Oyster maximum fare questions

[damo44]

I've just started using Oyster payg - I've only made simple point to point journeys so far and haven't had any problems, however I've read enough on these forums to know how complex a system it is. A couple of questions have formed in my head and if anyone knows the answers I'm sure they are here...

1. If you forget to tap out, you are charged a maximum fare and I completely understand this. What I don't understand is why this doesn't count towards the daily cap.

2. If you tap into a station and change your mind about travelling (for whatever reason) within 2 minutes why does it charge a maximum fare? That isn't long enough to travel anywhere. Also why doesn't this charge for going nowhere contribute to the cap.

Thanks


David

 

[island]

Both of these are to discourage fare evasion.

For (1) additionally, which cap would it count towards? It's worth remembering that the highest daily cap is £27.90 so it would not make a difference in many cases.

 

[Mojo]

The reason there is a Maximum fare charged for touching in and then immediately touching out is to mitigate against the possibility of someone using their Oyster card to pass through the gateline, and then travelling free to an ungated station at the other end.

 

[pne]

How do they discourage fare evasion?

 

[bb21]

Touch in and then immediately out, travel without a validated Oyster.

Checks onboard on LU is rare, so effectively a free journey.

 

[damo44]

For (1) additionally, which cap would it count towards?

Thanks, I hadn't considered different cap levels as I usually just travel around zone 1 off-peak, maybe 2 of I'm feeling adventurous.

I don't get the fare evasion angle though.

For (1) you end up paying more (or at least the same) than if you've tapped out correctly so how does it discourage evasion?

In (2) what could you do in those 2 minutes except briefly stand on the platform before leaving the station. Even if it were 10 minutes, could you gain any benefit other than travel 1 station down the line and come straight back without having left the system?

Thanks


David

 

[bb21]

For (1) you end up paying more (or at least the same) than if you've tapped out correctly so how does it discourage evasion?

Surely that is the point. By charging more if not touching in/out correctly, it discourages opportunist fare evasion because it isn't worth it.

Those hellbent on avoiding paying cannot be catered for through a technological solution normally.

In (2) what could you do in those 2 minutes except briefly stand on the platform before leaving the station. Even if it were 10 minutes, could you gain any benefit other than travel 1 station down the line and come straight back without having left the system?

The three posts above addresses this point, unless I am missing something obvious?

 

[swt_passenger]

In (2) what could you do in those 2 minutes except briefly stand on the platform before leaving the station. Even if it were 10 minutes, could you gain any benefit other than travel 1 station down the line and come straight back without having left the system?
David

I don't think you're looking at this correctly. The thing they are preventing is that you could stay on the paid side after touching the out gate reader, but without going through it. If there wasn't a max cash fare charged you'd now be on a station platform without a validated Oyster.

 

[MikeWh]

It's worth remembering that the highest daily cap is £27.90 so it would not make a difference in many cases.

That's a slight exaggeration. The vast majority of journeys are completed within zones 1-6 where the daily cap is only £11.70.

Thanks, I hadn't considered different cap levels as I usually just travel around zone 1 off-peak, maybe 2 of I'm feeling adventurous.

I don't get the fare evasion angle though.

For (1) you end up paying more (or at least the same) than if you've tapped out correctly so how does it discourage evasion?

In (2) what could you do in those 2 minutes except briefly stand on the platform before leaving the station. Even if it were 10 minutes, could you gain any benefit other than travel 1 station down the line and come straight back without having left the system?

Thanks


David

If it counted towards the cap then you could get any number of free journeys
once you'd exhausted the cap. The way people do it is to touch in, walk through the gate, touch out and not walk through the gate but travel to an ungated station.

 

[damo44]

Surely that is the point.

Fair point, I was still half-thinking of why you you get the double whammy of paying maximum dare and not counting towards the cap - overlooking that had just been explained.


[/QUOTE]The three posts above addresses this point, unless I am missing something obvious?[/QUOTE]

Because I hadn't seen those posts (and later ones) before I posted my reply. Also the possibility of tapping in and immediately out but still being able to travel hadn't crossed my mind. I've only ever gone through a gate immediately after tapping my Oyster card, the thought of not actually exiting hadn't occurred to me

Thanks


David

 

[MikeWh]

Because I hadn't seen those posts (and later ones) before I posted my reply.

Don't worry, that's a serious failing of the software that powers this site. It would be so easy to check if new posts have been added while typing a reply (other free forum software does) but instead they let you think yours is still the next post.

Obviously this is not a criticism of this sites admin team.

 

[bb21]

Yeah a bit of a tricky issue sometimes in popular threads.

 

[Fiyero]

2. If you tap into a station and change your mind about travelling (for whatever reason) within 2 minutes why does it charge a maximum fare?

That one caught me out when I didn't expect it. I went to Baker Street for Madame Tussauds then went back in to the bakery that is train side of the gate line, bought a cake and came back out. Didn't know there was an issue until I tried to leave after going to Madame Tussauds and by then the man in the ticket office couldn't help and I had to phone but they couldn't fix it that day. What a kerfuffle.
I have also been got for not tapping out (my fault but not expected) and spending too long on a journey (helping a friend attempt the tube-challenge, should have gone out and back in at cockfosters but just got on another train). Think I've got the hang of the rules now

 

[Dent]

If it counted towards the cap then you could get any number of free journeys once you'd exhausted the cap.

Isn't that the point of a cap?

 

[MikeWh]

Isn't that the point of a cap?

Yes for normal journeys, but not travelling all over for a 1-2 cap.

 

[Dent]

Yes for normal journeys, but not travelling all over for a 1-2 cap.

Who said anything about a 1-2 cap? The only specific cap that has been mentioned in this thread is 1-6.

