Oxford Low Traffic Neighbourhood

[zwk500]

Though I think Oxford could get there fairly quickly simply because unlike most of the UK it's mostly flat. The big barrier to cycling in the UK alongside the reason the Netherlands is so well suited to it (mitigated to an extent by e-bikes, though the barrier to those is that they're costly) is that it's hilly.

Hills aren't really a serious problem for most of the population though, especially if you're cycling regularly for more than 6 months. Pennine towns and elderly/young kids aside, you can pick up a perfectly decent bike for less than £100 that will do most hills in UK city centres. The problem is convincing people to stick with it as their legs adjust to whatever hill they're climbing. Once it's in your legs, you won't notice it so much unless you're in a town like Sheffield or Bristol and even then most working age people should be fit enough to cope, although an e-bike may be needed if you've got much more than a laptop on your back.
What really holds back the UK is that people seem insistent on buying brand new bikes that cost several hundred or several thousand pounds and then there is nowhere secure to leave them. In the Netherlands you don't have to worry about that because everybody uses a bike that's older than them and there's a bike rack on every corner. The hills help because you can use single gear, 3 gear of 7 gear bikes which are internal hubs rather than external derailleurs but I think hills are a mental barrier more than a physical one.

I recommend this video on cycling in Switzerland for discussion of why hills aren't as important as culture or infrastructure:

 

[BanburyBlue]

So can someone confirm my understanding of LTNs, as I think there is a lot of confusion with the bus gates.

I thought LTNs was to stop traffic using rat runs/residential area roads, to force traffic onto the main roads? A lot of issues mentioned above are more to do with the bus gates that force traffic down certain roads to get to a specific location. I go to Speedwell Street a lot, and at the moment I can use Abingdon Road, Botley Road (when it's open) and Banbury/Woodstock Roads. I can't use the High Street because of the bus gate. I believe they plan to put a new bus gate somewhere along Hollybush Row/Thames Street, near Westgate Shopping Centre. So when that is in operation, I believe my only option will be the Abingdon Road.

It also feels that the anti-LTN brigade are a lot more vocal that the pro-LTN brigade. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who like the LTN concept.

 

[adamedwards]

I can't comment on the detail but as a visitor, I've been to Oxford twice with my family and we were struck by how horrible the congestion is in the city centre and how the city feels very car dominated. Cambridge, which is very pedestrianised in the city centre is so much nicer, so we go to Cambridge instead. It's a mirco example, but shows how traffic can influence people to spend their money in places which are nicer to visit. Oxford needs to catch up with Cambridge and I'm glad it's making steps in that direction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hills aren't really a serious problem for most of the population though, especially if you're cycling regularly for more than 6 months. Pennine towns and elderly/young kids aside, you can pick up a perfectly decent bike for less than £100 that will do most hills in UK city centres. The problem is convincing people to stick with it as their legs adjust to whatever hill they're climbing. Once it's in your legs, you won't notice it so much unless you're in a town like Sheffield or Bristol and even then most working age people should be fit enough to cope, although an e-bike may be needed if you've got much more than a laptop on your back.
What really holds back the UK is that people seem insistent on buying brand new bikes that cost several hundred or several thousand pounds and then there is nowhere secure to leave them. In the Netherlands you don't have to worry about that because everybody uses a bike that's older than them and there's a bike rack on every corner. The hills help because you can use single gear, 3 gear of 7 gear bikes which are internal hubs rather than external derailleurs but I think hills are a mental barrier more than a physical one.

