Oyster - is there enough publicity?

[bakerstreet]

It's a genuine question.

I had a fascinating 10 minute train change today (well 'our' kind of fascinating if you see what I mean).

I was at a station around 40 mins out of Waterloo.

There were 2 RPIs at the exit barrier.

I was earwigging and being generally nosey (an RPI conversation I overheard some time ago gave me the idea for a meal to cook one night so they're quite useful).

In the 10 minutes I was waiting for my connection, 5 individual travellers were taken aside, they were not part of a group.

All 5 were PF'd.

All 5 for only having an Oyster PAYG.

All looked genuinely shocked that it was not valid beyond Surbiton.

Given their cards now let them through the gateline at Waterloo, and are not like a printed ticket which tells you your destination, do you think that there is enough understanding as to what Oyster can / can't be used for now some NR accepts Oyster.

That was £100 collected for the toc in 10 mins all for Oyster PAYG.

Were they all trying it on? I doubt it.

Did they deserve a PF? well they won't do it again.

But I wonder if the Oyster message is clear enough now National Rail is part of the Oyster product in London.

 

[RJ]

Ignorance is not a defence - people shouldn't make those kind of assumptions without verifying the validity first. Nobody told them that their Oysters were valid beyond Zone 6 on the SWML?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Ignorance is not a defence?

True.
But the OP's question was "Is there enough publicity", and I must say that I beleive the "Oyster" permissions, variations and regulations are INADEQUATELY publicised. Particularly in the case of OSD's * (whose introduction was not advised to all existing Oyster card holders nor displayed at all entry points, and which I struggle to grasp anyway) and where the passenger's precise behaviour at interchanges may unwittingly render their journey 'invalid'.

Anyway, the real issue I have with this response is that it is unnecessarily polarised and adversarial - it is equally unreasonable for a TOC to provide the bare minimum of information on their complex regulations then charge PFs on the grounds that the passenger was ignorant of them. A service industry? With that attitude?

MikeWh recently obtained evidence which demonstrated that a passenger accused of travelling without an invalid "Oyster" 'ticket' was, in fact, travelling lawfully, and FCC withdrew the threat of Proceedings. But he only obtained those complex details from TfL after a FoI request!
I have no complaint with the vigourous pursuit of fare evaders and other 'chancers' using the railways with invalid tickets, but in return, the TOCs can and should do more to make their Conditions & Regulations clear, comprehensible, available, transparent and accountable. Sadly, they've failed.

No. There is not enough publicity.

[* for "OSD" please read "OEP". Thanks to MikeWh's correction below]

 

[transmanche]

Ignorance is not a defence - people shouldn't make those kind of assumptions without verifying the validity first.

How about some good customer service instead?

Here was an opportunity to educate some passengers. Remember the rules can seem bizarre to people who are unaware of the complexity of railway rules; there are stations outside of Z6 where Oyster is accepted and many TfL bus routes that go outside the zones.

if you get used to using Oyster on a regular basis, then in general you just forget about the zones - you rely on the system to just work. Then when you make the occasional journey to places outside the zones - possibly even on the same train that you travek on regularly - it's easy to forget that you need to do something different.

So no, there isn't enough publicity. Better still would be for TOCs to accept Oyster PAYG at more stations outside Greater London. At least to the first 'big' station (e.g. Woking, Reading, Stevenage).

 

[bakerstreet]

Ignorance is not a defence - people shouldn't make those kind of assumptions without verifying the validity first.

Interesting reaction RJ.

I had hoped it was clear this wasn't the spirit of my posting.

They accepted the fare (fine) and I'm not judging anyone.

My question was is there enough publicity?

Nobody told them that their Oysters were valid beyond Zone 6 on the SWML?

But is it clear enough they're not. It is valid on some NR beyond zone 6, and other NR have Oyster looking smart ticketing, but not Oyster.

Emotional judgements are not required : )

 

[mickey]

My question was is there enough publicity

In a word, no.

FGW RPIs tried to PF Ken Livingstone a while back, and his defence was that it was invalid because he offered them the chance to become part of Oyster PAYG and they refused so they could keep scamming money out of gullible passengers. They backed down and he won.

 

[FGWman]

In a word, no.

FGW RPIs tried to PF Ken Livingstone a while back, and his defence was that it was invalid because he offered them the chance to become part of Oyster PAYG and they refused so they could keep scamming money out of gullible passengers. They backed down and he won.

That was just some info given out to make it seem like it was the railways fault. He was actually travelling to Slough which is outside zone 6 so even if the railways had accepted Oyster at that time he would still have been liable for a PF.

 

[MikeWh]

But I wonder if the Oyster message is clear enough now National Rail is part of the Oyster product in London.

The general Oyster message is being communicated reasonably well, but the important specifics are woefully lacking. There should be clear messages on any platform where trains go beyond the Oyster system as to where the limit is.

