Oyster card empire could include Hertfordshire

[Firestarter]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14886629

Oyster card empire could include Hertfordshire

I've learnt talks are under way to extend the Oyster card scheme to train stations in Hertfordshire.

The move could mean commuters will be able to use the Oyster card on First Capital Connect services as far out as St Albans, Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North.

The talks are between the Department for Transport (DfT), First Capital Connect (FCC) and Transport for London (TfL) and they could mean Oyster being introduced next year.

It would mean the creation of a wider Zone 9 and, if FCC joins in, it could spread elsewhere.

Most of the time Oyster means the cheapest single fare and it's quick and convenient. However, a season ticket might still work out cheaper, depending on the pricing.

It certainly shows you that some train companies like Oyster and don't see it as a threat to their revenues.

 

[Aictos]

Yes talks are underway and Oyster could be used by St Albans, Welwyn GC and Hertford North users as early as January but this obviously depends on the talks.

Personally I think it will go live in February/March.

 

[swt_passenger]

I see the BBC chap is assuming they'll use/extend the numbered zones - but it's just as likely there'll be special zones for the FCC routes to allow the existing NR fares to be incorporated - like with 'G for Grays' over in Essex, and of course the existing 'W for Watford Jn'...

 

[bb21]

I see the BBC chap is assuming they'll use/extend the numbered zones - but it's just as likely there'll be special zones for the FCC routes to allow the existing NR fares to be incorporated - like with 'G for Grays' over in Essex, and of course the existing 'W for Watford Jn'...

The complication with numbered Zones 7, 8 and 9 is that the fares will have to be harmonised with the existing zones on the Met line.

Comparing St Albans (SAC) fare to Amersham (AMR) fare (to/from zone 1/London Thameslink), currently the SDS is similar (SAC £5, AMR £7 Cash £6 Oyster Peak), however the Oyster Off-Peak is £3.50 so there is some work to be done should SAC become part of Zone 9. For a return journey with the flow during rush hours, the Oyster fare is actually more expensive at £12, whereas the SDR from SAC is £8.50.

For return journeys, SAC has a CDR offering for £5.25 whereas two Oyster Off-Peak singles will be £7.

Seems that Oyster doesn't always save you money, and one shall be careful what he/she wishes for.

 

[yorkie]

In a sane world they would extend the zones logically (and Watford Jn should be Zone 10) however I fear they will not. With Watford Jn being Zone 'W' this really should be a wake-up call that a piecemeal zonal system is not sensible; what will they call Welwyn if that situation persists?

It may end up being simple from a purely usability point of view (ie, touching in and out and not having to worry about buying the "correct" ticket) but from a fares point of view, and for people wanting to know what their actual charges will be, it will be a nightmare if they continue with their disorganised approach.

They also need to sort Grays out, too.

If done sensibly, and logically, then I welcome it. If done in a haphazard way then I do not.

 

[jopsuk]

Why shouldn't Watford Juction be in zone 7? It's closer to Charing Cross (the generally accepted centre of London) than Watford (Met). But then the zones are very, very distorted the whole way around London- how do they decide where the boundaries of each zone lies?

 

[yorkie]

Due to pricing reasons. If they want WFJ to be expensive, fine, call it Zone 10. stations in the Grays area should be in Zone 9/10/11 (as appropriate) and not all in "G". This would allow genuine simplification and if they kept to this format, more areas could be slotted in these zones without the system becoming ludicrously complex (it's already complex enough!)

 

[swt_passenger]

Due to pricing reasons. If they want WFJ to be expensive, fine, call it Zone 10. stations in the Grays area should be in Zone 9/10/11 (as appropriate) and not all in "G". This would allow genuine simplification and if they kept to this format, more areas could be slotted in these zones without the system becoming ludicrously complex (it's already complex enough!)

I agree with that entirely - and would add that on any given line of route you don't necessarily have to have stations in every zone - in your example you would just show a very thin zone 9 between Watford High St and Watford Jn, with no station in it.

