Oxshott accident

[GearJammer]

Note they are talking about risk assessments for all these bridges, yet I think more to the point is where are all the risk assessments for all these lorries?

Well if trucks and there drivers have to have risk assesments then surely everyone who drives a motor vehicle on the road needs to have one?

 

[boing_uk]

Well if trucks and there drivers have to have risk assesments then surely everyone who drives a motor vehicle on the road needs to have one?

Given the number of people killed on the roads despite best engineering efforts, there is a good case for it. If everyones driving and if every road accident was fully investigated to the degree rail driving and accidents are, few people would have driving licenses.

 

[tubeprune]

Why is it taking so long to re-open the line? The RAIB & HSE haven't mentioned it so I suppose it's been declared a Scene of Crime! Is Plod stamping all over it? Oh dear.

 

[GB]

Taking so long? Are you kidding?

Its been little over 24hrs since the start and theres investigations, rerailing and infrastructure to fix.

 

[TDK]

There is a speed limit change from 40 to 30 about 300 feet before the bridge to the west and the road then narrows, but an awful lot of people ignore it this just keep on going at 40 or more when going down the incline to the bridge.

Therefore coming from the west (which I think this cement mixer was?) you can get caught out on the bend as it isn’t designed for 40+ mph and the lane is not that wide, plus there is the bridge wall on the side and not to mention the station entrance on the other side which is a tight bend so people often take it very wide. You see a lot of vehicles coming the the west that end up a few feet into the wrong lane for this reason and sometimes have to swerve back into their lane. Also there are traffic lights to the east and often cars have to queue on the bridge as a result, speeding into the area just means trouble!

If you are a large lorry and there is another lorry on the bridge or someone is turning out of the station road (into your lane or the other lane) you could easilly be in some trouble unless you are going slow as there really isn’t much space on left hand side if you are heading east, as the footpath is on the other lane.

That is what I would suspect happened assuming no mechanical error, went round the (semi blind) bend too fast, maybe on the wrong side of the lane slightly coming out of the slight bend, or meet someone just pulled out of the station road to go east and still accelerating, cement mixer driver had to swerve, back end of the mixer kept on going due to weight, and loss of control as a result.

Why dopeople always surmise what has happened, why don't you wait for the investigation reports instead of guessing, the driver may not be at fault, not speeding and may be injured or dead for all you know. My idea is that some scrote threw a firework at the driver and distracted him (sarcasm)

 

[Dolive22]

From what I heard the driver was blocked by traffic on the bridge and tried to turn and reverse back off it and went through the side. It would have to be a pretty strong wall to stop a cement mixer however (20-25 tons).

There is at least one firm that promises to stop full size trucks (44 ton) with bollards (more accuratelly 1 bollard) and I have seen video proof, although I doubt it was a loaded truck. However they are (I believe) pretty pricey, thicker then your leg and of course are sunk deep in to concrete sitting in the ground. Whether it is possible with a bridge I don't know but it would be very hard. It's even possible that if the cement mixer had met one of those bollards it would have gone end over end, considering it has however many tonnes of liquid that would rush to the front because it is still moving at whatever the truck was doing.

I have a technical/safety question. Would it be better for the cement mixer to have landed on empty track? Given that trains don't have to be able to stop in the distance that can be seen to be clear.

 

[deltic1989]

Why dopeople always surmise what has happened, why don't you wait for the investigation reports instead of guessing, the driver may not be at fault, not speeding and may be injured or dead for all you know. My idea is that some scrote threw a firework at the driver and distracted him (sarcasm)

With that I would say that within the meaning of an open forum people like to give opinions and theories into why things like this happen, thats what TDK is doing. I agree that he may not be 100% correct, and until the official report comes out all we can do is guess, but the theory is a good one, and this is his opinion. After all this is what forums are all about is to discuss and share opinions about a subject we all have a common interest in.

 

[Metroland]

I have a technical/safety question. Would it be better for the cement mixer to have landed on empty track? Given that trains don't have to be able to stop in the distance that can be seen to be clear.

