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Oyster on Replacement Bus Services

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jsmith300

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Hi there,

I have a friend going from Cricklewood to Twickenham tomorrow and he is using an oyster and so is going to avoid 1 for the cheaper fare.

There is a replacement bus service between West Hampstead and Gunnersbury. How is able to get the oyster to realise that he is continuing his journey after touching out at West Hampstead Thameslink and then touching in at Gunnersbury because the bus will surely be outside West Hampstead station?
 
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MikeWh

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I've not experienced using rail replacement buses with Oyster yet, but I've been told that the system will recognise the two halves of the journey and join them up. You shouldn't need to touch in on the bus. My advice would be to check the journey history 3-4 days later and if the deductions don't look right, call the helpdesk. You may find you've had an email anyway by then.
 

34D

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Please let us know what the system does in fact charge. Also whether the replacement bus is a dedicated rail rep, or just a "passengers may use bus 123" or whatever.
 
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142094

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I'm sure someone on here pointed out once that they got onto a replacement bus and did not have to swipe their Oyster, so received part of the journey for free. However someone in London will have to say how frequent that can happen.
 

jon0844

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I've never been on a rail replacement bus or coach where I've had to show a ticket. The driver, most likely contracted, doesn't care - and the people on the ground are more concerned with people management and getting the buses loaded and out.

The most anyone will ask you is where you're going, in cases where there might be different buses doing different stopping patterns (in line with the trains they replaced).
 

W-on-Sea

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No, you wouldn't swipe your Oyster on a rail replacement bus. (It might not even have an oyster pad on)

On an ordinary bus, on a regular route that you were using because the tube/train was closed for engineering works - you would; but not on a specifically laid-on rail replacement one.

(West Hampstead to Gunnersbury would definitely be a rail replacement bus; there are no regular buses from West hampstead that go in that direction at all)
 

34D

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I've never been on a rail replacement bus or coach where I've had to show a ticket. The driver, most likely contracted, doesn't care - and the people on the ground are more concerned with people management and getting the buses loaded and out.

The most anyone will ask you is where you're going, in cases where there might be different buses doing different stopping patterns (in line with the trains they replaced).

Need to correct you here. As someone who's done it in the past, the various guidelines to rail rep providers (and here, I mean both coach companies provided via Fraser Eagle as was, and also standard London buses provided by the various bus companies in and around London) make very clear that any ticket checking is to be done by railco staff only, and that the bus drivers solely drive and confirm to passengers their stopping pattern.
 

Greenback

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Isn't that pretty much what he said?!

I have never had to show a ticket to anyone on or near any replacement bus ever! I worked at Reading station where replacement buses could be a real nightmare to organise, and there simply wasn't the time or inclination for rail staff to check the tickets!
 

jon0844

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I did mean by 'doesn't care' that the driver doesn't care if people have tickets or not, as s/he is paid to drive buses as contracted.

It wasn't a suggestion the driver was lazy or rude. If a TOC hires in buses and coaches, they have to get drivers to go with them. And the driver only has to worry about following the pace notes and going the right way...

How could a driver do anything else? Refuse entry to the bus? Issue a penalty fare? Issue a new ticket with a non-existent ticket machine?

Now, if RPIs were to stop those without tickets boarding the buses at night, I'd be all for it (imagine the faces of those who are now potentially left in the middle of nowhere) but it would probably be seen as a breach of their human rights in the eyes of the Daily Mail and backfire.
 

W-on-Sea

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Funny you should say that, jonmorris0844.

Coming back from London (very) late last Sunday night c2c staff (probably not RPIs with authority to issue penalty fares, however) WERE checking that everyone who got on the rail-replacement bus at Basildon (on to all stations to Leigh) did have a valid ticket before letting them on the bus. Although in my experience this is not usual practice, and I don't think there were any such staff at the bus stops by the other stations en route.
 

jon0844

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I wonder how many claimed to have lost their ticket, or dropped it.
 

W-on-Sea

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To be honest 12.30am on a Sunday night/Monday morning is a bit too late for most fare-dodgers.

My impression is also that Basildon is one of the main stations on the line at which fare dodgers (often going only one stop to Pitsea) get on, even when the ticket barriers are in use (seeing lads climbing up the viaduct and vaulting over the platform-edge fence to get onto/off the platforms is not a rare sight at Bas).

So if there were any locals (as opposed to those transferring from the train from London) planning to get on the buses for free, as they might usually do the trains, the visual presence of the staff was already doing its job - no need for them to tell silly lies which wouldn't have been believed.
 

jon0844

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I've only ever made a few trips on c2c and the stuff I saw was alarming, to say the least.

The arguments and aggression from passengers (well, chavs), the need for staff to wear head mounted cameras (I'd never seen that before, even with the police) and people jumping over the gates.

What also got me was that I guess the TOC knows who most of the offenders are and it's a game of cat and mouse, and in many cases it becomes personal.

Do they keep the gates operational later than other TOCs?
 

WestCoast

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I've only ever made a few trips on c2c and the stuff I saw was alarming, to say the least.

The arguments and aggression from passengers (well, chavs), the need for staff to wear head mounted cameras (I'd never seen that before, even with the police) and people jumping over the gates.

I am well used to chavs and louts on trains - late night Northern/TPE services can be 'interesting' to say the least!! The only time I've ever felt the need to move carriages was on c2c about two years ago - a group of rather aggressive louts were basically shouting rather nasty abuse at anyone and everyone in the carriage - in the middle of the day.