There are plenty of sections of route out in the sticks (ie zones 4,5,6 ish) with three successsive stations in three successive zones - they only look odd because the typical zonal diagram has no real relationship to distance.

Has anyone ever seen a geographically accurate London zonal map?

 

[causton]

Has anyone ever seen a geographically accurate London zonal map?

Ish... here's up to Z2/3...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/London_Underground_Zone_2.png



(And I can't wait to be able to use Oyster cards in Hertfordshire! Although... I'll probably not live here by the time this rolls out!)

 

[Tav77]

Bearing in mind that the closest station to the White Water Canoeing for the Olympics (Waltham Cross - Herts) is only 1 station outside the zones, I was hopeful that the station may be included in Zone 6, especially as the bus station 150 yards away is included in zone 6.

Zone 7 and being able to use an oyster would be handy though

 

[swt_passenger]

Bearing in mind that the closest station to the White Water Canoeing for the Olympics (Waltham Cross - Herts) is only 1 station outside the zones...

All such 'outside London' games tickets come with a free day travelcard included anyway, but it's specially extended to the appropriate station for the venue, so they'd don't need to specifically alter PAYG for the Olympics...

 

[ItchyRsole]

WGC & St Albans already decided upon by all accounts.

Once the Olympics are out of the way I can see this picking up speed rapidly.

Couple of points.

800 ticket office staff lost their jobs on LU due to Oyster, what are the unions doing to either fight this or protect their members who work in ticket offices?

Oyster was introduced for LU yet is now heading for deepest Hertfordshire, where next Luton, Nottingham to hell with it Glasgow! Where does it stop?

Personally I prefer dealing with a human than a machine but that's just a personal choice I understand many others don't.

All zones season tickets from St Albans are approximately £3540 per year & due to rise in January how much will Oyster knock off of this? Can't see FCC doing something to dent their finances from a station that has approx 7 million annual passengers?

 

[NSE]

I agree it's a shame that jobs will be lost (Assuming your facts to be true, which I have no reason to doubt) but that will be handy for me. The oyster system saves queueing up, as queues for ticket machines are always less than the windows. Yes, a human is more handy if it goes wrong, but in all the time I've had my oyster, I've pre-loaded tickets onto it, railcards, daily price caps etc, its never gone wrong (touch wood :P ) The system DOES work, and by reaching out to this distance it will make my journey's to places such as Hatfield from here in Wembley much easier. You can top up on line, you can set limits to auto top up.
I don't like to admit it, but once again the machine really is much handier than the human.

 

[causton]

Any source for this? I can't wait for this to happen, when it happens, if it happens

 

[TEW]

c2c have set a precedent for this, with there acceptance of Oyster as far as Grays. It does seem to make sense to me to extend Oyster just outside London, to the typical commuting areas. It's similar to Zones 7,8 and 9 on the Metropolitan Line and London Overground.

 

[Firestarter]

WGC & St Albans already decided upon by all accounts.

Once the Olympics are out of the way I can see this picking up speed rapidly.

Couple of points.

800 ticket office staff lost their jobs on LU due to Oyster, what are the unions doing to either fight this or protect their members who work in ticket offices?

Oyster was introduced for LU yet is now heading for deepest Hertfordshire, where next Luton, Nottingham to hell with it Glasgow! Where does it stop?

Personally I prefer dealing with a human than a machine but that's just a personal choice I understand many others don't.

All zones season tickets from St Albans are approximately £3540 per year & due to rise in January how much will Oyster knock off of this? Can't see FCC doing something to dent their finances from a station that has approx 7 million annual passengers?

Nothings been made public yet to my knowledge.

True about St Albans its FCC flagship station and biggest money spinner on the TL north side. The money is the reason why EMT don't stop there and probably won't with next franchise holder.

