Overnight trains

[adc82140]

I've noticed that FGW run an overnight train between Paddington and Reading stopping at several intermediate stations at about 3:30am, and another at about 5:30 This seems to be quite unusual- I've never seen an overnight service (other than the sleepers) listed anywhere else. Is there historically any reason why the lower Thames Valley attracts effectively a 24 hour service (not that I'm complaining )

 

[tbtc]

I use that half three departure once - seemed to take *hours* to get to Reading - I suppose because I'm used to HSTs on that line (rather than stopping everywhere)

Transpennine run overnight to Manchester Airport - the trouble TOCs have is engineering works late at night disrupt those kind of services from running elsewhere. At least with the Thames Valley lines, there's four tracks, so scope to use one if the other three are being worked on by engineers...

 

[EM2]

Thameslink has a pretty much 24-hour service, except on Saturday nights/Sunday mornings. Currently suspended between St Pancras and London Bridge overnight (but replacement buses run).

 

[yorkie]

s there historically any reason why the lower Thames Valley attracts effectively a 24 hour service (not that I'm complaining )

It's not unusual for popular commuter routes into London to have much later/earlier services than other routes.

There are departures from KGX at 0136 and 0522 and arrivals at 0451 and 0459 and it's a similar story at Euston. There are even more Thameslink route services to/from St Pancras late at night with no more than an hours gap. There are frequent trains on the Brighton main line (mostly only as far south as Gatwick/Three Bridges) throughout the night, far more frequently than on the Thames valley route.

There is a 5 hour gap between the last arrival and first departure at Liverpool Street though!

 

[turbo mick]

ive driven the night services paddington- reading services loads of times 00.34,01.34,03.34 used to be hourly you can get a few staff a lot of paddington drivers live down the route but normally the wrong sort drunks glad we got cctv on the units now


mick

 

[The Planner]

At least with the Thames Valley lines, there's four tracks, so scope to use one if the other three are being worked on by engineers...

3 are never shut, its ran as a two track railway from around 22/2300 onwards.

 

[HH]

There used to be a lot of night services, but they've gradually been eroded over the years. Mostly under BR. They tended to be quite popular too.

 

[Aictos]

Thameslink has a pretty much 24-hour service, except on Saturday nights/Sunday mornings. Currently suspended between St Pancras and London Bridge overnight (but replacement buses run).

And seeing as FCC run both the GN and TL routes, I'm surprised the GN hasn't yet gone to the same level of service as the TL which is as EM2 has said is basically a 24 hour service.

Although I suspect it will happen eventually say about 2015 when you can travel from Peterborough to Brighton non stop without changing although you probably would have to at say London Bridge.

I know the demand is there and that's just on my line, just imagine the demand from the other routes on the GN.

Try telling passengers that the last southbound service is the 2340 yet the last northbound service is the 0138 except on Sunday morning when it's the 0039 unless there's engineering works and it's a bus.

We do get passengers who having missed their stop for whatever reason can't get back easily unless they use a taxi or spend a night out in Hertford and miss the last train.

 

[EM2]

We do get passengers who having missed their stop for whatever reason can't get back easily unless they use a taxi or spend a night out in Hertford and miss the last train.

You should see St P on a Saturday night. It looks like a refugee camp with people slumped all over the place, as the last Northbound is 01.38, then there's nothing until 06.04. It's the only night of the week it's like that.

 

[350401]

Up in the north (well Manchester) we're pretty badly served in terms of late night/overnight trains. Last trains back on the Macclesfield/Crewe lines are around 11.15 to 11.30pm and always rammed with drunks on a friday/saturday night. They rarely bother checking tickets on the 23.38 to Crewe because of this, though one guard lately had the ingenious idea of charging everyone £2 for a ticket regardless of destination. As a result of no ticket checks, NT claim there is no demand for late services because of low ticket sales.

There are some easy opportunities for late night services though. It'd be easy to run a 00.30 or 01.30 Picc to Alderley Edge for example, even if its Fridays and Saturdays only. And there is a 00.28 ATW Service that goes to Chester via the Mid-Cheshire line (for route-retention), but runs non-stop. Would be so easy to make a few limited stops and give big towns such as Knutsford and Northwhich a late night service. Such places are currently a very expensive taxi ride if you wish to get home before the first train. Talking of that the 05.35 to Crewe is often packed with v.tired students/drunks on a Saturday morning (myself included sometimes )

 

[Mintona]

Don't think there is gonna be a later one from Manchester. The 23.38 has only recently been re-instated on a Saturday night.

