Oxford - Manchester Piccadilly, Any Permitted

[bnm]

The fares for this flow offer up ANY PERMITTED, priced by CrossCountry which are considerably cheaper than +LONDON, priced by Virgin.

However, Oxford to Manchester Piccadilly via London is a permitted route, so is it allowed, therefore to buy the ANY PERMITTED Anytime Return (SOR) at £122, instead of the eye-wateringly priced +LONDON SOR at £329?

If it is allowed, and I can't see any reason why not, then why is there a Virgin priced +LONDON set so much higher than the ANY PERMITTED?

 

[tony_mac]

it's the same for Reading to Manchester.
All other routes to the North West, that I could find, say route Banbury - I think they obviously made a mistake when updating the routes.

There is a part of the routeing guide which implies that this wouldn't be allowed via London, but other parts that say it would. I think that 'Any Permitted' should actually mean any of the permitted routes.

Maybe you could try it and let us know how you get on?
It probably won't be accepted on the underground, though, and that may not be an argument that is worth having!

 

[bnm]

I can sort of understand the Underground bit as there would be no Maltese Cross on the ticket. Although the Routeing Guide instruction page does cover that:

The via London, Maltese Cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket
may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket
specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to
use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the
Routeing Guide.
In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the
Manual will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese
cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via
London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel
via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

But for the sake of avoiding hassles with TfL staff, who would probably just look at me blankly if I started quoted the National Rail Routeing Guide, I'll just use my Oyster - only £3.60 for the two single trips.

I may indeed be trying this route/fare combination soon, starting short at Reading. I get to travel on decent rolling stock with somewhere I can purchase refreshments when I want them.

I'll let you know how I get on - I'm most worried about the manual gateline at Euston - I've heard some horror stories about them! Any on-train problems and I will only accept a UPFN.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

When the Routeing Guide was drawn up, Manchester to Oxford was not valid into London Euston (it was on the old map CS and valid into Marylebone and out of Paddington), the +London fare allowed travel into Euston and across to Paddington.

The evolution of the guide into it's online format created a whole host of routes that were not previously allowed and probably not intended.

 

[OwlMan]

Thats a good way for a commuter from Manchester to London to save £4568
(annual standard class season to London £11356, to Oxford £6788).

Peter

 

[Ferret]

Thats a good way for a commuter from Manchester to London to save £4568
(annual standard class season to London £11356, to Oxford £6788).

Peter

I bet it won't be for much longer!!!!!

 

[route:oxford]

If it's "any permitted", is it valid on the X5?

I often used to travel back from Manchester to Oxford changing at MK onto the coach.

 

[mickey]

If it's "any permitted", is it valid on the X5?

I don't see why not, if you can explain it to the coach driver.

 

[tony_mac]

Is there a list of which rail tickets are accepted on the X5? I can't find a mention of any.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't see why not, if you can explain it to the coach driver.

Except that it's not anything to do with the rail industry (except perhaps for accepting some Plusbus tickets).

 

[John @ home]

is it valid on the X5?

I often used to travel back from Manchester to Oxford changing at MK onto the coach.

The current position is that there are through fares to Cambridge by changing to the bus at Milton Keynes, but not to Oxford.

Cambridge bus link via Milton Keynes

Interchange station: Milton Keynes Central

Also valid to/from intermediate stops on the bus route

Fares
Through prices may be calculated using the add-on amounts to the fares to MILTON KEYNES C

Add-on amounts
£7.50-Adult Single
£10.50-Adult Day Return
£11.50-Adult Period Return

£5.70-Child Single
£8.00-Child Return

Fares are also available in the reverse direction.

Through season ticket fares are not available.

Discounts
Normal Railcard discounts apply.
No reduction for staff privilege holders on the bus element of through fares.

 

[Deerfold]

The current position is that there are through fares to Cambridge by changing to the bus at Milton Keynes, but not to Oxford.

Now that I didn't know - although the discount for buying a through ticket isn't huge - 20p/40p/0p Single/Day Rtn/Pd Return and worth getting seperate tickets if you're not going the whole way.

 

[bengolding]

You'll be taking a big risk by travelling via London with this ticket, not least at the Euston barrier check or on board. At £122 this is significantly cheaper than the SOR Euston-Manchester at £262, plus CC set your fare not Virgin. Your ticket also doesn't have the '+' so not allowing cross Lodon tube transfer. 'Any Permitted' allows all permitted routes north of Oxford, not south. If this was the case, then everybody would be buying Oxford-Manchester SORs when travelling from Euston-Manchester!

 

[tony_mac]

Any Permitted' allows all permitted routes north of Oxford, not south.

you can't just make rules up if you don't like them!

What other 'Any Permitted' tickets don't mean 'all permitted routes' but instead allegedly mean something rather more esoteric?

 

[John @ home]

You'll be taking a big risk by travelling via London with this ticket

The case for an Oxford - Manchester Stations route “Any Permitted” ticket being valid via London is:

1. Both Oxford and Manchester Group are Routeing Points
2. On page C718 of the Routeing Guide, the Permitted Route Identifier states the Permitted Routes between Oxford and Manchester Group. One of those routes is “LONDON”.
3. On page A4 of the Routeing Guide, the Instructions state

   If the routeing code is “LONDON”, for all journeys via London you will need to cross reference routeing codes applicable “to London” with the code for the “from London” leg of the journey.
   