 

[NSE]

Slightly off topic, but maybe not to far, is there anyway I can pay part of a journey on oyster? It's just I have an Oyster (soon to be preloaded 1/6 zones) and travel regularly, so if I'm using Oyster can I use that to get as far as Hadley Wood (ofc maybe soon WGC) and then have a paper ticket from then to either St. Neots/Cambs?
I know this can be done, but ofc not without getting a slow, off at Hadley Wood and then touching out and so on. Also, if it is a travelcard that is pre-loaded on to my Oyster, am I right in thinking that the need to touch in and out is no longer needed (unless I venture into zones I'm not covered for i.e. 7-9/Grays- as it stands now)

 

[Class377/5]

Nothings been made public yet to my knowledge.

True about St Albans its FCC flagship station and biggest money spinner on the TL north side. The money is the reason why EMT don't stop there and probably won't with next franchise holder.

It's being discussed at high level right now. Think what your forgetting it the fact passengers want it big time and that's part of the drive.

As for people complaining about the spread of Oyster, you do realise that a smart card of some description will end up spreading across the network? This is only the first step in that.

As for why EMT don't stop there, your wrong. The diesel intercity trains were withdrawn under the electrification under the idea that the more frequent electric services will be preferred. This was in BR days so your mistaken it's about money.

 

[swt_passenger]

All zones season tickets from St Albans are approximately £3540 per year & due to rise in January how much will Oyster knock off of this? Can't see FCC doing something to dent their finances from a station that has approx 7 million annual passengers?

It won't necessarily knock anything off the current price. That's the whole point of them having 'special' zones outside the basic zone 6 set up, as seen with the earlier extension on c2c.

It is about convenience for passengers leading to less ticketless travel, there was no reduction in fares at all.

Same with Watford Junction of course, the other Oyster station with 'special fares'...

 

[Simon11]

Nothing will be done for Jan, the soonest possible will be May2012, however with the olympics, It could be set back.

Regarding possible cheaper fares.... Not likely!!!!!!

 

[rjhglover]

Would this include Peterborough where First Capital Connect trains terminate despite the station being owned by East Coast?

 

[Simon11]

It would never get that far, unless it was in the franchise contract and we had a national wide smartcard. Long way for that to happen.

Remember it always takes a long time to do things in the railway industry! Lots of things to agree bewteen TOCs, TFL, ATOC...... Another good example is slow progress with mobile ticketing.

Another issue is that there can only be so many zones allowed by the oyster system which limits it use.

 

[exile]

So if we don't go for smart cards because of the effect on jobs - should we go back to hand written tickets as existed before Edmondson invented the pre-printed ticket? That would create a lot of jobs. In fact while we're about it we could uninvent trains and cars and create a lot of jobs for horse and cart operators.

 

[jon0844]

I wrote in another thread that I'd been told Oyster would be introduced before the end of 2011 at Hatfield (well, might be - but the suggestion was it was a high probability). I thought it was odd, and unlikely, and still don't know how they'd charge - but it seems like the staff on the ground were right that FCC are trying to implement it and it may actually happen!

I do wonder how the money is split on a zonal ticket, as there's a big difference in price between:

1. A Hatfield > Hadley Wood ticket and then a Z1-6 ticket. (Falls foul of the rules on a train stopping at Hadley Wood)
2. Hatfield > Z456 and a Z123 Travelcard. (My current combination as it gives me the use of Oyster in London - but I am paying more for this benefit, despite the journey being identical)
3. Hatfield > Z1-6 Travelcard. The cheapest option.

There's also another cheaper option, London Terminals, but that's not a like-for-like comparison for my above point.

So, given the three different prices, I wonder how the revenue is split and shared with FCC for all three.

Given every Oyster can be touched in/out easily (even if season ticket holders don't have to), I suspect that one day the way revenue is split won't just be done on a formula, but based on actual usage. Given how busy WGC, St Albans (and Hatfield) are, they may well stand to make more money than they do now.