I recommend this video on cycling in Switzerland for discussion of why hills aren't as important as culture or infrastructure:

I've gone into detail on bikes here as it's going a bit OT:

Utility cycling, hills and other practicalities - the Netherlands vs. elsewhere

From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/oxford-low-traffic-neighbourhood.247180/page-2#post-6178678 Hills aren't really a serious problem for most of the population though, especially if you're cycling regularly for more than 6 months. Pennine towns and elderly/young kids aside, you can...

www.railforums.co.uk

With regard to the Swiss, one thing that's common there where people live in the hills and work in the valleys is owning a folding scooter (not an e-scooter, just a manual one) and scooting downhill to work in the morning, then folding it and taking it home in the evening on the bus, train or funicular, though I'm sure e-bikes are finding their role now. It was quite comedy seeing for the first time a parade of people on what look like kids' scooters in suits (Swiss offices are still quite formal) with a laptop bag or briefcase clipped to the bars. But about the only place that'd be applicable to in Oxford is if you live in Botley/South Hinksey - the rest of it is flat. And most Swiss cities are fairly flat too, they tend to be built in valleys, though there are a few exceptions e.g. Lausanne and Lugano.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

(And I do wonder how many of those supporting and/or living in LTNs are quite happy to drive their own vehicles along other people's streets, without a moment's concern for the folk living there.....)

More people in Oxford cycle or walk to work than drive, and that's even before you take buses into account. Unsurprisingly, there's a high correlation between cyclists and LTN supporters. So I think the answer to your "I wonder" is "not many" - certainly the LTN supporters I know are very much "bike for everyday journeys, car for exceptional journeys" people.

With the JR, the big missed opportunity was the Barton Park development on the ring road. A dedicated Park & Ride there, with an electric shuttle bus for the 1km journey to the JR via Northway, would have been transformative. One of Oxford City Council's two big planning screwups in recent years (the other, of course, was the Westgate).

Wow didn’t expect this to kick off so much interest. My parents live on the Florence Park area, I live in a village in North West Oxfordshire. Current choice of routes are down the A44, currently down to one lane due road works, via the A40 usually very busy, or over the toll bridge and then
in via the Botley Road or via the ring road. I can’t really access the estate from the Oxford end anymore so that cuts out down the Botley Rd, even if it was open, and up the Abingdon Rd and Donington Bridge. I used to go via Crowell road, that is now blocked, too. So really in via Rose Hill or via the Garsington Road and Cowley centre. Obviously it’s not impossible, but it’s harder. The general point I was making re the villages, is that all of the bus routes and P&R’s are Oxford centric, fine if you want to go to the city centre, but not so good if you want to transit Oxford to one of the estates or work locations such as BMW or Unipart. The ring road traffic seems to be getting worse, and we soon have the rail bridge road works to look forward to at Kennington.

Yeah, you really shouldn't be driving through the city centre to get to Flo Park. Central Oxford self-evidently doesn't have the capacity to provide routes for through traffic. Of the alternative ways into this part of the city, Marsh Lane needs less traffic, not more, given that it's perpetually snarled up with people going to the JR; and Botley Road/Oxpens is narrow and jammed, largely with Westgate traffic.

So that leaves the ring road and Rose Hill. I honestly don't think it's realistic to expect any other route to be provided.

FWIW the A44 roadworks are to provide a bus lane to make journeys from North and West Oxfordshire faster, which sounds good to me.

 

[cactustwirly]

My understanding is that the existing LTNs have just pushed the traffic onto already congested roads. This makes things worse, as buses etc get slowed down due to the increased congestion.

In Reading, my local bus route takes 25 minutes to do less than 2 miles because of 5he the congestion defeating the point of taking the bus in the first place.

When I drive around Reading I often take back routes to avoid the congested roads.

 

[Snapper37]

Though I think Oxford could get there fairly quickly simply because unlike most of the UK it's mostly flat. The big barrier to cycling in the UK alongside the reason the Netherlands is so well suited to it (mitigated to an extent by e-bikes, though the barrier to those is that they're costly) is that it's hilly.

