Overtime Ban / Driver Shortage Cancellations

[185]

Hypothetical situation. Or not perhaps

If any company is unable to run it's services because of
(company) The drivers / guards cynically won't work overtime
(union) The company haven't hired enough and everyone's too tired
...either way, if they are unable to run a service, should the company be compelled to offer compensation if an ordinary connection at the end of an evening becomes unavailable?

Can't name the operator or location, but I'm of the view the company perhaps should be held to account for relying on voluntary overtime.

Your views please, greatly appreciated

 

[najaB]

In my opinion it is within the Operator's control, and it's not industrial action, so they should pay compensation.

 

[talltim]

From a passenger point of view, the reason for the cancellation is not really important

 

[455driver]

From a passenger point of view, the reason for the cancellation is not really important

But some passengers just like to blame the staff where-ever possible whether its the staffs fault or not!

 

[feline1]

But some passengers just like to blame the staff where-ever possible whether its the staffs fault or not!

It's almost as if they've paid for a ticket and expect to receive a service in return! :roll:

 

[Haywain]

If any company is unable to run it's services because of
(company) The drivers / guards cynically won't work overtime
(union) The company haven't hired enough and everyone's too tired
...either way, if they are unable to run a service, should the company be compelled to offer compensation if an ordinary connection at the end of an evening becomes unavailable?

Are you suggesting something over and above Delay Repay or Passenger Charter compensation?

 

[exile]

But some passengers just like to blame the staff where-ever possible whether its the staffs fault or not!

If a train is cancelled due to staff shortages this is surely the fault of the TOC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming the TOC concerned operates Delay Repay, then unless an emergency timetable has been published (rather than just regular cancellations), arguably before the purchase of the ticket, it is payable regardless of fault. For example, it has been payable (and has been paid) by VT for tickets bought in advance of the Lamington incident even though that is not in the slightest bit their fault.

If not, it will depend on the precise wording of the TOC's compensation scheme.

They must also get you to your destination or provide overnight accommodation if they can. (can != "is too expensive")

There is certainly no liability over and above that, e.g. consequential losses.

 

[185]

Assuming the TOC concerned operates Delay Repay, then unless an emergency timetable has been published (rather than just regular cancellations), arguably before the purchase of the ticket, it is payable regardless of fault.

...

If not, it will depend on the precise wording of the TOC's compensation scheme.

...

There is certainly no liability over and above that, e.g. consequential losses.

For this specific case, the TOC concerned did go as far as publishing an emergency timetable 48hrs before - on the route in question, there were no trains on it! - everything cancelled without replacement.

Then late on the afternoon before, a replacement bus was advertised - which at points ran over an hour later than the very irregular, 3-a-day, 4-hourly (!) rail service. The running of a bus over an hour later meant the passenger would have missed his final connection onto the last, late evening long distance service.

The TOC in question's Customer Services Manager has initially replied to the passenger that - the company are (i) not at fault, (ii) a bus was provided, and it's (iii) those "on strike" to blame, backing up word for word their initial response to the customer.

 

[najaB]

For this specific case, the TOC concerned did go as far as publishing an emergency timetable 48hrs before - on the route in question, there were no trains on it! - everything cancelled without replacement.

If the passenger bought their ticket before the cancellations were announced then they are entitled to compensation.

 

[185]

Passenger bought them on the day, (I'm assuming) unaware of the late-advertised changes, but I've suggested the response to give is that there was no connection available off that train - the final one of the day, a train the TOC was obliged to run as per the franchise agreement.

My thought was, any last minute amendments due to an internal staffing issue shouldn't get the company off the hook for late evening connections that no longer work.

 

[najaB]

My thought was, any last minute amendments due to an internal staffing issue shouldn't get the company off the hook for late evening connections that no longer work.

Oh, I agree with you there - the TOC was liable to get the passenger to their destination or to provide overnight accommodation. Doubly so if they sold the ticket knowing that there would be no service!

I was asking that to determine if they were due compensation as well. Having purchased their ticket after the 'emergency' timetable was in effect reduces (IMHO) the company's liability for compensation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it was declared industrial action I have a feeling they have a get out...

 

[najaB]

Does an overtime ban count as declared industrial action though? It might be organised through the Union, but the employees aren't working any fewer hours than they are contracted to.

 

[455driver]

Was it an overtime 'ban' or did not enough people volunteer to work overtime?
A big difference.

 

[CheesyChips]

I wonder if this is going to decend into the usual scuffle between those who believe the railways are a special case and can treat customers like dirt because TOCs are divine in some way and those who believe service providers should be held accountable when they fail to fulfil contractual obligations.

 

[Wolfie]

Passenger bought them on the day, (I'm assuming) unaware of the late-advertised changes, but I've suggested the response to give is that there was no connection available off that train - the final one of the day, a train the TOC was obliged to run as per the franchise agreement.

My thought was, any last minute amendments due to an internal staffing issue shouldn't get the company off the hook for late evening connections that no longer work.