I am sure there's a financial incentive in there somewhere.

I'm looking forward to this as from next year I'll no longer have an annual season and will be paying daily, so PAYG from Hatfield would be awesome.

 

[Aictos]

Would this include Peterborough where First Capital Connect trains terminate despite the station being owned by East Coast?

Nope, Oyster is only intended to go as far as Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North due to passenger demand.

Nothing will be done for Jan, the soonest possible will be May2012, however with the olympics, It could be set back.

Regarding possible cheaper fares.... Not likely!!!!!!

I disagree, the TVMs are already Oyster ready (the option is just currently greyed out), the ATGs (Gatelines just need a update to start accepting Oyster which can be done overnight) and the Validators which passengers will use to swipe in and out just need to be installed in reasonable locations.

It's only September now and seeing as the idea is to have this operational before the Olympics, I fail to see why it could be set back, there's no reason why it couldn't all go live in April 2012 or even earlier if the powers to be really wanted to.

 

[Class377/5]

Nope, Oyster is only intended to go as far as Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North due to passenger demand.

I disagree, the TVMs are already Oyster ready (the option is just currently greyed out), the ATGs (Gatelines just need a update to start accepting Oyster which can be done overnight) and the Validators which passengers will use to swipe in and out just need to be installed in reasonable locations.

It's only September now and seeing as the idea is to have this operational before the Olympics, I fail to see why it could be set back, there's no reason why it couldn't all go live in April 2012 or even earlier if the powers to be really wanted to.

what you haven't accounted for is Oyster isn't ready for this. Adding in one station means you have to programme timing and fares to every station already in the system. Don't expect it before 2013 as they aren't going to mess with the Oyster database with the Olmypics so close.

 

[jon0844]

I have to hope the Oyster system isn't so badly designed that it would take two years to add in a few more stations and the times allowed to travel between zones!

 

[yorkie]

800 ticket office staff lost their jobs on LU due to Oyster

Hmm, I think that's a simplistic point of view.

Oyster was introduced for LU yet is now heading for deepest Hertfordshire, where next Luton, Nottingham to hell with it Glasgow! Where does it stop?

I'm not sure, but in general, the further the better, providing - as I said earlier - it is done in the right way. If this is done, it'll be for our benefit.

However if it's bodged it could cause serious problems.

Personally I prefer dealing with a human than a machine but that's just a personal choice I understand many others don't.

I like being able to use odd routes on Oyster without anyone complaining about the routeing!

All zones season tickets from St Albans are approximately £3540 per year & due to rise in January how much will Oyster knock off of this?

£0 probably.

Can't see FCC doing something to dent their finances from a station that has approx 7 million annual passengers?

Is that a question? If so, no I can't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So if we don't go for smart cards because of the effect on jobs - should we go back to hand written tickets as existed before Edmondson invented the pre-printed ticket?

Shh! don't give them ideas!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The money is the reason why EMT don't stop there and probably won't with next franchise holder.

I'm not sure what you mean; can you clarify?

Also, who do you think decides whether EMT call there or not? (hint: the correct answer is a 3-letter acronym.... though some people add an extra letter, which would not justified in this case though )

 

[jon0844]

FCC operates a number of fast services to St Albans, so if EMT called there too it wouldn't really achieve anything - except reduce the FCC services/mess up paths.

What's more, people on an EMT train probably don't want to stop so soon on a much longer journey.

 

[Class377/5]

I have to hope the Oyster system isn't so badly designed that it would take two years to add in a few more stations and the times allowed to travel between zones!

No, there is no way they are going to mess with Oyster in an Olympic year as I said. Remember when that upgrade meant they lost the Oyster system for a day or so? No way are they going to try anything with the system until after it's in.

Also note that you have to have a period of testing. Months before Oyster went live they did intensive testing of the card readers, so you have to allow for that as well.

As for two years, well 2013 isn't that long away really, 15 months.