Oyster Extension Permits (OEPs) scrapped from May 2011

[jon0844]

Goodbye OEPs. Something I didn't know about for ages, didn't understand when I did and never got to use before it was axed!

 

[MikeWh]

Academic now, but this was always a bit of an edge case, because if travelling from zone 5 to zone 1 with a zone 2-4 travelcard without touching in, the last leg into zone 1 must have been travel starting inside your zones and going out of them into zone 1?

I don't think any TOC or TFL instructions ever adequately covered what was effectively a three stage PAYG/TC/PAYG combination; fortunately it's no longer relevant...

Ah, but it is still relevant actually. If you failed to touch in at the start in zone 5, or indeed within your zones, then tried to touch out at the end in zone 1 you would get an unresolved journey charge. The system will not assume that no touch in means you started within your zones. Now that mixed travel is the same on all rail modes the instructions are crystal clear - you must touch in at the start and touch out at the end or you may not be charged the correct fare.

Also, the instructions for OEPs was quite clear on the TfL website. You only needed to set one before starting a journey within your zones. The only reason for them was to cause a deduction where one wouldn't normally be made. In the case of a PAYG/TC/PAYG journey you would get a deduction at the start because it was outside your zones.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah, but it is still relevant actually.

Sorry for the confusion, I just meant the OEP itself was no longer relevant, so I've taken the liberty of correcting my post.

 

[island]

As a footnote, it seems that TVMs have been set to require an absurdly high amount of credit to set an OEP. This could be a bit tiresome in the event someone hasn't heard of the end of OEPs and tops up a lot in an abortive attempt to be able to set one.

 

[ainsworth74]

Apologies for the off topic but is anyone else still reading the thread title as OAP? Because every time this thread appears I think "What!? Scrapping OAPs!?"

 

[yorkie]

Apologies for the off topic but is anyone else still reading the thread title as OAP? Because every time this thread appears I think "What!? Scrapping OAPs!?"

I have changed the title, hopefully the new title will avoid confusion!

 

[MikeWh]

As a footnote, it seems that TVMs have been set to require an absurdly high amount of credit to set an OEP. This could be a bit tiresome in the event someone hasn't heard of the end of OEPs and tops up a lot in an abortive attempt to be able to set one.

Ah but haven't you seen ... those same TOCs who did diddly squat to publicise the requirement to set OEPs have now miraculously found room for a poster at every station telling everyone that they are no longer required. You can only wonder at the confusion amongst those who had never heard of them in the first place!

If it wasn't for the unfortunate victims of SET the currrent situation would be laughable.

 

[penaltyfines]

The system will not assume that no touch in means you started within your zones.

That can't be right... what if you start with a paper ticket say Twyford-BZ6, have a Zones 3/4/5/6 travelcard on Oyster, and travel Twyford to Paddington?

If touching out at Paddington results in a maximum cash fare I would be inclined to refuse to touch out until they resolve the bug...?

 

[MikeWh]

That can't be right... what if you start with a paper ticket say Twyford-BZ6, have a Zones 3/4/5/6 travelcard on Oyster, and travel Twyford to Paddington?

If touching out at Paddington results in a maximum cash fare I would be inclined to refuse to touch out until they resolve the bug...?

How does the system know you haven't started at Chesham, roamed about a little and ended up at Paddington? I know it's unlikely, but that is why you have to touch in and out whenever you travel beyond the zones covered by your travelcard.

 

[island]

That can't be right... what if you start with a paper ticket say Twyford-BZ6, have a Zones 3/4/5/6 travelcard on Oyster, and travel Twyford to Paddington?

If touching out at Paddington results in a maximum cash fare I would be inclined to refuse to touch out until they resolve the bug...?

Many of the FGW ticket gates at Paddington don't accept Oyster cards, but in the event that you found one, then yes it would be a maximum cash fare.

I can only assume this is because boundary zone tickets are intended in the first place for people who hold travelcards including zone 1.

 

[MikeWh]

I can only assume this is because boundary zone tickets are intended in the first place for people who hold travelcards including zone 1.

Or that most people would make journeys that either start or end within their zones as that would usually include both their home and place of work.

