Oyster on Heathrow Express

[James H]

At this week's TfL board meeting, Mike Brown indicated that talks are under way with a view to introducing Oyster ticketing on Heathrow Express in advance of the opening of the Elizabeth Line

Approx 3 hours 20 mins in, on the webcast:
https://www.london.gov.uk/transport-london-board-meeting-2016-12-15

Stand by for another premium fare debacle like Gatwick.

 

[yorkie]

Special "Premium" readers charging a standalone fare of £21.90, excluded from all caps and not integrated into the through fare system, charged at a dedicated gateline, as at Platform 13/14 at Victoria?

And a side gate to the gateline for normal platforms, which they have to open at times of disruption . :roll:

 

[Mag_seven]

Its about time that Heathrow Airport (who own Heathrow express) were forced to to accept normal London/National Rail fares and stopped charging an extortionate fare for their services. What sticks in the throat is that their trains take up paths on the crowded GWML. Not only do they do that but their stock only runs at 100mph on a 125mph railway - madness! This should be forced on them as a result of being allowed to build a third runway.

 

[bb21]

Heathrow Express actually provide a premium service, as opposed to the shoddy Gatwick Express, so their fares are justified.

Will be sorry to see them go one day should it happen.

 

[bicbasher]

I'd like to see standard fares on Heathrow Connect for starters.

 

[MikeWh]

Special "Premium" readers charging a standalone fare of £21.90, excluded from all caps and not integrated into the through fare system, charged at a dedicated gateline, as at Platform 13/14 at Victoria?

And a side gate to the gateline for normal platforms, which they have to open at times of disruption . :roll:

Wow, what cynicism!

As bb21 says, at least HEx is a genuinely faster service which justifies the premium charge. Do HEx trains ever use 'other' platforms at Paddington? or normal GWR trains use the HEx platforms?

Also, I would not be at all suprised to find that one benefit of the back-office implimentation of Oyster is that the various premium services can actually get integrated into the normal structure. Thus a premium charge would be added onto the appropriate cap for each premium service used, possibly with a premium service cap.

 

[mattdickinson]

It was debated before in 2007.

See http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/oyster_pay_as_you_go_on_heathrow

 

[JonathanH]

Its about time that Heathrow Airport (who own Heathrow express) were forced to to accept normal London/National Rail fares and stopped charging an extortionate fare for their services. What sticks in the throat is that their trains take up paths on the crowded GWML. Not only do they do that but their stock only runs at 100mph on a 125mph railway - madness! This should be forced on them as a result of being allowed to build a third runway.

Over the distance that Heathrow Express runs 100 mph vs 125 mph isn't an issue - the junction for the airport was designed with a fast turnout and the acceleration of the 332s is better than anything else on the fast lines. Also the Heathrow Express paths allow trains leaving in front of them to stop at Slough, Maidenhead or Twyford as appropriate.

 

[matt_world2004]

How is it going to distinguish between heathrow connect fares a, and heathrow express fares also local trains do use the Heathrow Express platforms at evening and weekends , I would not be happy if a £21.90 hold was put on my contactless card for travelling to Hayes.

 

[AlterEgo]

How is it going to distinguish between heathrow connect fares a, and heathrow express fares also local trains do use the Heathrow Express platforms at evening and weekends , I would not be happy if a £21.90 hold was put on my contactless card for travelling to Hayes.

When you use contactless, a hold isn't put on your card. The transactions post without going through the normal authorisation process.

 

[matt_world2004]

When you use contactless, a hold isn't put on your card. The transactions post without going through the normal authorisation process.

Even then having a minimum of £21.90 on Oyster to travel to hayes or Ealing Broadway would take the mick.

 

[TheDavibob]

Assuming Crossrail requires the addition of Reading to the Oyster Network, there'll probably be fares exceeding £20 anyway, which will need the cap to go up. Unless there is a large Oyster price cut.

 

[JonathanH]

Assuming Crossrail requires the addition of Reading to the Oyster Network, there'll probably be fares exceeding £20 anyway, which will need the cap to go up. Unless there is a large Oyster price cut.

I suspect peak Reading to Gatwick via London would actually exceed £30, possibly £40 if enabled on Oyster so it isn't an easy conundrum to solve.

Current Anytime fare from Reading to Gatwick via London is £41.40 single, £57 anytime day return.

 

[swt class 450]

If Oyster and Contactless becomes valid on Heathrow Express we will just have the same problems that we have with Gatwick Express. At London Paddington station Heathrow Express trains sometimes use platforms 1 to 5 and 8 to 14 while Great Western Railway and Heathrow Connect trains sometimes use platforms 6 to 7 so just like London Victoria this will not work. I also imagine the "blue gestapo" will become just as useless and incompetent as the "red gestapo" if ticket barriers get installed.

 

[Clip]

If Oyster and Contactless becomes valid on Heathrow Express we will just have the same problems that we have with Gatwick Express. At London Paddington station Heathrow Express trains sometimes use platforms 1 to 5 and 8 to 14 while Great Western Railway and Heathrow Connect trains sometimes use platforms 6 to 7 so just like London Victoria this will not work. I also imagine the "blue gestapo" will become just as useless and incompetent as the "red gestapo" if ticket barriers get installed.

Sorry how will it 'not work' ?

 

[Failed Unit]

Heathrow express always check on the train. Basically turn the onus on them. No check on train no premium fare. (Maybe that should be applied to gatEx)

I have always got checked on the Heathrow express if I didn't they lose revenue.

 

[matt_world2004]

I suspect peak Reading to Gatwick via London would actually exceed £30, possibly £40 if enabled on Oyster so it isn't an easy conundrum to solve.

Current Anytime fare from Reading to Gatwick via London is £41.40 single, £57 anytime day return.