When I lived there, cycling was great. My route into town would be along the river, wonderful. Now I live out of town, cycling is not so much of an option. And that is from a keen cyclist who did LE JoG not so long ago. I vary rarely go into the centre of Oxford any more, when I do I’ll use the Park and Rides. My issue is accessing locations such as hospital or parents house where public transport is not so good, but sit inside the Ring Road. Is driving round the ring road and then diving into Cowley or to the JR better for Oxford than diving to a P&R site, then taking the bus into the centre of Oxford and then a Bus back out to the location I actually need to get to? Bear in mind the car is electric, and the buses are diesel or diesel hybrid?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

More people in Oxford cycle or walk to work than drive, and that's even before you take buses into account. Unsurprisingly, there's a high correlation between cyclists and LTN supporters. So I think the answer to your "I wonder" is "not many" - certainly the LTN supporters I know are very much "bike for everyday journeys, car for exceptional journeys" people.

With the JR, the big missed opportunity was the Barton Park development on the ring road. A dedicated Park & Ride there, with an electric shuttle bus for the 1km journey to the JR via Northway, would have been transformative. One of Oxford City Council's two big planning screwups in recent years (the other, of course, was the Westgate).


Yeah, you really shouldn't be driving through the city centre to get to Flo Park. Central Oxford self-evidently doesn't have the capacity to provide routes for through traffic. Of the alternative ways into this part of the city, Marsh Lane needs less traffic, not more, given that it's perpetually snarled up with people going to the JR; and Botley Road/Oxpens is narrow and jammed, largely with Westgate traffic.

So that leaves the ring road and Rose Hill. I honestly don't think it's realistic to expect any other route to be provided.

FWIW the A44 roadworks are to provide a bus lane to make journeys from North and West Oxfordshire faster, which sounds good to me.

Yes I know what the A44 roadworks are for, but again there will be deadicated lanes for buses, but the only buses using that route are the two S3 buses every hour. And those buses are at a constant risk of stopping due to lack of ridership. I would far prefer the money to be spent on the a40, where the Ensyam P&R is going to go. Dedicated bus lanes all the way into Oxford could make real difference. Just need to get some trolly buses in place!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

Perhaps a link road from the a34 to m40 south of Oxford would move the trunk traffic of the ring road, which would give it capacity for the traffic displaced by the LTN’s

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Yes I know what the A44 roadworks are for, but again there will be deadicated lanes for buses, but the only buses using that route are the two S3 buses every hour. And those buses are at a constant risk of stopping due to lack of ridership. I would far prefer the money to be spent on the a40, where the Ensyam P&R is going to go. Dedicated bus lanes all the way into Oxford could make real difference. Just need to get some trolly buses in place!

The medium-term intention is to have a Park & Ride at Woodstock. The S3 between Oxford and Woodstock isn't in any danger of being withdrawn, though I think the Woodstock-Charlbury branch is at risk, sadly.

The A40 is indeed getting bus lanes between Eynsham and Oxford: see https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/resi...ks/future-transport-projects/a40-improvements. Construction inflation is of course taking its toll and I believe OCC is potentially rescoping the project at present.

 

[Snapper37]

The medium-term intention is to have a Park & Ride at Woodstock. The S3 between Oxford and Woodstock isn't in any danger of being withdrawn, though I think the Woodstock-Charlbury branch is at risk, sadly.

The A40 is indeed getting bus lanes between Eynsham and Oxford: see https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/resi...ks/future-transport-projects/a40-improvements. Construction inflation is of course taking its toll and I believe OCC is potentially rescoping the project at present.

I hope the S3 to Charlbury survives, with the 2pound scheme it’s popular to drive into charlbury and take it into Oxford. Often a huge double decker carrying a lot of fresh air though. Unaware of a Woodstock P&R, can’t see an obvious place for it. Unless they are thinking of the fields near the Bladon Roundabout. Re the A40 P&R it’s not a full duelling , they are retaining two lanes only over the bridges, with bus priority traffic lights. I would far prefer them to do it properly and have a continuous bus lane all the way in.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The Woodstock P&R is tied up with the various Blenheim proposals for developments along the Upper Campsfield Road.

The A40 will have bus lanes almost all the way. I'd prefer it to be all the way too, but the money has to come from somewhere and rebuilding the bridges would vastly increase the cost of the project.