That can't be right... what if you start with a paper ticket say Twyford-BZ6, have a Zones 3/4/5/6 travelcard on Oyster, and travel Twyford to Paddington?

And the official advice here would be to get out at Ealing Broadway and touch in. If you're lucky you'll get back on the same train, or there's a Heathrow Connect one following shortly afterwards.

 

[penaltyfines]

That seems a pretty good reason to just not touch out at all if it's going to over charge you!

There shouldn't be any need to get off a train for the purposes of Oyster, terrible idea... they should just fix the bug!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Many of the FGW ticket gates at Paddington don't accept Oyster cards, but in the event that you found one, then yes it would be a maximum cash fare.

I can only assume this is because boundary zone tickets are intended in the first place for people who hold travelcards including zone 1.

All the local services platforms have Oyster gates, it's only 2-5 that don't as 99% of them are high-speed services and I imagine most people dont take advantage of boundary tickets - although there are stand-alone oyster readers in the vicinity for those compulsive enough to touch in/out on a travelcard!

 

[island]

All the local services platforms have Oyster gates, it's only 2-5 that don't as 99% of them are high-speed services and I imagine most people dont take advantage of boundary tickets - although there are stand-alone oyster readers in the vicinity for those compulsive enough to touch in/out on a travelcard!

Well that's not trivial if you're going to/from Slough/Reading/Worcester/Banbury where you could have a boundary zone ticket that won't operate the barriers!

 

[LexyBoy]

Hang on, if one needs to touch in and out on every journey even with a Travelcard, does that not mean that one will always receive a maximum fare when using Boundary Zone tickets (except by not touching the card at all)?

Or have I missed something?

 

[MikeWh]

That seems a pretty good reason to just not touch out at all if it's going to over charge you!

Fine, then when a RPI asks to check your ticket you'll end up with a penalty fare.

There shouldn't be any need to get off a train for the purposes of Oyster, terrible idea... they should just fix the bug!

You seem fixated by this concept of a bug. Please tell me how the Oyster system can guarantee to know where you've travelled from if you don't touch in and out when you need to pay-as-you-go? Say you live in Harrow and work in Wembley so you have a zone 4-5 Travelcard. One day you visit your friend in Rickmansworth and decide to travel together into Marylebone. What should the Oyster system do if you forget to touch in at Rickmansworth? Should it assume you got on at Harrow? You seem to think it should because otherwise it's a bug. Can you see how it isn't a bug?

Hang on, if one needs to touch in and out on every journey even with a Travelcard, does that not mean that one will always receive a maximum fare when using Boundary Zone tickets (except by not touching the card at all)?

Or have I missed something?

The majority of people using boundary zone tickets with an Oyster travelcard will be starting or ending their journey within the zones covered by their travelcard. In this instance there is no penalty because you can make incomplete journeys within your zones without incurring a maximum journey charge. The specific problem that penaltyfines has raised is where you have a travelcard sandwiched between two pay-as-you-go journeys. Because one end goes outside the Oyster area you get a paper ticket for that. But the Oyster system cannot know that you had a paper ticket to get you into your zones so you need to tell it that the PAYG journey that it needs to charge for did indeed start within your zones.

It is a drawback of the system, but I don't see an easy way around it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hang on, if one needs to touch in and out on every journey even with a Travelcard, does that not mean that one will always receive a maximum fare when using Boundary Zone tickets (except by not touching the card at all)?

Or have I missed something?

I think so. The whole scenario posed earlier was that there was a BZ ticket used to zone 6, then a Zones 3-6 Travelcard, followed by a touch out in Zone 1. That would be expected to cause a max cash fare to be charged on exit.

If the same journey with a BZ ticket followed by an exit within Zones 3-6 had occured, there'd be no problem.

Effectively, the existence of a boundary zone ticket is irrelevant to what happens here, as the Oyster PAYG calculations can never take into account a paper BZ ticket - which is all you can get. So the problem reduces to someone touching out outside their travelcard zones, without touching in - hence a max cash fare.

 

[LexyBoy]

Ah OK, so:
- An unresolved journey with a touch in/out within your zones = no charge
- An unresolved journey with a touch in/out outwith your zones = maximum fare

Right now? :?