Particularly in the case of OSD's (whose introduction was not advised to all existing Oyster card holders nor displayed at all entry points, and which I struggle to grasp anyway)

I think you mean OEPs. Introduced because the TOCs were petrified about losing revenue at ungated stations in zones 4, 5 and 6; then exploited by SET at their fully secure London terminals at the point passengers were about to have the correct fare deducted from their cards. I'd like to think that this sharp practice was instrumental in TfL and the Mayor deciding to abolish OEPs from May 22nd. So incensed am I about this issue that there is a countdown timer on my site heralding their imminent demise. It's almost funny to think that when they're gone there will be a significant number of Oyster users who never even knew they existed!

MikeWh recently obtained evidence which demonstrated that a passenger accused of travelling without an invalid "Oyster" 'ticket' was, in fact, travelling lawfully, and FCC withdrew the threat of Proceedings. But he only obtained those complex details from TfL after a FoI request!

No. There is not enough publicity.

And within three days of dropping the case FCC have persuaded TfL to change the programming of the validators that caused the problem at Finsbury Park. No one is telling people who might be affected by this change though.

Better still would be for TOCs to accept Oyster PAYG at more stations outside Greater London. At least to the first 'big' station (e.g. Woking, Reading, Stevenage).

The Mayor hinted after the recent rail summit that he wants to see acceptance extended into the shires, so hopefully some of this might become reality.

But is it clear enough they're not. It is valid on some NR beyond zone 6, and other NR have Oyster looking smart ticketing, but not Oyster.

Not just 'other NR' but SWT. In fact it is that other smart ticketing which has caused so many problems with Oyster in the SWT area, because the systems were not compatible. To be honest, each of those travellers must have a reasonable case for contesting their PFs because the mixture of systems on SWT must be confusing.

That was just some info given out to make it seem like it was the railways fault. He was actually travelling to Slough which is outside zone 6 so even if the railways had accepted Oyster at that time he would still have been liable for a PF.

And to be fair to FGW, they did join the Oyster system before the South London TOCs were dragged kicking and screaming to the table last year.

 

[Mike395]

No, there's not enough publicity I agree.

One way of solving the problem might be to put a message (even alternating with another message/train info) on every platform electronic screen informing people of the last station on that line to which Oyster can be used for the next service departing from that platform. Surely not that expensive to implement and more noticeable than leaflets/posters that might just be disregarded by passengers?

 

[swt_passenger]

There'll always have to be a boundary somewhere, whatever extensions they make to Oyster. I don't know what the answer is for stations just past Surbiton or wherever - but Oyster is just the medium - the same problem would have arisen with a paper (inboundary) travelcard wouldn't it?

I've seen people acting surprised when their Oyster PAYG failed to let them out at Southampton - and that was about two years ago.

 

[amcluesent]

The lack of clarity on Oyster is like the speed scameras where they hide the 30mph sign behind a tree and rake in £60s. The RPIs are working the same sort of wheeze for £20s, "you should have known" etc. etc.

 

[Wildrover]

I use a mixture of PAYG and short term travel cards. I waited 20 minutes whilst a prospective passanger purchased an off peak saver London to KirKcaldy, then I asked for an extension ticket from beyond zone 3 to the boundary where my card was valid, I was sold a paper ticket, touched in and yes I was charged twice, because neither I nor the ticket seller understood the system. TOC and TFL are out for revenue maximisation and will try anything on - at the expense of the traveller, and complexity and confusion reign. Watch out for cloning of oyster application forms leading to fraud, which only some in TfL will acknowledge.

 

[causton]

Lots of FCC stations outside the zones have large posters in them stating "Oyster PAYG is NOT valid at this station" - hopefully people won't need to know that as they read the sign, and presumably the sign is to remind them a future time they travel to/from that station.

 

[barrykas]

How much more do people need their hands held? Both the TfL "Oyster Rail Services" and National Rail "London Connections" maps show the extent of the Travelcard Zonal area and PAYG boundary.

Most stations tend to have a poster detailing Oyster validity as well, and some trains (e.g. the refurbished 317s on the West Anglia route) include the boundaries on their PIS.

Having said that, the bus routes accepting Oyster outside the zones create several anomalies, such as being able to get to Denham on the 331 (Uxbridge - Ruislip) and being able to top up your Oyster in the convenience store near the railway station...but not being able to use your Oyster (or an "in-boundary" Travelcard) to go into Marylebone, as the boundary is one stop nearer London, at West Ruislip. (Of course, had the Central Line extension to Denham gone ahead, that probably wouldn't be an issue).

Cheers,

Barry

 

[transmanche]

How much more do people need their hands held?

Well, I think you've given some very good examples of precisely why people do need "their hands held" a bit more, in the form of better information.

