Oyster negative balance query

[DJL]

I forgot to top up my oyster last time I was in London and now I'm pretty sure it does not have enough remaining on it for me to get back into London.

It does however have enough to make some journeys from my local station so I guess touching in would be allowed.
Will I be able to touch out with a negative balance and then subsequently top it up back to a positive balance or will the barrier squark at me?

I don't trust the newsagent and from memory an online top-up can only be collected from a tube station? (that's assuming I can remember the password)

Will I be ok to use my oyster resulting in a slightly negative balance on touchout or am I better off buying a paper ticket for one day?

 

[LexyBoy]

You can collect an online top-up from most Oyster zone National Rail stations. I'm a bit confused as to what your local station is if not in London? Alternatively (in future at least), auto top-up will work wherever you are, but does need to be activated the first time in the same way as collection.

If you make the journey into London, incurring a negative balance, the barriers will let you out but if inspected en-route you risk a Penalty Fare or prosecution.

 

[transmanche]

I don't trust the newsagent

What??? :-?

 

[LexyBoy]

What??? :-?

http://metro.co.uk/2013/06/25/newsagent-sold-commuters-fake-oyster-card-top-ups-worth-10000-3856106/
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/newsagent-stole-6000-from-oyster-card-customers-in-mean-and-greedy-fraud-8922233.html

Reportedly quite a widespread problem. Maybe the OP has had top-ups "accidentally" not go onto his card before. It's a shame that NR stations are not required to provide the full range of ticket options in the London area, as facilities at the station are much more trustworthy (not to mention convenient).

 

[DJL]

You can collect an online top-up from most Oyster zone National Rail stations. I'm a bit confused as to what your local station is if not in London? Alternatively (in future at least), auto top-up will work wherever you are, but does need to be activated the first time in the same way as collection.

If you make the journey into London, incurring a negative balance, the barriers will let you out but if inspected en-route you risk a Penalty Fare or prosecution.

My local station in St Mary Cray.
It's been years since I was on the oyster website. I'm pretty sure last time I was you could only collect from a tube station - if this has changed then that is definitely good news and sounds like the best option.

I don't want to risk a penalty fare obviously; even though I've only ever once seen an inspector on this route in 1 year now - it's just not worth the risk.

Now I just need to see if I can get into the oyster website...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can't seem to figure out the details I need.
I'm thinking it might be easier to order a new card - seeing as there's not much on this one anyway...

 

[transmanche]

http://metro.co.uk/2013/06/25/newsagent-sold-commuters-fake-oyster-card-top-ups-worth-10000-3856106/
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/newsagent-stole-6000-from-oyster-card-customers-in-mean-and-greedy-fraud-8922233.html

Reportedly quite a widespread problem.

So if the OP is worried about the potential of fraud, the simple solution is to keep the receipt...

 

[DJL]

So if the OP is worried about the potential of fraud, the simple solution is to keep the receipt...

That won't help me get into work will it...

 

[transmanche]

That won't help me get into work will it...

Well the chance of you actually being defrauded is tiny, when you consider the total number of top-ups versus the the number of frauds. And in the unlikely event that you were actually defrauded and you got stopped by an RPI, you'd have the receipt to show evidence of having topped-up before travelling.

 

[Deerfold]

http://metro.co.uk/2013/06/25/newsagent-sold-commuters-fake-oyster-card-top-ups-worth-10000-3856106/
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/newsagent-stole-6000-from-oyster-card-customers-in-mean-and-greedy-fraud-8922233.html

Reportedly quite a widespread problem.

Serious, certainly, but not widespread unless I've missed a multitude of similar reports.

TfL's annual income is £3bn.

So the fraud in the above 2 cases accounts for 0.0005% of that income.

Even if you take into account the fact that not all the income is via Oyster it's still a tiny percentage.

 

[mrmartin]

Woah, what? Is it penalty fare-able to have a negative balance when you touch out? I've often gone -£1 or so by mistake (topped up straight after).

 

[DJL]

widespread or not I'd never trust a small independent shop with £90 of my money.

In any case it's looking like the weather will be fine for me to cycle tomorrow meaning I can get to London for free and topup while I'm there so none of the above is actually relevant on this occasion

 

[LexyBoy]

Woah, what? Is it penalty fare-able to have a negative balance when you touch out? I've often gone -£1 or so by mistake (topped up straight after).

I have too, it's very easy to do and reasonable to think that it is allowed - you have after all paid a deposit for this very reason. However you are required to have sufficient funds for the journey undertaken (see this discussion following a post on MSE where someone was issued a PF for this).

 

[transmanche]

widespread or not I'd never trust a small independent shop with £90 of my money.

