Oyster not tapped in - advice

[gazzak]

Genuine question, this happened to a friend who was with me today.

Today the Jubilee and Metropolitan lines were out of action, so we took a different route in to Wembley for the England v Germany ladies match. Route was Bushey to Wembley Park, and neither of us has ever used Bushey before. My friend had no credit on Oyster card as rarely uses it, I forgot my own Oyster so purchased a return ticket from the ticket office. Friend found out how much the cost was and put enough on Oyster card to cover the journey. Walked down to platform, no barriers, thought nothing of it.

Unbeknown to both of us there is an Oyster tap in point on the way down to the platforms which is recessed into the wall. Being used to using barriers only, none of us remembered or even thought about the need to tap in. If I'd had my Oyster card with me I'd not have tapped in either as I've only ever done it to open a barrier.

You can guess the rest. Inspectors on the train picked up the fact that my friend hadn't tapped in, and despite explaining the above treated my friend as a common criminal, even when one of the kids with us burst into tears. He was issued with a penalty notice for £40.

Does he have a chance at appealing this? As explained above it was a genuine mistake.

Thanks

 

[causton]

Unfortunately, the £40 is for a "genuine mistake", and will be £80 if not paid soon enough. I would pay it, the readers are not shouting out at you but they are also not that easily missed... unfortunately I would consider it a lesson learned.

Edit: For the benefit of people not in the know, the validators are on the right hand wall in this photograph:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_BSH/images/photos/800/o1339-0000021.jpg

 

[yorkie]

... treated my friend as a common criminal, even when one of the kids with us burst into tears. He was issued with a penalty notice for £40....

If they had treated your friend as an alleged criminal, then they would not have issued a penalty notice and would instead have taken details for the prosecution department to consider a criminal prosecution under the Railway Byelaws, which would be almost impossible to defend against because it's 'strict liability'. Or, if they thught it was deliberate, they could prosecute under the Regulation of Railways Act, but they would need to demonstrate intent for such a prosecution to succeed.

However they treated it as a mistake, for which a Penalty Fare is chargeable.

If you wish to complain about the way the inspectors behaved, feel free to do so, but I don't think the Train Companies that issue Penalty Fares are particularly bothered about such complaints, at least that's the impression I get.

Does he have a chance at appealing this? As explained above it was a genuine mistake.

Thanks

An appeal against a Penalty Fare, which is a charge made for a genuine mistake under circumstances, would need to have some basis such as inadequate signage at Bushey. I'm not familiar enough with the station (having only used it a few times) to say whether or not the signage is adequate or not, but if you only want to appeal on the basis that it was a mistake, that's not a reason for which an appeal would succeed as that's what Penalty Fares are for.

 

[gazzak]

An appeal against a Penalty Fare, which is a charge made for a genuine mistake under circumstances, would need to have some basis such as inadequate signage at Bushey. I'm not familiar enough with the station (having only used it a few times) to say whether or not the signage is adequate or not, but if you only want to appeal on the basis that it was a mistake, that's not a reason for which an appeal would succeed as that's what Penalty Fares are for.

Thanks Yorkie. If you look at causton's picture above, I would ask you to spot the validator. Then consider if you're not even used to using them?

 

[Mugby]

Forgive my ignorance in such matters, as one who has not yet owned an Oyster Card but when a train is checked, how do inspectors know if a card hasn't been tapped in?

 

[Mojo]

Forgive my ignorance in such matters, as one who has not yet owned an Oyster Card but when a train is checked, how do inspectors know if a card hasn't been tapped in?

Because they use a portable reader which tells them whether an Oyster card has been touched in or not (and/or also whether it contains a valid product that would allow travel anyway).

 

[bb21]

Thanks Yorkie. If you look at causton's picture above, I would ask you to spot the validator. Then consider if you're not even used to using them?

I don't think you can judge by that picture.

To me it looks pretty obvious where it is, but someone unfamiliar might not be able to see it in that picture.

As mentioned earlier, if the station were busy, it could be easily missed if you walked in the middle surrounded by people and were distracted. However if one is aware that touching in is required, I don't think the readers are difficult to spot. They are mostly well signposted at Overground stations and in my experience Bushey is no different. I don't think a successful challenge is likely.

Did it not strike your friend as strange that he could not touch in anywhere before boarding?

 

[Via Bank]

You don't have any chance of appealing this. Your friend did not touch in, and so did not hold a valid ticket or smart card for their journey.

Pay up, and then feel free to write to TfL to complain about the poor signage for the Oyster readers. There is an extremely slender chance they will do something about it, or perhaps offer RTVs as a goodwill gesture.

Do not expect a refund, though. In my experience, LOROL stations have very clear posters stating you must always touch in and out at the start and end of your journey. If your friend didn't see the Oyster reader, they should've asked where it was at the office or the help point.

 

[Flamingo]

If you wish to complain about the way the inspectors behaved, feel free to do so, but I don't think the Train Companies that issue Penalty Fares are particularly bothered about such complaints, at least that's the impression I get.

Probably because such complaints are almost mandatory. I lost count of the number I have had in similar circumstances - some of them have been followed up by other passengers writing in to say how professionally I had handles the same situation. I suppose it depends on your perception.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks Yorkie. If you look at causton's picture above, I would ask you to spot the validator. Then consider if you're not even used to using them?

It's more about signage really, and without seeing the station (or a series of good quality photos showing clearly the view from your approach to the station onto the train) I couldn't say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Probably because such complaints are almost mandatory....

Yes, that's true.

 

[Clip]

Thanks Yorkie. If you look at causton's picture above, I would ask you to spot the validator. Then consider if you're not even used to using them?