 

[Wildrover]

In my own case it would seem both the passanger ( me ) and the ticket seller needed < hand holding> The difference with Oyster is that you put on credit in advance, and it is far from clear what amounts are being taken from the account or if the use of the card is within the terms and conditions of use of the card and system. Further if you are outwith the terms then penalties apply. given these circumstances, I consider that those travelling with PAYG and in credit or with automatic top up, given the complexity of the system should be assumed to be honest if confused, at least on any initial three challenges in a year. maybe the software writers will add in this protection.

 

[jopsuk]

NXEA have, at least on the WA route, added messages about validity to the on-train PIS displays (and possibly announcements- though there seem to be few 317s with announcements/PA that actually work)

 

[bakerstreet]

How much more do people need their hands held?

I suppose that is the nub of my original question.

If you are part of a TOC and immersed in the rules of Oyster you might be clear in your own mind that it was relatively simple to understand and when people make errors you think: 'It's not us it's them'.

But if a TOC sees many many PFs for misuse / confusion of Oyster doesn't someone somewhere at some stage think actually perhaps 'It's not them it's us'

 

[Mojo]

I am not so sure about the relation to using Oyster cards out of zones and being caught speeding. A road vehicle operator has to pass tests to prove they understand what the signs mean and rules are when it comes to driving at the maximum speed along a road. Similarly speed limits are set for the reason of safety, not to raise money.

In contrast, there is no such test when applying for or using an Oyster card; customers are expected to understand the terms and conditions and abide by them; there is no chance of injury or damage to property through misuse of an Oyster card(!) and the purpose of it is to raise revenue rather than prevent any such incident.

As to whether there should be more publicity? Probably, yes, but how do you go about doing that? How many posters and announcements can you put out to say that it's not valid, and there's always the chance someone will miss it?

 

[island]

Two people I know were on an SET train from Lewisham to Greenhithe wanting to go by Oyster when luckily one of them texted me mentioning it, and I casually texted back "I hope you have a paper ticket". They quickly got off (somewhere around Albany Park) and played with a TVM for a while before deciding they couldn't figure it out, proceeded to double back to Lewisham (without touching out and back in) and got hit with a £12 H2H charge :roll:

 

[londonbridge]

Another potential source of confusion which has been discussed here before is Epsom. Given that Tattenham Corner,Epsom Downs and Ewell (both East and West) are all in zone 6 someone unfamiliar with the system could be forgiven for assuming that Oyster was also valid at Epsom.

 

[RJ]

How much more do people need their hands held? Both the TfL "Oyster Rail Services" and National Rail "London Connections" maps show the extent of the Travelcard Zonal area and PAYG boundary.

Indeed. There are also leaflets available, or the TfL website, or posters on stations etc. In fact it's written on every single Oyster card precisely where more information and the conditions of use can be found. The real problem is people's decision to ignore all of this - not that the information isn't there.

 

[Stigy]

Did they deserve a PF? well they won't do it again.

Sounds like the PF worked as it was supposed to. A deterant. Also bear in mind that the TOC only get a percentage of the total value of the PF, so £100 in this case, was probably much less.

I don't think the message is clear enough about Oyster Cards, although, as somebody whom has never used one, I certainly would make sure I knew exactly where I could and couldn't use it before I travelled.

 

[jon0844]

Lots of FCC stations outside the zones have large posters in them stating "Oyster PAYG is NOT valid at this station" - hopefully people won't need to know that as they read the sign, and presumably the sign is to remind them a future time they travel to/from that station.

Yes, but by the time you read that you're going to be hit with a £20 PF - as was the case with a woman this morning (0935) at Potters Bar - which isn't always staffed at that time. She was very (un)lucky to find staff there!

She was told she should have checked before travelling, but it's crazy that Potters Bar isn't in Zone 6 for the train, but is for the buses outside! Well, they're accepted anyway but that could still cause confusion.

I think that people using Oyster beyond the zones, assuming it will work to the last station on the line, should check what stations are covered, but I do also think that;

a) The departure boards should make it clear what the end station is that Oyster will work - as should route maps.
b) The onboard PIS should warn that you are reaching the last station where Oyster PAYG can be used (or indeed, your Oyster TC) - some TOCs do this already, like National Express and SouthEastern.
c) People who get caught the first time should have their details taken and have this on record, then charged the difference for that occasion (again, with the usual option of prosecuting if someone arrived at an ungated station and didn't seek to pay at the ticket office if they couldn't find a point to touch out). If caught again, there's no excuse - off to court or chopping their head off (whichever is easier!).

I say this as I don't regard someone going a station outside Z6 as being the same type of 'offender' as someone without a valid ticket, or no ticket at all. But, once they've been told... game over!

