The disadvantage I had in this situation was the lack of a suitable detraining location - as his "Mum" was meeting him at the first stop, some 30 minutes away. I also really dislike this situation, though I've yet to have anyone else offer to pay for them.
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Overshot station scam
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Flamingo
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I've remembered one going to London from South Wales ... "My mum will meet me at Paddington". Unfortunately for him, he picked the day of Reading Festival (when I knew there would be back-up), and was awoken at Reading by the RPI and two BTP who I got to meet him there, rather than just chucking him off at Bristol Parkway to catch the next train from there...
I see people giving money to those highly organised Romanian beggars on trains (the ones that hand out a pack of tissues, that I always pocket as a free gift). People seem to want to believe that despite everyone saying otherwise, this particular person is obviously telling the truth.
I remember seeing people at King's Cross giving money to people to buy train tickets, and being conned because the person actually said 'I'll prove I'm travelling by letting you buy me the ticket and giving me that instead of the cash' and so sounded genuine - and even countered the obvious concern - when the person then went to refund the ticket straight after.
I wonder how many times that could be done before staff caught on, and indeed if they continued to refund tickets many times per day!
pne
Member
Don't they lose £10 admin fee when they refund the ticket?
(Though I suppose that for the con man £(X-10) is still better than £0.)
Yeah, but it's not their money in the first place.
I was asked once, and said quite openly that I knew what he was going to do, so he told me to 'go away' and moved on. I wish I'd actually found out what ticket he was after, to get an idea of how much money he would have stood to make.
Probably a bit more than 20p-£1 as might otherwise be given.
I must admit, despite not hanging about on the concourse for very long these days, I can't remember the last time I saw a beggar. Same goes for walking along Euston Road where you had people in smart clothes claiming to have been mugged.
I assume most people have wised up making it a lot less profitable than it once was. Plus it might be easier to do scams online these days!
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I believe that if the ticket machine which issued the ticket is still "on shift" and hasn't been cashed up, the ticket can simply be non-issued and a full refund given - you could give some sob story about no longer being able to travel. I've done it myself, but I hasten to add for entirely legitimate reasons.
DelayRepay
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Yes, there seem to be fewer of these people now than there used to be. I remember when I used to use London Bridge there was a woman who I saw nearly every week who claimed to have been mugged. She must have been the unluckiest woman in London! But strangely despite this regular misfortune, she still didn't learn that if you are mugged the best thing to do is tell a policeman, not run away from him!
There was a gentleman at a station recently who asked me for 48p. Such an odd value to request.
Flamingo
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You'd round it up to £1, and an odd number sounds more plausible.
causton
Established Member
Don't know about other TOCs, but it doesn't even have to be on the same shift! Can do them from TVMs and other windows (only in the same station though!) by typing in the ticket details manually, but there is a 20 minute limit policy at my local stations (or if the journey is very short, the shortest time they could have made a return journey in) - only really if given a legitimate reason though.
I think that would be a yes, without any suggestion that anyone might hold that against sarahj, or any other guard who chose to accept this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Someone recently approached me in a shopping centre to ask for £11.10. I can only assume that they were maximizing their chances, and they mistakenly belived I might actually give them a £10 note if a lesser amount were requested!
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Springs Branch
Established Member
On a visit to London, we were staying in the Holloway area.
Returning home in the evening and exiting Holloway Road tube station, we were met on the street by a young bloke giving the usual story: just been robbed, lost Oyster & wallet, need money to get home, blah blah blah.
"No worries mate", I said, "happy to help. This'll get you home" and offered him my Z1-6 Day Travelcard, which was no longer needed & still had hours of validity.
I won't post the response he snarled at us (there might be children reading), but for some reason he didn't seem to want a perfectly good ticket for travel anywhere in London.
Maybe he was worried we might be contravening TfL's version of Byelaw 22?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the other side of the coin and other side of the world....
In Australia, walking through the park near Sydney Central station one Saturday morning, a young guy came to walk beside us.