 

[MikeWh]

Ah OK, so:
- An unresolved journey with a touch in/out within your zones = no charge
- An unresolved journey with a touch in/out outwith your zones = maximum fare

Right now? :?

Yes, that's correct.

The maximum fare if you have a travelcard stored is a little lower than the usual maximum fare when using PAYG only, but that is the way it works, yes.

 

[LexyBoy]

Thanks. Seems pretty reasonable then.

 

[penaltyfines]

Fine, then when a RPI asks to check your ticket you'll end up with a penalty fare.

I think proof that once you've been overcharged would be sufficient proof to show you have previously attempted to pay the correct fare, but no facilities were available to do so.

The rules aren't that you should touch out, it's that you should make an attempt to pay for travel. If you go to the ticket window after the journey and ask for the pay-as-you-go cost of the last leg to be debited, and they can't do so, then why is the passenger liable for a BUG in the inability to charge the correct amount? In that case I would expect to not pay for the journey if, when offering to pay the correct amount, they are unable to do so.

You seem fixated by this concept of a bug. Please tell me how the Oyster system can guarantee to know where you've travelled from if you don't touch in and out when you need to pay-as-you-go? Say you live in Harrow and work in Wembley so you have a zone 4-5 Travelcard. One day you visit your friend in Rickmansworth and decide to travel together into Marylebone. What should the Oyster system do if you forget to touch in at Rickmansworth? Should it assume you got on at Harrow? You seem to think it should because otherwise it's a bug. Can you see how it isn't a bug?

You seem fixated with the system giving the benefit of the doubt to the TOC. The point of Oyster is that if you touch in and touch out when presented with the opportunity, it will 'work out the correct fare'.

In this case, there are no Oyster readers when you start your journey, so have no opportunity to touch in - the passenger should never be expected to leave the train for the purposes of ticketing alone (to touch in at an intermediate station).

The majority of people using boundary zone tickets with an Oyster travelcard will be starting or ending their journey within the zones covered by their travelcard. In this instance there is no penalty because you can make incomplete journeys within your zones without incurring a maximum journey charge. The specific problem that penaltyfines has raised is where you have a travelcard sandwiched between two pay-as-you-go journeys. Because one end goes outside the Oyster area you get a paper ticket for that. But the Oyster system cannot know that you had a paper ticket to get you into your zones so you need to tell it that the PAYG journey that it needs to charge for did indeed start within your zones.

So it's inconceivable that someone would travel into their travelcard zones with a paper ticket? No - of course not.

The point is Oyster is claiming to offer integrated travel across underground, overground and national rail services. This is a perfectly valid scenario which results in the customer being overcharged - if they are aware of this and do nothing then it's borderline fraud.

If it's advertised that by touching in and out where available will result in the correct fare, then that's what it should do. If that means giving the customer the benefit of the doubt, then so be it.

 

[FGWman]

That can't be right... what if you start with a paper ticket say Twyford-BZ6, have a Zones 3/4/5/6 travelcard on Oyster, and travel Twyford to Paddington?

If touching out at Paddington results in a maximum cash fare I would be inclined to refuse to touch out until they resolve the bug...?

But this is not a bug. If you make any PAYG journey you must touch in and touch out. You will need to get out at the zone 3 boundary station and touch in and then get back on or get the next train and touch out at paddington. And anyway once you pass the zone 3 station you will be liable for a penalty fare.

 

[swt_passenger]

The point is Oyster is claiming to offer integrated travel across underground, overground and national rail services...

But only within the London Zonal area. You seem to want a system that can automatically guess where you should have touched in as you sped through on a non stop service - how the heck could that ever work?

 

[MikeWh]

I think proof that once you've been overcharged would be sufficient proof to show you have previously attempted to pay the correct fare, but no facilities were available to do so.

The rules aren't that you should touch out, it's that you should make an attempt to pay for travel. If you go to the ticket window after the journey and ask for the pay-as-you-go cost of the last leg to be debited, and they can't do so, then why is the passenger liable for a BUG in the inability to charge the correct amount? In that case I would expect to not pay for the journey if, when offering to pay the correct amount, they are unable to do so.