 

[Falcon1200]

Don’t get me started on the craziness that is the JR. I have regular eye appointments, eye drops are used which means I can’t drive for six hours after. My village has no meaningful public transport. Parking at the JR is basically a non starter.

Parking at the JR is indeed ridiculous; Walking through there this afternoon every single parking space was taken and cars were dumped everywhere, on yellow lines, yellow boxes, and in once case on a pedestrian walkway (somebody had placed a traffic cone on the roof of that one!) Which makes me question, how on earth can all, or even just some, of those hundreds if not thousands of motorists be persuaded to abandon their vehicles for other modes of transport.

I accept that sometimes there is no alternative, but within cities a lot can be done to reduce car dependency; the UK has been very bad at this and LTNs are one way in which we are addressing the problem, but more needs to be done, including public transport.

Indeed, but the JR Hospital generates traffic from far away, creating journeys which public transport cannot ever realistically provide; For example, my wife's uncle had his heart condition treated there - He lived in Raunds, on the far side of Wellingborough in eastern Northamptonshire!

I planned a journey from a village to the north west of Oxford to Florence Park and it did indeed suggest via Rose Grove

Pedant alert; I think you mean Rose Hill, although via Rose Grove would be an interesting journey!

Oxford does have an excellent bus service by UK standards

Hmm, maybe, but even here there is retrenchment; There used to be an Oxford Bus Co (OBC) 13 between the station and the JR via the city centre, Marston Road and Northway. That was first cut back to terminate at Northway and then withdrawn altogether, reducing service frequency along the Marston Road by half, from every 10 minutes to every 20, and depriving Northway of its entire bus service. OBC also recently stopped serving the Risinghurst estate, fortunately Stagecoach stepped up, however their route (the 14) to the city centre is extremely slow and convoluted, as it was diverted to serve Northway in the absence of OBC, although it does at least run via the JR.

With the JR, the big missed opportunity was the Barton Park development on the ring road. A dedicated Park & Ride there, with an electric shuttle bus for the 1km journey to the JR via Northway, would have been transformative.

Indeed, or IMHO a direct road link to the Northern bypass should be provided (and should have been from the start).

 

[MattA7]

A lot of people seem to forget that some people with disabilities are heavily reliant on their car to keep their independence and all of this nonsense is making such peoples lives more difficult. It’s all very well encouraging people to use their cars less but for some people that’s less practical than others. Besides isn’t the latest government propaganda that EVs are the magical panacea to all transport and environmental ills.

 

[telstarbox]

Those people can carry on driving, but others who are not in the same way constrained can take some responsibility and drive less. Remember also that a lot of disabled people can't drive and rely on other modes.

Not sure why you've mentioned EVs unless they can magically shrink to take up less roadspace?

 

[cactustwirly]

Those people can carry on driving, but others who are not in the same way constrained can take some responsibility and drive less. Remember also that a lot of disabled people can't drive and rely on other modes.

Not sure why you've mentioned EVs unless they can magically shrink to take up less roadspace?

A lot of journeys can't be done by walking and require multiple buses.
Ie if you work at Cowley or need to visit the JR hospital.

Oxford isn't a place where you willingly drive as it's very car unfriendly.

People drive because the public transport isn't good enough. The buses are only useful for traveling to the centre of Oxford!

 

[geoffk]

The reasoning behind these traffic schemes is attracting conspiracy theorists and stirring up another culture war, but the programme also set out to explain the wider government initiatives around LTNs, such as the increased spending after lockdown to promote cycling and walking. Is this style of programme helpful and are LTNs a good thing in principle, provided there is proper consultation, given that we are likely to see many more in our towns and cities? A similar scheme here in Exeter has attracted some local opposition from the "usual keyboard warriors" but I don't live in that area!

Spoke too soon! There's a new LTN planned for the Whipton/Heavitree area of Exeter and I seem to have missed the consultation deadline.... If it happens it will be experimental, so subject to change.