Given that the train probably calls at the station on the other side of the bridge, if the truck had fallen off before it arrived then it would probably be able to stop. If it had fallen off say 5 mins before, then someone may have been able to dial 999, the operator would have been able to call railway control and get it stopped.

 

[Dolive22]

Would a train braking for the station have been able to stop? To kill the driver it doesn't have to be going very fast as he and a relatively small amount of steel would be sandwiched between 20+ tonnes of steel and (wet) concrete and 8 carriages of train.

Incidentally, if I see a bridge strike by an occupied vehicle, should I call 999 or the number on the bridge signs first? 999 seems like a no brainer, but presumably there is a reason why the signs say 'ring ...' instead of 'dial 999, ask for police and tell the operator there has been a bridge strike at xxyy', especially since if my phone is out of credit, or doesn't have coverage for my network, or is a payphone I can't call the number on the sign. Obviously you need fire and rescue and an ambulance pretty fast after a car crash, especially with a bridge parapet, but an 8 car EMU to the head makes it academic.

 

[GB]

Dial the number on the bridge first...even if there are obvious injuries as this puts you through to Network Rail control saving valuable minutes than if you were to dial 999 first.

 

[455/8]

I have a technical/safety question. Would it be better for the cement mixer to have landed on empty track? Given that trains don't have to be able to stop in the distance that can be seen to be clear.

Depends really I don't think any body can say for sure, I live in the area and I work the New line at least once a week in either direction and a few things were going through my mind when i heard about it but if the lorry didn't hit a train and instead had fallen on the track then it would have hit the juice rail so the driver proberbly wouldn't have survived, if a train was approaching the station on the up line it would stop at the station and the driver would have seen it and then got an isolation and stopped trains running. if however it happened when a train was approaching from the down line the driver of the train may have seen the accident but still hit either a part of the bridge or the lorry due to not been able to stop in time or worse case there could have been an up or down pompey service that would have been travelling at line speed of 60mph and I very much doubt that would have stopped in time if that was one of the first trains through as they don't stop at Oxshott station.

Alan

 

[Matt Taylor]

Incidentally, if I see a bridge strike by an occupied vehicle, should I call 999 or the number on the bridge signs first? 999 seems like a no brainer, but presumably there is a reason why the signs say 'ring ...' instead of 'dial 999, ask for police and tell the operator there has been a bridge strike at xxyy', especially since if my phone is out of credit, or doesn't have coverage for my network, or is a payphone I can't call the number on the sign. Obviously you need fire and rescue and an ambulance pretty fast after a car crash, especially with a bridge parapet, but an 8 car EMU to the head makes it academic.

If we see someone frying on the juice rail we are under instruction to call the signal box first as they will then contact the emergency services. I imagine a similar procedure would be in place for other incidents.

 

[Dolive22]

I actually had in my mind a particular bridge carrying the railway over the highway, I suppose because it is on a fast stretch in the middle of knowhere. Does it change the advice? I was balancing first aid, 999 and the railway. I have no intention of going trackside ever, under any circumstances whatever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
455/8, I didn't realise it was electrified, we only have OHLE in my neck of the woods so I didn't see anything over the line and assumed.

 

[GB]

Does it change the advice?

Not really. I apprieciate for most members of public dialing 999 would be the obvious first choice but your priority should always be to protect the line.

A bad situation will be a whole lot worse if the bridge strike as even slightly knocked the track out of alignment and you have a train headed your way at speed.

 

[GearJammer]

Given the number of people killed on the roads despite best engineering efforts, there is a good case for it. If everyones driving and if every road accident was fully investigated to the degree rail driving and accidents are, few people would have driving licenses.

They do..... its called a driving test (said with tounge firmly placed in cheek)

See what you mean tho!

 

[38Cto15E]

Was there a possability that the Mixer lorry could have landed on the 3rd rail and one of the normal rails causing a short circuit and making the whole cement mixer 'Live' ?
If so the driver must have been very fortunate not to be electrocuted.

 

[jrhilton]

Was there a possability that the Mixer lorry could have landed on the 3rd rail and one of the normal rails causing a short circuit and making the whole cement mixer 'Live' ?
If so the driver must have been very fortunate not to be electrocuted.