 

[350401]

Don't think there is gonna be a later one from Manchester. The 23.38 has only recently been re-instated on a Saturday night.

Sad but true. I was glad that was re-instated, was probably one of the worst aspects of the December 08 timetable. Still, there is a market for it and there are probably spare trains at that time of day. If ticketing was properly enforced (i.e. enough revenue collected to cover staff/driver pay), Northern could make a 00.38 FO/SO to Alderley pay. The easiest gain for NT would be to come to a deal with ATW, where the 00.28 to Chester stops at Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford and Northwhich (i.e. missing out small stops) and NT/ATW share revenue. The train is already running via that route and staff are being paid, so is an easy gain.

 

[91101]

There are night trains from Manchester to Sheffield, Blackpool and York, and I think there used to be a quite early service from MIA to Middlesborough.

It does annoy me slightly, that the south side of TL gets a full halfhourly night time service whilst the GN is 0136 and then quite a gap.

 

[charley_17/7]

though one guard lately had the ingenious idea of charging everyone £2 for a ticket regardless of destination. As a result of no ticket checks, NT claim there is no demand for late services because of low ticket sales.

If they were doing tickets before leaving Piccadilly, and/or as far as Wilmslow, that probably was me. Some platform staff are willing to do a single door check, but the amount of pax without tickets means it would be impossible to issue them all before the train leaves, hence the £2 idea.

We are pressing GMPTE to get rid of the silly ECD restriction time (18.30-21.00), because it is impossible to buy a ticket before boarding, as many suburban booking offices are part-time, the trains are too full to sell everyone a ticket, some people are abusing the system (from Piccadilly, Stockport after 18.00), and it causes confusion/arguments with pax. We would prefer just a £2 flat fare after 18.30 within/outside GMTA, £5 outside/crossing the GMTA. It will be a lot quicker/easier to issue the tickets, meaning more will be sold, thus more revenue.

23.38 to Crewe is one of the top ten worst for running late, usually it leaves Piccadilly at bit late, as this gives the platform staff a less hard time with late runners, also usually waits for signals at Heaton Norris Jn. Control usually want to know why (because its often very full), when 'no one' gets on it, because 'no tickets are sold'.

IIRC, in FNW days, it used to run past Crewe to Stafford, Wolves, Brum New St, then Brum International, very popular service. Used to be also 'overnight' services to Holyhead.

 

[krus_aragon]

IIRC, in FNW days, it used to run past Crewe to Stafford, Wolves, Brum New St, then Brum International, very popular service. Used to be also 'overnight' services to Holyhead.

The last train of the night down to Holyhead departs Chester at 00:40, arriving at Holyhead at 02:15 for the 02:40 ferry crossing. There used to be a train to Birmingham leaving Holyhead at ~02:00 for ferry passengers, but that was withdrawn in December '08, giving a long wait until the 04:25 to Euston.

 

[jon0844]

The last train is now 0141 from Kings Cross (to WGC) and I've suggested to FCC that they use a 317 or 365 (i.e. with toilet) instead of the 313s - although I suppose the 313s are easier to clean than running a train with a toilet(s) that are bound to get messy?

The problem out of King's Cross is that NR take over so early; even earlier on a Saturday.. I was told that this was a tradition and not easily changed - and that they have been trying. It's especially annoying that Network Rail feel they should 'reserve' more time on a Saturday night/Sunday morning to do work when it totally screws up those who have been out late on a Saturday.

By contrast, it's great for me staying out late after work on a Friday - but going into town on a Saturday means coming home early - and not even having the option of the all night (well, 0130/0200/0330/0430 or so services) services from STP. I could stay out late Sunday night though!

I do wonder why NR takes possession of the entire GN line in the small hours, and doesn't have a similar way of taking over 2 out of 4 lines. Is it because they have it as slow/fast/fast/slow instead of slow/slow/fast/fast?

I know that FCC is really keen to get later operation as the last trains are very well used and I was surprised how many people get the first train into London (previously the staff train?). There's certainly demand - and even more so on a Saturday!!! The question is; how does FCC change it?

 

[me123]

You should see St P on a Saturday night. It looks like a refugee camp with people slumped all over the place, as the last Northbound is 01.38, then there's nothing until 06.04. It's the only night of the week it's like that.

Oh dear. The woes of being a Londoner :roll:

Look around, London is about the only place where you get a 01:38 service, other than the Transpennine trains which are, IIRC, designed primarily to serve Manchester Airport. In Glasgow, the last trains generally leave before midnight, with the exception of a few additional Friday Night/Saturday Morning services, and these only run for an additional half hour or so. And it's a similar situation in just about every other town and city in the UK.