When my local operators are not running, they tend to use First who seems to contract out the buses and provide their own 'marshalling' staff, only ever seen one half-hearted ticket check. They didn't have a ticket machine, and the ticket office was closed, so what they would have done I don't know:roll:
 

Mojo

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In my experience if you use Oyster PAYG the buses are free, but I'm just wondering if some people here may have missed the concern the OP had?

If the trains were wondering then someone travelling Cricklewood to Twickenham avoiding zone 1 would pay a £2.00 off peak fare.

If one has to touch out at West Hampstead and back in at Gunnersbury, then one would pay £1.50 for Cricklewood to West Hampstead and then £1.70 Gunnersbury to Twickenham. £1.20 more.

To answer the question; I don't know the answer, but unless they allow you to touch in at West Hampstead NLL station and pass through the gates at Gunnersbury without touching in; one would probably need to claim for a refund?
 

MikeWh

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To answer the question; I don't know the answer, but unless they allow you to touch in at West Hampstead NLL station and pass through the gates at Gunnersbury without touching in; one would probably need to claim for a refund?

I've been led to believe that they will match up such pairs of journeys and adjust the balance, either by programming a temporary OSI, or processing an operational refund afterwards. This is why I suggested waiting a few days before calling the helpdesk.
 

W-on-Sea

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I've only ever made a few trips on c2c and the stuff I saw was alarming, to say the least.

The arguments and aggression from passengers (well, chavs), the need for staff to wear head mounted cameras (I'd never seen that before, even with the police) and people jumping over the gates.

What also got me was that I guess the TOC knows who most of the offenders are and it's a game of cat and mouse, and in many cases it becomes personal.

Do they keep the gates operational later than other TOCs?

Funny, OK I should say I am local to a fairly rough place on the line (and returned to a rather nicer place in what is now c2cland a few years ago after a good 15 years away), but in general I find *on the main line* (the two lines that run via Grays and Tilbury are perhaps a different matter) that it's generally a trouble-free environment - although some late-night trains can be horrendously overcrowded (and consequently mildly rowdy) if they are run, as they usually are, as 4-car sets. In no way would I describe any of Laindon. Basildon or Pitsea as agreeable places, but in general trouble doesn't spill onto the trains at those places, despite the Basildon fare-dodgers.

But repeated experiences have led me to conclude that in general late night passengers on even crowded c2c trains (again, I add, on the main line, anyway) are far more civilised than those who one may run into on late night trains on even tube lines, like the Jubilee or Met, that run through nice areas of North-West London! The other thing I've noticed on c2c trains (which I think is relatively unusual) is that, if someone is mucking about, there's quite a good chance that someone (a passenger) will intervene and tell the miscreant to stop it.

I've never seen head-mounted cameras in c2c, but I do remember travelling on one train between Barking and Grays (via Rainham) one Sunday morning that was gripped, when I was the only passenger on the carriage I was in (out of about 10 people) to have a valid ticket. A slightly surreal experience....one of them spent 10 minutes arguing with a woman who claimed to be going from Barking to a church in Upminster and who thought that it would be OK to do so travelling via Grays. The grippers basically gave up after a while, and didn't even try to tackle some blatant fare-dodging at Grays either.

And I don't know about Southend Central or Barking - probably the two busiest stations, but in general the gates are left open and unmanned after about 9/10pm at most stations (later still at Fenchurch Street), and much earlier on Sundays. They do have staff in fluorescent "customer service" bibs (replacing the far less friendly security staff they used to subcontract a similar role to) on selected late night trains.

EDIT: Now I think about it Grays and Tilbury Town (which one might reasonably expect to be the most trouble-inducing stations on the network) sometimes have security staff by the gates later in the evening. It's easy to tell when Tilbury Town is unstaffed as every single window suddenly becomes shuttered!

I'd say the overwhelming majority of problems on c2c are essentially in the category of "anti-social behaviour" rather than crime, as such (faredodging excluded - but it is not generally a "free for all", like the North London Line was in Silverlink days...) : I've certainly never felt unsafe on their trains. Both the District and NXEA lines in East London strike me as being far dodgier!
 

jon0844

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It was Grays where staff were wearing the headcams, which seemed surreal. I mean, rail security staff on duty in the middle of a weekday is bad enough - but wearing cameras? What has become of society to make that necessary?

A fare evader who had jumped the gates was goading staff at Chafford Hundred (staff that didn't, and were presumably under strict instructions not to, get involved) as if it was just a game, and there was plenty of anti-social behaviour on the train going to and from Southend for the airshow last year.

This is why I wonder what goes on at certain times, when some staff (well, more likely security guards) try and get even and play the scrotes at their own game.

I'd agree that it's mainly anti-social behaviour, but that doesn't make you feel comfortable. Simply standing on a platform and witnessing anything makes you feel unsafe as it doesn't take much to suddenly find yourself surrounded by people asking what the **** you're looking at etc, and the fear that people around you will all put their heads to the ground.

I've been in situations where people do that (not with me under 'attack') but have seen the flipside where passengers do 'unite and fight', but you'll never quite know - which is why people let these chavs get away with whatever they want. If only there was a day that everyone stood up and said 'enough'!

Anyway, that's quite a bit off topic. Let me just swipe my Oyster before I get overcharged. ;)
 
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