You seem fixated with the system giving the benefit of the doubt to the TOC. The point of Oyster is that if you touch in and touch out when presented with the opportunity, it will 'work out the correct fare'.

In this case, there are no Oyster readers when you start your journey, so have no opportunity to touch in - the passenger should never be expected to leave the train for the purposes of ticketing alone (to touch in at an intermediate station).

You seem to be missing several points here. Most importantly, Oyster is not the only method of payment. If you want to make the journey in one go then you either buy a ticket for the whole journey, or a combination of tickets which, together with your Oyster travelcard, cover the whole journey.

If you choose to use Oyster pay-as-you-go then you are bound by the conditions of it's use. This means that you must touch in and touch out at the ends of the journey you are expecting it to charge for. Crucially, if you do not touch in then it is not a validated permit to travel beyond the zones of it's stored travelcard. You therefore do not have ticket(s) to cover your entire journey and a penalty fare is entirely appropriate, or possibly even prosecution. In this scenario, if you were lucky enough to not be checked before touching out at the gateline, you would actually be better off than receiving a penalty fare.

The point is Oyster is claiming to offer integrated travel across underground, overground and national rail services. This is a perfectly valid scenario which results in the customer being overcharged - if they are aware of this and do nothing then it's borderline fraud.

No, it's not a valid scenario because according to the conditions of use of Oyster you have not validated your card prior to making a PAYG journey.

 

[londonbridge]

Take the following example:

You live in outer London (say somewhere in travelcard zone 4). You work outside of London completely. You have a zones 4-6 travelcard and ticket from Boundary zone 6 to wherever you work.

You go to work,then when you've finished you are going directly into central London for the evening. You can no longer do this without getting off the train somewhere within zones 4-6 and touching your travelcard in because if you don't you'll get a penalty fare when you go to touch out in zone 1,yes?

 

[LexyBoy]

Take the following example:

You live in outer London (say somewhere in travelcard zone 4). You work outside of London completely. You have a zones 4-6 travelcard and ticket from Boundary zone 6 to wherever you work.

You go to work,then when you've finished you are going directly into central London for the evening. You can no longer do this without getting off the train somewhere within zones 4-6 and touching your travelcard in because if you don't you'll get a penalty fare when you go to touch out in zone 1,yes?

You are making a journey from outside the Zones, so cannot use Oyster PAYG without getting out within them, as you say. If you want to make the journey without getting off the train, you will need to buy a paper ticket to cover the portion of your journey not covered by your TC.

 

[Mojo]

Well for a start I'm struggling to imagine why someone in Zone 4 (say Southall) who works just outside (say Slough) would hold a Zone 4-6 Travelcard (£5.70 x 5 + £22.80) instead of a Southall to Slough season (£33.50 7 day).

Assuming they are just doing a day trip to Slough, then it would be cheaper to ignore the fact they hold a Travelcard and buy a ticket all the way from London Terminals. An Off-peak Oyster single Paddington to Southall is £2.50, plus the BZ6-Slough means you might as well buy a ticket all the way.

 

[mattdickinson]

You seem to be missing several points here. Most importantly, Oyster is not the only method of payment. If you want to make the journey in one go then you either buy a ticket for the whole journey, or a combination of tickets which, together with your Oyster travelcard, cover the whole journey.

If you choose to use Oyster pay-as-you-go then you are bound by the conditions of it's use. This means that you must touch in and touch out at the ends of the journey you are expecting it to charge for. Crucially, if you do not touch in then it is not a validated permit to travel beyond the zones of it's stored travelcard. You therefore do not have ticket(s) to cover your entire journey and a penalty fare is entirely appropriate, or possibly even prosecution. In this scenario, if you were lucky enough to not be checked before touching out at the gateline, you would actually be better off than receiving a penalty fare.


No, it's not a valid scenario because according to the conditions of use of Oyster you have not validated your card prior to making a PAYG journey.

Pages 4-18 to 4-20 of http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/scienceresearch/otherresearch/itsooysterinteroperability.pdf

has some interesting discussion on options for extending card usage to long distance services.