Looks like one is by the stairs on the right hand side but it really is irrelevant along with the not being familiar with using Oyster.

Surely your friend would know they have to touch in so the fact they didnt really look for the validator is whats let them down in this instance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For stations like these, to avoid this, might it be better to look at the approach you often get in Germany and Austria, where you have a clearly marked line at both floor and ceiling level saying "you must have a valid ticket past this point", and pseudo-barriers (with no actual barrier) along that line with validators fitted to them, so it's really glaringly obvious when you must validate your ticket?

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

For stations like these, to avoid this, might it be better to look at the approach you often get in Germany and Austria, where you have a clearly marked line at both floor and ceiling level saying "you must have a valid ticket past this point", and pseudo-barriers (with no actual barrier) along that line with validators fitted to them, so it's really glaringly obvious when you must validate your ticket?

Neil

Compulsory Ticket Areas address this to some extent but are not present everywhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Compulsory Ticket Areas address this to some extent but are not present everywhere.

I think well marked CTAs, German-style, are the best solution at any station that can't be barriered where all services operate PFs.

Neil

 

[TheEdge]

For stations like these, to avoid this, might it be better to look at the approach you often get in Germany and Austria, where you have a clearly marked line at both floor and ceiling level saying "you must have a valid ticket past this point", and pseudo-barriers (with no actual barrier) along that line with validators fitted to them, so it's really glaringly obvious when you must validate your ticket?

Neil

But anyone who has even the vaguest understanding of Oyster and how it works knows you have to tap in and out. I've been through Overground and Underground stations without barriers in the normal sense and on no occasion did I just forget about tapping in and out.

Why are people slowly moving towards there need to be signs for absolutely everything. I had someone with no sense of irony complain to me that my TOC needed to display warning signs warning them that nothing would happen if they didn't have a ticket. Surely you know if you are on a train ypu need to have paid in some manner?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But anyone who has even the vaguest understanding of Oyster and how it works knows you have to tap in and out. I've been through Overground and Underground stations without barriers in the normal sense and on no occasion did I just forget about tapping in and out.

You're genuinely lucky, then, that you have an exceptional memory. Other people forget things, and a hardware reminder like passing through a visible barrier (even if it's not an *actual* barrier) might make them quickly check. I've on one or two occasions when commuting been thankful that Bletchley has barriers, because it's prevented me from inadvertently boarding a train having forgotten my ticket, which might have cost me a PF.

I recall using Finsbury Park the other month - the Oyster readers are against the wall, you don't see them unless really looking for them. It'd be easy to end up on the platform without touching in then have to go on the hunt (or naturally forget, as when you're on the platform you've generally passed the barriers, those being the usual touch in point). Why not place them more prominently? (Actually, I'll be honest - I'm amazed Finsbury Park is not barriered).

Why are people slowly moving towards there need to be signs for absolutely everything. I had someone with no sense of irony complain to me that my TOC needed to display warning signs warning them that nothing would happen if they didn't have a ticket.

Your TOC being one with unstaffed stations and paying on the train, I guess? Yes, it would be friendly to display a sign saying "This station has no ticket issuing facilities/only has a ticket machine with a limited range of tickets/payment methods. Please obtain your ticket on board or at your destination". BR used to do exactly that, and some of those signs remain.

Those who say it doesn't need pointing out are increasing the anxiety of occasional users. Making these things prominent is easy and cheap. So why not?

The aim should be nobody gets PFed by mistake, because you make the system simple, understandable and consistent. If too many people are making genuine mistakes, the system needs looking at.

Neil

 

[Clip]

Ive not been to bushey for quite some time but I know all the LO stations I ahve used along with LuL and DLR and even the Trams - they all have notices up for PAYG passengers to make sure they touch in and out before thier journey - why is this not enough?

 

[MikeWh]

People do forget things, even seasoned Oyster users. If you don't often top up (say because you have auto topup but your brother is with you and using a spare card) it is very easy to confuse topping up with touching in. I know because that's exactly what happened one Sunday evening to me and my brother.

Unfortunately if you meet an RPI then it is a clear penalty fare, but I would certainly back calls for a change whereby a lesser penalty could be charged if a top up had been made at the starting point. That isn't the case at the moment though, so my advice is as per others - pay the £40 before it becomes £80.

 

[Class377]

If a penalty fare is charged by an inspector, is the user also liable for a maximum fare at the end of their journey? Seems a bit harsh to penalise twice for one mistake!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think well marked CTAs, German-style, are the best solution at any station that can't be barriered where all services operate PFs.

IIRC the Overground platforms at Bushey are CTAs. Stations Made Difficult shows the warning signs at the foot of the stairs to platforms 1 and 2. Though you might not see the signs unless you walk up the stairs with your head turned through 90 degrees.

It's incredibly easy to forget to touch in, I've done it when I had a Travelcard on Oyster. It's also easy to forget after topping up, especially like- as at Bushey- the touch in reader is by the ticket machine.

But the rules are the rules and I'd recommend paying the £40 before it becomes £80. The OP could then consider a complaint to London Overground about the signage.

 

[Via Bank]

If a penalty fare is charged by an inspector, is the user also liable for a maximum fare at the end of their journey? Seems a bit harsh to penalise twice for one mistake!

An exit token is applied to the card so pax charged a PF are not charged twice.

 

[island]

An exit token is applied to the card so pax charged a PF are not charged twice.

I don't believe that is correct. However, a passenger charged a Penalty Fare during the journey (as opposed to at the destination) will be issued with a document which he can present to the gateline attendant at his destination to be let out.