I'd never top-up with £90!

If you're worried about fraud, then just top-up at the shop with a fiver or a tenner. Or better still, use auto top-up - job done!

 

[redbutton]

I can confirm that it's possible to collect online top-ups from NR-only stations, even those that don't handle Oyster at the ticket office. I did it all the time at my local station before switching to Auto-Top-Up.

Also, you can top up your Oyster card at the TVM at St Mary Cray should you not want to buy online or use a newsagent. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/SMY/details.html

As a last resort, you could touch in and travel as long as you have enough for the cheapest possible journey from that station, then end up negative when you touch out. The barriers will operate like usual. However, as has been noted by others in this thread, you could receive a PF if you encounter revenue staff.

To me, that begs the question: what happens if you touch in with enough credit to make the intended journey, but then plans change enroute?

 

[LexyBoy]

To me, that begs the question: what happens if you touch in with enough credit to make the intended journey, but then plans change enroute?

You'd be in the same situation as if you held a paper ticket and changed your plans I'd think.

 

[island]

You can top up at the TVM at St. Mary Cray or collect an online transaction when you touch in there.

 

[yorkie]

And if you enable auto top-up you will never have to worry about any of this again!

You have to nominate the station to initiate the auto top-up by approx 2300 the night before (unless that's changed), but every subsequent top-up happens automatically at any location (including buses).

 

[hassaanhc]

I have too, it's very easy to do and reasonable to think that it is allowed - you have after all paid a deposit for this very reason. However you are required to have sufficient funds for the journey undertaken (see this discussion following a post on MSE where someone was issued a PF for this).

I got -£2.20 once when I started from inside my Travelcard zones with £0 and went outside. I've often done this, touching in with enough for the cheapest journey and topping up afterwards. But probably not a good idea really, well with the -£2.20 I then decided to use a paper ticket up to my Travelcard zones and Oyster Travelcard from there onwards, and narrowly avoided a £20 penalty fare as the barriers wouldn't let me out . So I'll no longer do this. The funny thing is it still worked fine on buses and trams with -£2.20 let alone a smaller amount...

 

[MikeWh]

I got -£2.20 once when I started from inside my Travelcard zones with £0 and went outside. I've often done this, touching in with enough for the cheapest journey and topping up afterwards. But probably not a good idea really, well with the -£2.20 I then decided to use a paper ticket up to my Travelcard zones and Oyster Travelcard from there onwards, and narrowly avoided a £20 penalty fare as the barriers wouldn't let me out . So I'll no longer do this. The funny thing is it still worked fine on buses and trams with -£2.20 let alone a smaller amount...

A travelcard is suspended if the Oyster PAYG balance is negative. As you discovered, you can still use buses, probably because there is no danger of further revenue loss. It also avoids vulnerable people being completely stranded.

 

[transmanche]

Interestingly I've seen this FOI request where TfL reply:

So long as customers have successfully touched in, and thus achieved a valid entry, they will always be allowed to exit a ticket barrier within the permitted journey time from the entry, regardless of card balance at the time of exit.

However exit ticket gates will reject any card which is in negative balance and does not have a preceding entry within maximum journey time (which may arise from failure to touch in or from exceeding maximum journey time for the journey attempted or due to an extraneous intervening validation such as on a bus).

And when asked what happens if someone touched-in properly at Wimbledon, travelled to Waterloo on an SWT train and was left with a negative balance on touching out:

When an Oyster card top-up takes place the money passes to TfL. All deductions from cards on usage (including any which place cards into negative balance) are allocated by TfL to the appropriate operators. So the negative balance can represent money passed to a TOC, but that passage is at the time of creation of the negative balance rather than the time of next top-up. [...] In this example South West Trains receives from TfL the value of the deduction(s) made from the card in respect of the journey, and the liability for the negative balance falls to TfL.

This suggests to me that (morally at least) TOCs have no business issuing penalty fares to people with a negative balance on their Oyster card, as the TOC will be paid by TfL regardless.

(MikeWh, this may already be known and on your site: apologies if it is... but I couldn't recall seeing it there.)

 

[island]

I would be surprised if the average RPI on interrogating an Oyster card that had a valid touch-in did more than nod, say "thank you", and move on.

Before piling in on me with terms, conditions, and experiences, please note the word "average" preceding "RPI".

 

[DJL]

And if you enable auto top-up you will never have to worry about any of this again!

You have to nominate the station to initiate the auto top-up by approx 2300 the night before (unless that's changed), but every subsequent top-up happens automatically at any location (including buses).

Unfortunately I can't seem to get my details right for the oyster card website - which makes this rather tricky...

I cycled in yesterday and topped up at the tube station so all is well for now