He proceeded to tell us how he'd been out on the tiles in Sydney the previous night, caught a late train home to Woy Woy (which is a fair way), fell asleep and only woke up when the train arrived back in Sydney.
"Let me guess", I said, "now you need money for a train ticket?"
"Oh no", he said looking surprised, "I just wanted to tell someone about the crazy night I just had" and walked away.
Returning home in the evening and exiting Holloway Road tube station, we were met on the street by a young bloke giving the usual story: just been robbed, lost Oyster & wallet, need money to get home, blah blah blah.
"No worries mate", I said, "happy to help. This'll get you home" and offered him my Z1-6 Day Travelcard, which was no longer needed & still had hours of validity.
I won't post the response he snarled at us (there might be children reading), but for some reason he didn't seem to want a perfectly good ticket for travel anywhere in London.
Maybe he was worried we might be contravening TfL's version of Byelaw 22?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the other side of the coin and other side of the world....
In Australia, walking through the park near Sydney Central station one Saturday morning, a young guy came to walk beside us.
He proceeded to tell us how he'd been out on the tiles in Sydney the previous night, caught a late train home to Woy Woy (which is a fair way), fell asleep and only woke up when the train arrived back in Sydney.
"Let me guess", I said, "now you need money for a train ticket?"
"Oh no", he said looking surprised, "I just wanted to tell someone about the crazy night I just had" and walked away.
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DelayRepay
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Not sure about this - if the passenger gives the money to the ticketless person, then they haven't bought a ticket. And even if they do buy the ticket, surely their intention isn't to enable to the other person to travel without having paid the correct fare?
I'd be very careful there. TfL come down fairly hard on people transferring travelcards if they see it happening.
I was told by a LU staff member that it was ok to give (but not sell) a Travelcard you've finished with to somebody else, obviously now most people have Oysters it is less likely to happen.
That is incorrect and you could be taken to court for it. I accept that TfL are likely to come down harder on those selling travelcards but the loss to TfL is the same.
Would it be acceptable to give (not sell) someone a Travelcard you haven't used yet? I seem to remember it was okay to buy tickets 'on behalf' of someone else (notwithstanding Byelaw 22).
That would be fine.
But it is apparently not illegal to give a friend or family member your Oyster card to use even if you have reached the cap thus allowing them free travel.
I've seen dodgy characters at Victoria coach station asking people who are leaving London for any travelcards they have finished with which they then try and sell to people arriving and nobody seems interested in doing anything about it.
In practice if I bought a travelcard in the morning, made a few journies and then gave it to somebody else to use who is going to know? I have paid for one days unlimited travel in London so surely it is up to me who I give it to?
Anyway TfL are a publicly funded outfit not like those mean and nasty TOC's who are only in it for the money
How difficult it is to detect has no bearing on its legality
You paid for unlimited travel for a single person only. If they were officially transferrable, there would obviously be a loss in revenue.
A bit like saying I bought a magazine which I then gave my neighbour to read so the newsagent should prosecute him because of their loss of income
No, you're right. This different action is not illegal. However, people are less likely to do this as they'll want the card back again for another day.
And every now and then there's a crackdown.
Er, no - I think I already mentioned that it's breaking the law. Laws do not automatically change according to how hard it is to detect people breaking them.
Anyway TfL are a publicly funded outfit not like those mean and nasty TOC's who are only in it for the money
That doesn't stop them prosecuting people for transferring tickets. It's a much smaller problem with few day tickets now being on paper.
A bit like saying I bought a magazine which I then gave my neighbour to read so the newsagent should prosecute him because of their loss of income
Except that's not illegal.
There may be a moral question here - feel free to have a discussion about that. However this is seperate from whether or not it is illegal to transfer a travelcard (unless unused and bought for someone else).
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The analogy I like to use is an all you can eat buffet. If you were allowed to leave once you're full and give your seat for someone else who had not paid, that would clearly be wrong
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
No. It is not.A bit like saying I bought a magazine which I then gave my neighbour to read so the newsagent should prosecute him because of their loss of income
I seem to make this point on here from time to time but it doesn't seem to have any effect on people expressing their own 'ideas' as if they are fact.