Part of my reasoning is that I got my Oyster card years ago, and back then the info you received was minimal at best. It didn't spell out the T&Cs that apply now, or explain about these extension things that I have never seen or used. Even though you can register your name and address, I've never had an updated list of conditions in the post, or by email. As such, it would be hard to argue that someone who has been using Oyster for some time is going to know about all the pitfalls. A simple leaflet sent to the Oyster holder explaining the rules for use on National Rail would probably suffice. Perhaps those who get an Oyster today ARE given all the facts?

The industry should consider that for key commuter services, such as the inner-suburban trains to Moorgate on FCC, Oyster should be extended to WGC and Hertford North (possibly even Letchworth and Stevenage) - i.e. where the train ends on a route that has a large percentage of the route with PAYG availability. WGC and Hertford should probably become part of the zonal system, up to Z9, anyway.

Longer term, perhaps even Peterborough and King's Lynn should allow Oyster usage (I know - it would mean staffing stations for longer!). Sure, you'd be charged quite a bit, but think how much more flexible it would be to just turn up and travel with your smartcard, and then if you travel back later you're automatically charged the return rate (such as an extra 10 or 20p) depending on when you travel. It means always being charged the right amount for the journey you actually do.

I understand why TOCs aren't so keen on this system rolling out, given it really needs gated stations with a staff presence.

 

[Capybara]

Indeed. There are also leaflets available, or the TfL website, or posters on stations etc. In fact it's written on every single Oyster card precisely where more information and the conditions of use can be found. The real problem is people's decision to ignore all of this - not that the information isn't there.

And it's not as if the zone maps are new or anything. They were around for years before Oyster came on the scene. And on the original question, I use SWT quite a lot and guards regularly make an announcement on the approach to Surbiton that it is the last stop where Oyster cards can be used. But I suppose if you are on a first stop Woking it's a different matter ....

 

[jon0844]

It does sound like things vary by TOC. FCC do have posters showing Oyster validity, but they can be in slightly less obvious places, just like the yellow PF posters that can be missed completely depending on how you enter a station.

 

[Deerfold]

And it's not as if the zone maps are new or anything. They were around for years before Oyster came on the scene. And on the original question, I use SWT quite a lot and guards regularly make an announcement on the approach to Surbiton that it is the last stop where Oyster cards can be used. But I suppose if you are on a first stop Woking it's a different matter ....

There are a number of stations outside the Zones which take Oyster now...so the boundaries aren't the same as for travelcards - on the lines to
Chafford Hundred,
Grays,
Ockendon and
Purfleet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

She was told she should have checked before travelling, but it's crazy that Potters Bar isn't in Zone 6 for the train, but is for the buses outside! Well, they're accepted anyway but that could still cause confusion.

Or just to be more confusing, some buses - the 84 (depending where you're going!), 298 and 313.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are a number of stations outside the Zones which take Oyster now...so the boundaries aren't the same as for travelcards - on the lines to
Chafford Hundred,
Grays,
Ockendon and
Purfleet.

That's why the London Connections map was altered, and has a separate red lined 'Oyster boundary' clearly marked now, as well as the zones.

The Oyster area is shown on both the notice board versions and the foldup pocket maps.

But as I said earlier, the basic problem of people straying over boundaries didn't just appear with Oyster, it already happened with travelcards, and another boundary people have to deal with is that of the Network Card area. I assume there are similar issues in the north with the various PTE concessions - there's always going to be someone somewhere who wants to go just a little bit further than he should...

 

[londonbridge]

Redhill is another one. You can use Oyster on the 405 bus all the way down there,but you can't use it on the train to come back into London.

As to Surbiton,when I worked in Kingston depending on what time I arrived at CJ and how the trains were running some mornings I would get the Kingston train and others I would get the 0800 Alton service,first stop Surbiton,and then walk round or hop a bus. There was one particular guard on the Alton train who would always ask anyone with an Oyster if they only going to Surbiton.

 

[jon0844]

Things can't be helped when Old Street still has a 2008 map on the FCC platforms! Quite a lot has changed since then.

Route maps vary all over the place, including some that still don't show the Thameslink route evening/weekend shutdowns, and still show trains going to Gillingham when I believe there are currently zero timetabled trains going to/from there on the FCC/SET shared service.

Besides passengers being done for not checking, what happens to the TOCs that don't provide up to date information that might be checked by the passengers who get done?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Update 2120: Went home via King's Cross tonight, and came to station via the new ticket hall exit (near 9-11). Approaching the gates, no signs at all. Going through, there's a single yellow warning poster of it being a PF zone by platform 10.

Then, part way down platform 9, is a London Connections map that has the dotted red line to denote the area covered by Oyster PAYG.

No route maps with the zones marked out and no posters to say where Oyster cards can be used to.

I doubt there's much more information for platforms 0-8.