Yes, but the breaker for the 3rd rail trips in a matter of milliseconds (c15ms for a fault near to the station and up to c100ms for a distant fault), but it would still make a big bang on the track when touching.

The metal in a car cabin/truck and train for that matter would be like a Faraday Cage when it touched the 3rd rail. This is similar to what happens when lightning strikes a car. As long as the driver didn't touch an earth himself before the line tripped he would not have been electrocuted. Things can get hot so burns are a possibility if you touch where it shorted straight away. It will soon cool down though.

 

[142094]

I'm sure I read on BBC News today that the bridge had given way and that is why the lorry had landed onto the unit. So this could throw up a whole new load of questions on bridge inspections.

 

[TDK]

I'm sure I read on BBC News today that the bridge had given way and that is why the lorry had landed onto the unit. So this could throw up a whole new load of questions on bridge inspections.

Looking at photos of the accident scene there doesn't seem to be enough debris for the bridge to have collapsed,don't believe the media reports they always beef it upfor a story

 

[GB]

Other than a 12m section of parapet missing (when the lorry crashed through)the bridge is fully intact. Not sure how the BBC can say it had "given way"?

Normal service is expected for tommorow.

 

[Metroland]

Indeed, the side has gone.

Police are appealing for any witnesses to the accident to come and forward and want to speak to anyone who saw the lorry before the accident.

Window fitter George Palmer, 16, was with his friend Elliott Walker, 27, on his way back from work and followed the mixer west along the A244 from Leatherhead.

He said: "We followed him off the motorway. He scraped the brick wall and tried to correct it but he didn't want to go into the on-coming traffic.

"He clipped the wall, then fell down and the weight of the cement mixer pulled the vehicle down.

"It was the back end which went first.

"It was like something out of a movie. I couldn't believe it.

"We ran out of the van and debris was everywhere.

"We could see him hanging out of the cabin but we didn't want to look."

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...ses_to_Oxshott_train_crash_with_cement_mixer/


I doubt you could make most bridges strong enough to stop heavy vehicles colliding with them breaching the walls.

 

[142094]

Other than a 12m section of parapet missing (when the lorry crashed through)the bridge is fully intact. Not sure how the BBC can say it had "given way"?

Normal service is expected for tommorow.

Seems that the BBC have updated the page since I saw it this morning.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Why is it taking so long to re-open the line? The RAIB & HSE haven't mentioned it so I suppose it's been declared a Scene of Crime! Is Plod stamping all over it? Oh dear.

Because once upon a time clearing the main line was a priority and lines were re-opened as fast as possible after any incident - witness the Harrow and Wealdstone rail crash of 1954 and (relatively) more recently the Clapham rail crash. Nowadays (rightly or wrongly) any incident goes on for ever.

 

[boing_uk]

I doubt you could make most bridges strong enough to stop heavy vehicles colliding with them breaching the walls.

In this instance, a normal bridge parapet to current standards would have prevented this incident. But retrofitting a new parapet edge beam of the required strength on to the structure for the guardrails would be, I should imagine, quite difficult but not impossible to do.

 

[Donny Dave]

Just been looking at WNXX, and saw this link hock:

 

[Metroland]

Once again, along with Grayrigg, Great Heck and Colwich is shows the excellent strength and design of modern rolling stock.

 

[jrhilton]

Some more photos here too: http://www.highlevelphotography.co.uk/nggallery/page-302/album-1/gallery-17/

 

[Stigy]

Given that the train probably calls at the station on the other side of the bridge, if the truck had fallen off before it arrived then it would probably be able to stop. If it had fallen off say 5 mins before, then someone may have been able to dial 999, the operator would have been able to call railway control and get it stopped.

I would imagine there'd be more chance of the lorry driver dying if the train wasn't there to cusion the blow....fate? What are the chances?

 

[GB]

I would imagine there'd be more chance of the lorry driver dying if the train wasn't there to cusion the blow....fate? What are the chances?

I agree.

 

[HST Power]

They say it was lucky that the train was going TO Waterloo from Guildford. It if had been going from Waterloo, it would've been packed, and there could've potentially been a lot more serious injury.

I want to know how the lorry driver managed to go through the bridge!