fare of £2. I think it comes to about £46.20 (4 x 10.55 + 2 x 2.00). The one slight issue is what start time should be assumed - presumably valid from about 10am - and in both this and the family railcard situation the need to travel as one group all day.

 

[Watershed]

You can get quite close to 4 x 9.10 + 2 x 2.60 = £41.60 without a railcard by booking an outboundary travelcard from Potters Bar on the Thameslink booking engine and taking advantage of groupsave and the flat child fare of £2. I think it comes to about £46.20 (4 x 10.55 + 2 x 2.00). The one slight issue is what start time should be assumed - presumably valid from about 10am - and in both this and the family railcard situation the need to travel as one group all day.

Within the Zones that would be valid (and will be accepted) from 09:30 as it's an Off-Peak Travelcard.

It's only the putative travel outwith the Zones - which OP would not be using - that is affected by the restriction code.

 

[JonathanH]

Within the Zones that would be valid (and will be accepted) from 09:30 as it's an Off-Peak Travelcard.

It's only the putative travel outwith the Zones - which OP would not be using - that is affected by the restriction code.

OK, thanks for clarifying - that is good to know. I have never quite been sure on this point as to whether technically it carries a restriction based on when you could have reached London, but guess that no one looks at the origin point within London.

 

[StKeverne1497]

Wow. It's even more complicated than I thought!

Have to admit to a bit of "previous" here, which is one of the reasons I'm asking. Eldest (a bit train mad) and I went to London a few years back. I used a debit card, eldest bought an Oyster at Paddington with 16-25 on it (or whatever the equivalent was then) and - IIRC - £10 credit. That day we travelled Paddington - Kings Cross and Kings Cross - Tower Hill.

The next day was complicated. For reasons we needn't get in to here we travelled Tower Hill - Wimbledon, did not get out of the train and travelled (on the same train) all the way back to Upminster, got out but did not leave the station and got back on a later train all the way back to Acton where, again without leaving the station, we got on the Picadilly and travelled to Picadilly Circuis, where we finally left the system.

After wandering about for a bit, we tried to get back on the system at Westminster, intending to travel back towards Paddington via Kensington and a museum. It wouldn't let eldest through as there was no credit. Obviously, we recharged but I was expecting £10 for two days to be plenty for a max-capped fair each day, so I can only assume the system had decided we'd cheated somewhere and applied a penalty rate. Presumably it had done the same to me, but I couldn't work it out from the bank statement when I got home.

We tend to do this sort of thing while away - do things on a whim. It was one thing to be caught out with just two of us, but six could be a different story. Any suggestions what we did wrong so we don't do it again?

M

 

[JonathanH]

Any suggestions what we did wrong so we don't do it again?

Yes, you timed out - you needed to touch out and back in at Wimbledon, Upminster and Acton.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay...y-as-you-go/keep-within-maximum-journey-times

Keep within maximum journey times
Keep within the maximum journey time when you travel so you don't pay more for your journey.

For reasons we needn't get in to here we travelled Tower Hill - Wimbledon, did not get out of the train and travelled (on the same train) all the way back to Upminster, got out but did not leave the station and got back on a later train all the way back to Acton where, again without leaving the station, we got on the Picadilly and travelled to Picadilly Circuis, where we finally left the system.

You essentially need to exit and enter the system at regular intervals if you want to ride the system all day on an Oyster or Contactless card.

Clearly you could ride to the extremities and back touching in and out in a lower numbered zone so long as you touch in and out at different stations and don't exceed the advertised time available. However, it is far more appropriate and straightforward to touch out and in at the places you have actually travelled to (or use a paper ticket).

 

[Wolfie]

Yes, you timed out - you needed to touch out and back in at Wimbledon, Upminster and Acton.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay...y-as-you-go/keep-within-maximum-journey-times





You essentially need to exit and enter the system at regular intervals if you want to ride the system all day on an Oyster or Contactless card.

Clearly you could ride to the extremities and back touching in and out in a lower numbered zone so long as you touch in and out at different stations and don't exceed the advertised time available. However, it is far more appropriate and straightforward to touch out and in at the places you have actually travelled to (or use a paper ticket).

That has caused me grief in the past when there was disruption mid-journey.

 

[JonathanH]

That has caused me grief in the past when there was disruption mid-journey.

Indeed, when there is disruption it is important to check where you are against the maximum journey time particularly if not making a simple point-to-point journey.

However, if caught in genuine disruption making a recognised journey it is relatively easy to apply for a refund as you can cite the actual event.

 

[Wolfie]

Indeed, when there is disruption it is important to check where you are against the maximum journey time particularly if not making a simple point-to-point journey.

However, if caught in genuine disruption making a recognised journey it is relatively easy to apply for a refund as you can cite the actual event.

Agreed. It was sorted with a phone call. Just a bit of a pain.

 

[Watershed]

Any suggestions what we did wrong so we don't do it again?

Contactless and Oyster are ill suited to trips of the natture you described. You need to be very careful and clued up to avoid incurring maximum fares. If you know you'll be doing a lot of non-"A to B" journeys, a paper Travelcard is likely your best bet.

 

[StKeverne1497]

Great, thanks all. So effectively what happened was that the system saw a journey from Tower Hill to Picadilly Circus and reckoned we'd taken about three hours longer than we should have, so somehow we had been naughty. It therefore applied a penalty fare. Nice to know these things. Interesting point though, that we were guided around the system by a friend-of-a-friend who works for TfL and didn't mention maximum journey times once!

 

[swt_passenger]

Great, thanks all. So effectively what happened was that the system saw a journey from Tower Hill to Picadilly Circus and reckoned we'd taken about three hours longer than we should have, so somehow we had been naughty. It therefore applied a penalty fare. Nice to know these things. Interesting point though, that we were guided around the system by a friend-of-a-friend who works for TfL and didn't mention maximum journey times once!

It doesn’t actually apply a separate “penalty fare”, although people do often call the end result that. It charges an incompleted journey fare from your origin, and another unstarted journey fare on arrival at your eventual destination. But those two fares are kept outside the capping system as well.

So people have reported that they’ve used PAYG with auto top up set and have ended up with unexpectedly high total daily charges, but the account still wouldn’t ever refer to it as a “penalty” fare…

 

[Haywain]

It therefore applied a penalty fare.

A maximum fare (possibly two maximum fares), not a penalty fare. They are different things. Maximum fares are applied when there is a missing tap-in or tap-out within permitted journey times, meaning that there is no way of calculating the correct fare.