What did NRE, the "definitive source" of information, say?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Was it an overtime 'ban' or did not enough people volunteer to work overtime?
A big difference.

In this case, I don't agree. Working to rule is not industrial action and, in any case, the TOC should have enough drivers to operate all services without the need for (semi) voluntary overtime.

However I'm not sure this was to do with overtime. The only recent strike action was on Arriva Trains Wales, and that was actual strike action, not a work to rule.

 

[Deepgreen]

Was it an overtime 'ban' or did not enough people volunteer to work overtime?
A big difference.

I think there's also a big difference between blaming staff and blaming the company.

 

[185]

Was it an overtime 'ban' or did not enough people volunteer to work overtime?
A big difference.

Combination of the two, as at many operators, Sunday is still out of contract and entirely voluntary.

Purely coincidence, this morning's BBC article by Justin Parkinson into traincrew shortages made for quite interesting reading. Some minor technical inaccuracies but otherwise fairly to the point :P
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35293307

 

[DeeGee]

In this "hypothetical" situation, as a passenger, I would have expected compensation.

Labour relations are within the remit of the train operating company. As are ensuring a full roster of staff.

And I'd also have hoped to be told what was happening at, for instance, Doncaster station on Sunday rather than getting half a message on a departure board in the concourse, hypothetically.

 

[tony6499]

A TOC should have as its contract a level of staff to ensure that there are no cancellations due to staff shortages, that it won't happen and never has happened is part of the failure of managing staff resources and has been for many a year back to BR days.

 

[Agent_c]

A TOC should have as its contract a level of staff to ensure that there are no cancellations due to staff shortages, that it won't happen and never has happened is part of the failure of managing staff resources and has been for many a year back to BR days.

I think "No" is an unfair burden - if staff being stuck on a delayed service and can't physically get to their next rostered service, that's somewhat understandable.

Should be "Have enough staff on shift each day to run all timetabled services, with a reasonable safety margin to account for absence"

 

[fabs]

I agree in this hypothetical situation it is the TOCs responsibility to get that passenger to his destination.
I think from a customer service perspective all this bickering does neither the TOCs or the Staff any favours. TOCs blaming Drivers for cancelled trains is disingenuous. But so is the Unions saying that the management deliberately haven't hired enough resource. I have sympathy with one depot that has a sickness/restriction rate of 21.4%. No company can afford to resource for that.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As an aside, Union ballots on such matters generally consist of two questions:

• Are you prepared to take strike action?
• Are you prepared to take industrial action short of a strike?

It's also worth noting that overtime/rest day work bans can come from either the Unions or the Employers...In either case, it results in a worse service for passengers.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've had to edit a few posts and delete a few more as we were getting thoroughly off topic. If we could try and stay on topic from here on out that would be most appreciated

 

[Clip]

A TOC should have as its contract a level of staff to ensure that there are no cancellations due to staff shortages, that it won't happen and never has happened is part of the failure of managing staff resources and has been for many a year back to BR days.

So you're saying that there should be X amount of staff waiting round for delays and sickness in the depots, just in case?

How much would you like to pay for that?

Though I will agree that it seems lots of TOCs do not have enough cover but again how many do you want?

 

[MichaelAMW]

So you're saying that there should be X amount of staff waiting round for delays and sickness in the depots, just in case?

How much would you like to pay for that?

Though I will agree that it seems lots of TOCs do not have enough cover but again how many do you want?

Apart from the fact that mildly aggressive questionning doesn't help the debate, wouldn't the cost of paying for an extra shift, one of these "X" staff, normally be a lot less than the cot of cancelling the train? I know it varies a lot but I thought it could run into thousands. Given that the TOC is contracted to run the services they need to have a contingency plan that is mostly effective, i.e. in all but the most extreme situations.

 

[Clip]

Apart from the fact that mildly aggressive questionning doesn't help the debate, wouldn't the cost of paying for an extra shift, one of these "X" staff, normally be a lot less than the cot of cancelling the train? I know it varies a lot but I thought it could run into thousands. Given that the TOC is contracted to run the services they need to have a contingency plan that is mostly effective, i.e. in all but the most extreme situations.

Im unsure where you thought some simple questions were mildly aggressive but again Ill mention that to have enough staff located in places to combat disruption and the legal requirement for breaks by staff would cost a fortune and also have the papers up in arms about staff sat round earning 'obscene amounts of money doing nothing' would add to the anger from pax

 

[bb21]

Apart from the fact that mildly aggressive questionning doesn't help the debate, wouldn't the cost of paying for an extra shift, one of these "X" staff, normally be a lot less than the cot of cancelling the train? I know it varies a lot but I thought it could run into thousands. Given that the TOC is contracted to run the services they need to have a contingency plan that is mostly effective, i.e. in all but the most extreme situations.

Depends on a number of factors. The cost of cancelling a service will also vary depending on where the performance level of the company is currently at, and the implication of the cancellation can vary a great deal too.