You are making a fundamental error in confusing Contract Law with property Law or consumer Law.
I may buy a sandwich, a Bentley, a magazine, or a mobile phone, and give it to you;
I may not enter into a Contact for Life Insurance, professional training, dental care, education or Employment and give them to you
The distinction which maybe should be clear is not whether you have paid for something, but whether a specific agreement with a specific person has been formed - a contract. A non-transferrable contract. A railway ticket is evidence of a contract.
We shouldn't confuse consumer goods (which can be exchanged at will) with personal contracts (which are based on the specifics of the people concerned). If you pay for someone else's dental care do you expect their root canal work done on your teeth?
In terms of rail travel, this principle was clarified long ago. The classic case is Browning v Floyd [1946] KB 597 in which Arthur Floyd, the husband, actually had a valid ticket in his pocket, but instead presented his wife's return ticket, hoping to use his own on another later occasion (on Appeal, his Offence was found to have been captured by three Acts of Parliament and one Railway Byelaw, and Doris Floyd, his wife, was found guilty of aiding and abetting her husband in two of those offences and one Railway Byelaw in her own right). Just because they had paid, you might think that they had fulfilled their obligation. But you would be as wrong as they were.
A little before then, was the incident of Michael Keohane who passed a valid ticket to Lewis Greaver and was found Guilty in London Midland & Scottish Railway Co v Greaver [1937] 1 KB 367, or long before then, in Langdon v Howels (1879) in which he used another person's ticket; these cases have been the basis for securing prosecutions in hundreds of subsequent incidents of passengers transferring railway tickets - tickets which are clearly marked 'not transferable'.
And as for not having seen the small print, even poor Mrs Mary Thompson who couldn't read, and therefore didn't read the exclusion from liability on the ticket which her neice had bought for her, wasn't able to argue that the company hadn't made the conditions clear - in Thompson v London Midland & Scottish Railway Co [1930]. How's your eyesight?
These fundamental distinguishing characteristics of Contract Law are not about to change because you believe that attempting to transfer the benefit of a Contract is "a bit like saying I bought a magazine which I then gave my neighbour to read".
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A bit like saying I bought a magazine which I then gave my neighbour to read so the newsagent should prosecute him because of their loss of income
Completely different.
You are not buying a "ticket" you are buying transportation, the ticket is proof of the contract between you and the transporter.
That contract, in its terms, says that the contract is not transferable, so you can't pass it on.
dcsprior
Member
A friend of mine has a season ticket for QPR. He has paid for 28.5 hours of football (over the course of a season). He is allowed to give someone else the use of it if he's not using it - for free or otherwise.
Someone buying a travelcard has paid for 28.5 hours of travel (in a continuous period, beginning at midnight). They are not allowed to give someone else the use of it if they're not using it.
I can see why people find this counter-intuitive. Of course, it doesn't change the rules, but I would sympathise with any unwitting person who was caught as a result.
Someone buying a travelcard has paid for 28.5 hours of travel (in a continuous period, beginning at midnight). They are not allowed to give someone else the use of it if they're not using it.
I can see why people find this counter-intuitive. Of course, it doesn't change the rules, but I would sympathise with any unwitting person who was caught as a result.
bb21
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I don't know about QPR but that is certainly not the case at all clubs.
I do not dispute the content of your argument, but your attitude. Why must we all accept that your 'ideas' are factual to the exclusion anyone else's?
A bit like saying I bought a magazine which I then gave my neighbour to read so the newsagent should prosecute him because of their loss of income
When I edited a magazine, the circulation was calculated on a formula that assumed people DID share the magazine with others. I forget what the figure was, but I think it was something like 2.5 or 3 to 1.
It helped boost our appeal to advertisers.
It wasn't illegal and isn't relevant to sharing/selling on a rail ticket in any way!
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