Current contactless limit is £30.00 that's for anything

 

[bb21]

Readers on trains? Not sure how much additional cost there will be but the technology is surely out there.

HEX are much better managed (not perfect, mind) than the shower known as Gatwick Express, so comparisons with GatEx will pretty much be meaningless.

 

[Failed Unit]

Readers on trains? Not sure how much additional cost there will be but the technology is surely out there.

HEX are much better managed (not perfect, mind) than the shower known as Gatwick Express, so comparisons with GatEx will pretty much be meaningless.

Considering they already have readers for mobile phones etc I am sure they wouldn't be afraid of the price.

The ones the RPIs have - do the check if you have tapped in or just you have credit to make the journey?

To be honest, HEx has enough ways of purchasing already not sure if I would ever use oyster. Mobile ticket is quick enough.

 

[bb21]

Considering they already have readers for mobile phones etc I am sure they wouldn't be afraid of the price.

The ones the RPIs have - do the check if you have tapped in or just you have credit to make the journey?

To be honest, HEx has enough ways of purchasing already not sure if I would ever use oyster. Mobile ticket is quick enough.

Just tag an extra £1 on each ticket if needed.

Part of me can't help but think that if they negotiated a deal with TfL for a surcharge of, say, £2 per ticket inclusive of a Zone 1-2 single journey, it would make their offering even more appealing to some people. Many tourists, for example, don't reach caps on their first day, and a significant minority also tend to relax on the first day after arrival and opt for some nearby locations to their hotels for sightseeing. An all-inclusive product allowing through ticketing to anywhere in the central zones would surely have a market, given that Paddington isn't exactly in the centre of all activities.

 

[Failed Unit]

Good point. I always used a hex / tube combo wishing i could do it all in one transaction.

Sadly for HEX once cross-rail opens I can't see me ever using it again.

I always want to go further and Farringdon and Liverpool Street will be extremely popular with so many other destinations in a single change at those stations.

 

[swt class 450]

Good point. I always used a hex / tube combo wishing i could do it all in one transaction.

Sadly for HEX once cross-rail opens I can't see me ever using it again.

I always want to go further and Farringdon and Liverpool Street will be extremely popular with so many other destinations in a single change at those stations.

I personally think that they should just get rid of Heathrow Express when Crossrail opens and have at least 8 Crossrail trains per hour to and from Heathrow Airport (4 to T4 and 4 to T5).

 

[MikeWh]

Current contactless limit is £30.00 that's for anything

Except when using the transit mode of contactless payments. The daily total can be as high as it needs to be because the transactions are actually authorised behind the scenes. If an authorisation fails then the card will not allow any futher entries to the system.

 

[MikeWh]

I would not be happy if a £21.90 hold was put on my contactless card for travelling to Hayes.

As far as I can see, no amount has yet been suggested. £21.90 was yorkie's poor attempt at extreme cynicism. Considering that Gatwick Express only charges £19.80 for a journey that is twice as long, and that isn't being increased next year, I think £21.90 at todays prices is extremely unlikely.

 

[greatkingrat]

The current paper single fare is £22 for HEx so I doubt the Oyster fare will be significantly less than that.

 

[MikeWh]

The current paper single fare is £22 for HEx so I doubt the Oyster fare will be significantly less than that.

Ah, thanks for that. Note to self, next time look up simple things like that.

 

[yorkie]

I was basing it on being a token 10p cheaper than GTR's Gatwick "Express" (which I agree with others, is not in the same league as Heathrow Express, which is a bona fide express!) as that's what happened with Gatwick.

 

[jon0844]

To be honest, HEx has enough ways of purchasing already not sure if I would ever use oyster. Mobile ticket is quick enough.

I like Oyster (or a CPC) for the flexibility. The ability to walk up and travel without queuing or planning in advance.

When I can finally travel on Oyster from home, a trip to Heathrow for me won't require buying a ticket in advance, and gives me the flexibility to rock up and choose whether to take HEX or HC. Currently I need to decide that in advance.

It's even better on the return at Heathrow, where I may well take HEX simply because I miss HC and airports don't really allow for good rail travel planning. Either held up, or get through far quicker than expected.

Tourists will prefer it too, if they've bought an Oyster in advance or get one at the airport on arrival (or on the plane). Or if they just use their contactless payment cards, Apple Pay etc.

 

[paddington]

Ignoring whether GEx actually provides a premium service or not, I would suggest the best way to implement premium fares on HEx/GEx is how the East Rail line (formerly the KCR) in Hong Kong does it with their First Class.

You would just use the normal gatelines or readers but have a separate standalone reader which you must touch before boarding the "premium" train. This reader would just charge you a supplement (which would be the current fare minus the non-premium fare). This could even be charged immediately, and be independent of fare caps; meanwhile the regular fare for the journey would be charged by the Oyster-CPC back office as usual and be subject to any capping and/or travelcard products held.

This would get rid of the problems with GEx and other GTR services using the wrong platforms at Victoria and also remove the need to charge a high Oyster entry fee at Gatwick.

Given the high prices there should be no problem funding a conductor to check tickets/scan Oysters and CPCs. The conductor could also carry a mobile POS to charge cards. If wanting to encourage payment before boarding, the on-board supplement could be higher than the pre-boarding supplement.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, that's a good way to do things and would mean a member of staff (or more) on GatEx trains to check, who could be trained to give advice on onward travel [perhaps even part paid for by airlines?] without needing to perform traditional guard duties.

I expect what would happen is only some trains would have them though, becoming like any other train where people can take their chances. But whatever the case, you'd need to impose a penalty, deal with paperwork and consider what to do with people who aren't living here. We wouldn't be able to demand an on the spot penalty or march someone to a cashpoint as you might have in other countries.