   If the routeing code is “LONDON”, journeys include the cost of cross-London transfer either by London Underground or Thameslink services. In all cases the transfer points should be along the correct line of route given by the ‘permitted route’ map combinations.
   
   The via London, Maltese Cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the Routeing Guide.
   
   In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the Manual will show an “Any Permitted” fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

4. On page F9 of the Routeing Guide, The National Routeing Guide in Detail states

   If there is a route “LONDON” as one of the permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, the range of permitted routes via London is discovered by the following method:
   1. Look up the permitted routes from the origin routeing point to London.
   2. Look up the permitted routes from London to the destination routeing point.
   3. Work out the range of permitted routes for the whole journey by combining any route found in (1) with any route found in (2). All possible combinations are permitted routes for the journey except those with a repeated map.

The case for an Oxford - Manchester Stations route “Any Permitted” ticket not being valid via London is:

1. On pages F16 and F17 of the Routeing Guide a worked example calculates the Permitted Routes between London and Huddersfield. A paragraph on page F17 states

   The yellow pages [1] list 5 routes for this journey. If the ticket is unrouted or has the route “Any Permitted”, any of these routes may be used. There is also a routed fare via Manchester. A ticketholder with a ticket routed “Manchester” must go via Manchester and therefore only has a choice of those routes in the list that include Manchester. This excludes MM. If the “Any Permitted” fare is less than the “Manchester” routed fare, the ticketholder may not go via Manchester. If the “Any Permitted” fare is more than the “Manchester” routed fare it may be used via Manchester.

2. For all Oxford - Manchester ticket types where both “Any Permitted” and “+ London” fares exist, the “Any Permitted” fare is less than the “+ London” routed fare.

It seems to me that the best case for an Oxford - Manchester Stations route “Any Permitted” ticket being valid via London is for a ticket type where there is no corresponding route “+ London” fare for that ticket type. This is so for three ticket types:

• the £141.80 First Class Off-Peak Return (FSR), valid by any train except those scheduled to depart Mon-Fri before 0930.
• the Standard Season ticket, based on a 7-day rate of £169.70
• the First Class Season ticket, based on a 7-day rate of £271.

[1] The yellow pages form the Permitted Route Identifier.

 

[tony_mac]

and

If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the
journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to choose any of the routes listed in the Guide.

that's a pretty clear statement.
it's hard to take the examples seriously, when they often wrong or contradict other parts of the guide.

and, as I said, in what other cases are 'any permitted' tickets not actually any permitted? There are dozens of other tickets across the network that have a higher-priced route specific fare, and as far as I know, they all allow an 'any permitted' ticket on these routes.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Lancaster - Carlisle

rte Any Permitted SOR - £30.10
rte Penrith SOR - £52.00

If the example is right, the 'rte Any Permitted' ticket above is NOT valid on Virgin Trains services as they all pass through Penrith, it would also not be valid on direct Transpennine Express services.

If the 'rte Any Permitted' fare is valid via Penrith, the example is wrong.

Fastis shows that both fares are valid on direct Transpennine Express and Virgin Trains services.

Also, according to the FRPP ('The Manual'), tickets routed for travel via London and marked with a '+' symbol "include the cost of Underground travel across London". This implies that other tickets can be/are valid via London, but DO NOT include the cost of Underground transfer. There is nothing to say this is not the case.

It is therefore my impression that the Manchester - Oxford 'rte Any Permitted' fare is valid into Euston and out of Paddington as shown in the Routeing Guide, but is not valid on the LUL services between Euston and Paddington.

When I put the journey from Manchester to Oxford into Fastis, insisting on tube avoidance and travel via Euston, it came back with the 'rte Any Permitted' ticket on a 'valid' route to Euston, back to Willesden Junction, round to Clapham Junction, across to Basingstoke, up (or is that down?) to Reading and on to Oxford.

 

[John @ home]

according to the FRPP ('The Manual'), tickets routed for travel via London and marked with a '+' symbol "include the cost of Underground travel across London". This implies that other tickets can be/are valid via London, but DO NOT include the cost of Underground transfer. There is nothing to say this is not the case.

I agree that other tickets can be/are valid via London. But I don't agree that they DO NOT include the cost of Underground transfer. Page A4 of the NRG is explicit that in this situation cross-London transfer is included.

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the Manual will show an “Any Permitted” fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

I do agree with previous contributions from Daniel that LU staff are not trained to deal with this, so a journey would probably involve paying for the cross-London transfer in cash, getting a receipt, and then claiming it back after completion of the journey.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I agree that other tickets can be/are valid via London. But I don't agree that they DO NOT include the cost of Underground transfer. Page A4 of the NRG is explicit that in this situation cross-London transfer is included....

Ah yes, I had a vague recollection of that, but I didn't think it was in the Routeing Guide and couldn't see it elsewhere, I stand corrected on that issue.