 

[bb21]

The same argument applies.

The only sensible cap that could be applied is the most expensive one at £27.90 as pointed out at the beginning of the thread. There is probably not much point implementing it as hardly anyone will likely be penalised to that extent in one day.

 

[Dent]

The same argument applies.

The only sensible cap that could be applied is the most expensive one at £27.90 as pointed out at the beginning of the thread. There is probably not much point implementing it as hardly anyone will likely be penalised to that extent in one day.

The argument that "If it counted towards the cap then you could get any number of free journeys" would not apply if the highest available cap was applied, since it would not allow anyone to pay less than if they had touched in and out on each journey.

How many people would benefit from applying such a cap is impossible to answer with the available information.

 

[bb21]

Well that is a decision for TfL to make. There is nothing forcing them to count maximum journey charges towards any cap. Some people may be affected, but I doubt that the number would be at all significant. (You can argue that there is no statistics available, but an educated guess can be made.)

Maximum journey charges can normally be refunded, provided that a reasonable explanation is given. However if the touch-in/out pattern arouses suspicion then further investigation can be done (and normally is) by TfL.

There is also an argument to say that not counting towards any cap gives the unwittingly affected passenger (who is dopey enough to end up with more than ~£30 worth of maximum journey charges) more incentive to ring up and obtain a refund, whereas if they counted towards the £27 cap, a lot of people may just not bother for the sake of a few £s, especially if their appropriate cap were ~£20 or something close like that.

I really don't see it as such a big deal.

 

[Dent]

Well that is a decision for TfL to make. There is nothing forcing them to count maximum journey charges towards any cap.

Was anyone questioning that it was their decision, or advocagting forcing anything? I don't believe so. The discussion is about whether the right decision was made.

Some people may be affected, but I doubt that the number would be at all significant. (You can argue that there is no statistics available, but an educated guess can be made.)

You can't make an educated guess if you have no evidence on which to base such a guess.

I really don't see it as such a big deal.

Evidently others do see the issue, as shown by the fact that this discussion exists.

 

[bb21]

You can't make an educated guess if you have no evidence on which to base such a guess.

I don't, but TfL will have statistics on the number of maximum journey fares charged and would have done analysis on them.

Evidently others do see the issue, as shown by the fact that this discussion exists.

Go one then, what is the problem? Moaning by itself does not mean there is an issue.

 

[Dent]

Go one then, what is the problem? Moaning by itself does not mean there is an issue.

The problem is that customers are being overcharged.

 

[bb21]

The problem is that customers are being overcharged.

Can you elaborate? How are they being overcharged?

As I explained before, if it were a simple mistake where one unwittingly exceeded the maximum journey time, the helpline would be more than happy to adjust the charge and refund anything over and above the correct fare. If it were a one-off mistake where the passenger forgot to touch in/out, my experience also suggests that you are given the benefit of the doubt. Even if they don't, applying the £27 cap is not going to help cases where there are one or two maximum journey charges. If anyone has more than that, then questions will likely be asked as to why and how. I bet you any money that not many people who are honest in paying their fare end up with three or more maximum journey fare due to failed touch-ins/outs in one day.

 

[Dent]

Can you elaborate? How are they being overcharged?

If a customer was charged a maximum journey charge then they have been charged a maximum journey charge, which is more than they should have been charged (the corect fare for their journey after taking capping into account, or nothing if they have not travelled). That is the definition of overcharged.

As I explained before, if it were a simple mistake where one unwittingly exceeded the maximum journey time, the helpline would be more than happy to adjust the charge and refund anything over and above the correct fare.

They may get their money back eventually, but that would require them to waste their own time as well as incur the cost the call to the helpline, to get back what they should never have been charged in the first place. The fact that customers have to do this is an issue.

It's not only customers who have done something wrong who get overcharged. It can also happen due, for example, to service disruption, or an equipment fault. Demanding that customers who have already faced disruption through no fault of their own call a helpline in their own time and at their own expense, and remain out of pocket until it is settled, is bad customer service.

 

[bb21]

You seem to want a perfect system. How would you design the system then?

 

[Dent]

You seem to want a perfect system. How would you design the system then?

I never said anything about wanting a perfect system, I merely pointed out that a problem with the system is a problem, in response to your trying to deny that.

It is not my responsibility to do TFL's job of designing their system for them.

 

[bb21]

I never said anything about wanting a perfect system, I merely pointed out that a problem with the system is a problem, in response to your trying to deny that.

... and there is a perfectly reasonable system in place to address these situations when these things arise. That to me means there is no problem. You seem to want to ignore this very important fact.

No system is ever going to be perfect. If appropriate mechanism is in place for when things go wrong, then what is the problem? Sometimes in life things go wrong, for all sorts of reasons. That is life.

You may have not said anything about wanting a perfect system, but the apparent fact that the fairly reasonable provision to address these issues when things go wrong as I have explained to you seems unacceptable to you points strongly towards that.

If you are so concerned about the cost of a phone call, use email, or ask them to reimburse you the cost of the call. Last time did, they willingly refunded the cost of the call, rounded up to the next £.

It is not my responsibility to do TFL's job of designing their system for them.

Do you not think that TfL may have looked at these problems and tried to come up with a better arrangement but couldn't, maybe because there is no better solution with all things considered?

Perhaps try and put yourself in their shoes and provide some constructive feedback.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you not think that TfL may have looked at these problems and tried to come up with a better arrangement but couldn't, maybe because there is no better solution with all things considered?

Perhaps try and put yourself in their shoes and provide some constructive feedback.

The only way it could practically be fixed is if their software could make a guess where you went if you failed to touch out, or could guess where you were coming from if failing to touch in, and could be guaranteed 100% accurate in every possible case...