 

[jon0844]

Starbucks is open 24 hours at St Pancras, so at least there's somewhere you can sit when waiting for the late trains and have a drink or something to eat (but in the winter, it's cold there - especially if it's windy outside).

King's Cross doesn't have anything (and I think they will actually round up people and chuck them out at about 2am or so - as it's not open 24 hours).

 

[EM2]

Oh dear. The woes of being a Londoner :roll:

I'm not complaining about it, I'm just pointing out that it happens (mainly because people don't check the timetable...)

 

[jon0844]

Why does Network Rail automatically take control of the line every Sunday morning, such that a train service can't ever be scheduled on the Sunday morning (and a bus if necessary on the occasions when there IS actually engineering work taking place).

At the moment, you can't even timetable a service - and I am not sure it's even possible for a train company to put on their own buses during the night if the DFT hasn't approved their use?

It would be a good solution though and with so many bus companies operating rail franchises it would actually be quite sensible. Use suitable coaches with toilet facilities and I am sure that an hourly service would pay for itself once it's known about.

 

[adc82140]

There's very little running out of Waterloo after midnight- I remember when I used to live out in that direction the last train was 23:39, which pretty much ruled out going to the theatre, a concert etc. SWT do run a train at 01:05, but the stops are pretty limited, and mostly it's a bustitution.

I *think* Thames Trains used to run an overnight coach between Reading and Gatwick Airport following major stations on the North Downs line. Not sure when it got withdrawn.

 

[HH]

And seeing as FCC run both the GN and TL routes, I'm surprised the GN hasn't yet gone to the same level of service as the TL which is as EM2 has said is basically a 24 hour service.

Because it's not specified by the government. The main reason given for not overnight running is so that NR can maintain the track. Interestingly there used to be night services to Potters Bar at least - I used to catch them. About 20 years ago at a guess.

 

[87015]

Interestingly there used to be night services to Potters Bar at least - I used to catch them. About 20 years ago at a guess.

Don't forget that London and Manchester used to have a very thorough network of newspaper trains departing in the early hours often calling at many local stations and conveying limited passenger accommodation. Of course such a joined up railway was deemed bad a long time ago...

Just five example trains:

0200 Kings X - Peterborough
0100 Euston - Liverpool
0340 Euston - Bletchley
0145 Waterloo - Yeovil J
0245 Waterloo - Bournemouth (portion detached EH for Portsmouth)

And thats before any mention of postal/parcels trains which also carried passengers.

 

[The Planner]

Why does Network Rail automatically take control of the line every Sunday morning, such that a train service can't ever be scheduled on the Sunday morning (and a bus if necessary on the occasions when there IS actually engineering work taking place).

At the moment, you can't even timetable a service - and I am not sure it's even possible for a train company to put on their own buses during the night if the DFT hasn't approved their use?

They come under Rules of the Route posessions. They are agreed with the TOCs and FOCs over 12 months out, so they can and do object to them. Without checking them, Id be suprised that on 4 track sections that all of them would be subject to closure at once.

 

[jon0844]

If FCC has been objecting to the automatic night possessions, why hasn't it changed? Obviously I don't know what they've been asking for - but if I was going to offer a night service, I'd do it like the TL side and run a train at, say 0130, 0200, 0300, 0400, 0500... You wouldn't need to run any more frequent than hourly, and perhaps even 1.5-2 hours apart. Obviously, that still means asking for all night operation even if there are only 2 or 3 trains running the whole time.

NR presumably want to reserve time whether they need it or not, which must make things easier for them - but isn't the ultimate aim to provide a railway service to the public?

Unlike the tube, running trains during the night is actually possible and can/does happen in some places already - but then not at the times most beneficial.

There will also be the inevitable arguments that staff will be forced to work those hours, the trains will suffer more problems from vandalism, soiling and fare evasion (who will grip these trains?) etc.. but if we were worried about all of these things, trains wouldn't run at all!

 

[The Planner]

If FCC has been objecting to the automatic night possessions, why hasn't it changed?

If they have been objecting that is. They might not have done (though knowing what TOCs and FOCs are like, they would have done.....). They can take NR to a dispute comittee if they cant agree, but somewhere along the lines there must be some agreement.

 

[jon0844]

It's possible they haven't asked, and are happy not to run night services on the basis of what I said (crime, fare evasion, driver pay etc) but it's also likely that NR are going to want to have easy possession without needing to plan in advance and, presumably, pay the TOC compensation for when they stop trains running.