Overnight break of journey allowed with First Off-peak Return?

[Olympian]

I'm currently travelling on a First Off-peak return from Preston to Dundee. According to NFM05, restriction 2V for this ticket allows break of journey in both directions and also states for the outward journey "Where a passenger wishes to stop overnight or the journey cannot be completed within one day, break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed. Where a journey continues into the next day, travel must resume before 1200 and any relevant time restrictions apply(except where regarded as an unbroken continuation of the previous day travel where the first connection of the day may be taken). No further break of journey is allowed except for the purpose of changing trains. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed_in the ticket restrictions."

But when I asked for a reservation for the 0930 train tomorrow morning from Edinburgh Waverley to Dundee (the first valid train of the day with this ticket) I was told by staff in the travel centre at Birmingham New Street (where I happened to buy the ticket as I already had a ticket to Preston) that overnight stay isn't allowed on this ticket just because I want to and therefore refused to even try to make the reservation for me. When I stated that restriction 2V allows me to stay overnight if I wish to, and not just if I can't complete the journey on the same day, the supervisor in the travel centre allegedly rang the "Retail Services Manager" and checked in FRPP and confirmed that it isn't allowed and said to me "if you scroll down further, an amendment to 2V says that overnight break of journey isn't allowed".

National Rail Enquiries website says the same as Avantix Traveller that overnight break of journey is valid for off-peak return tickets, so are they both wrong? Can someone with access to FRPP please confirm what it actually (currently) says for restriction 2V. And preferably before I get to Edinburgh and commit to either staying in Edinburgh overnight or carrying on to Dundee tonight!

Thanks in advance.

 

[A60K]

I don't have access to the FRPP, but I never had any problems breaking my journey overnight at Glasgow in the way you describe when regularly travelling to Aberdeen on a Saver a few years ago.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry for the late reply.

This is a debatable issue. It has cropped up before.

If the ticket allows a break of journey, and you choose to resume it at a time when it is then no longer possible to get to Dundee, can you then stay overnight? I'd argue yes, but the alternative point of view is that you turned down the opportunity to avoid the overnight stay therefore you are not entitled to it.

Edit: I typed the above without realising that it actually says you can break your journey overnight if you wish. I wonder if this is new? I'll quote the text below.

BREAK OF JOURNEY

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket. Where a passenger
wishes to stop overnight or
the journey cannot be
completed within one day,
break of journey for an
overnight stay is allowed.
Where a journey continues into
the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply (except where regarded
as an unbroken continuation
of the previous day's travel
where the first connection of
the day may be taken).
No further break of journey
is allowed except for the
purpose of changing trains.
Please note that break of
journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed_in
the ticket restrictions.

If you left Preston at a time when it was not possible to get to Dundee that night, then there is no doubt that you can do it.

I once had an argument at Slough because they wanted me to get some ridiculously late train to Weymouth. The rude person there defaced my ticket, and I had to argue my case to even get it back. Fortunately I had no problems at all the next day, and no-one saw the defaced part of the ticket (it was on the back) so I didn't have to explain it, although to avoid arguing with potentially rude staff (I wasn't to know if it was just one rude person or a general attitude problem there) at Slough I purchased whatever the cheapest ticket to get through the barriers was.

On board staff tend to be far more customer focussed than off-train staff. In my experience the majority of guards are absolutely fine. Booking office staff are less likely to be good, and the worst (in general) are the (generally) badly trained barrier staff. Of course there are exceptions to that.

 

[Olympian]

Thanks A60K and Yorkie - I've just checked NFM03 (I never had NFM04 so don't know what it said) and "a passenger wishes to stop overnight" isn't in restriction
2V, so looks to be newly added in either NFM04 or NFM05. This to me is a welcome addition and should resolve problems like your example from Slough, but maybe FRPP hasn't been similarly updated?

The same wording is repeated under "Break of journey" HERE on the National Rail Enquiries website so I've now got two sources to quote if I get any problems tomorrow morning - I decided to stop in Edinburgh overnight after all! I'm expecting hassle from the barriers at Waverley too so it should be an interesting start to my day!

 

[yorkie]

No problems with barriers if you get the 1020 NXEC service, this is through to Aberdeen and will provide a better ambience than a Scotrail miniature thing masquerading as a train! Also no chance of getting the incredibly "desperate" guard who can be found on that route for FSR (he has a "no standing" policy unless every seat is occupied!) assuming he hasn't yet retired (he was around in Summer 2008).

I'm sure the guards will be fine with it - it's clearly valid - but badly trained and poorly educated barrier staff (no, that doesn't apply to all of them) can be a problem. Not sure what they're like at EDB though, as I've generally only got 'proper' trains from there!

 

[janb]

FRPP/The Manual says,

#4 - Break of Journey

Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket. Where a passenger wishes to stop overnight or the journey cannot be completed within one day, break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed. Where a journey does continue into the next day, travel must resume before 1200 and any relevant time restrictions apply (except where regarded as an unbroken continuation of the previous days' travel where the first connection of the day may be taken). No further break of journey is allowed except for the purpose of changing trains. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.

and for 2V,

Validity
Code

2V

Monday to Friday only – no travel restrictions on any other days

Outward and Return Journeys

By any train except those scheduled to depart before 09:30

So yes, you are right.

 

[sheff1]

I'm sure the guards will be fine with it - it's clearly valid - but badly trained and poorly educated barrier staff (no, that doesn't apply to all of them) can be a problem. Not sure what they're like at EDB though, as I've generally only got 'proper' trains from there!

When I travelled from Falkirk to Sheffield the other week on an AP ticket, the barrier would't accept it. Initially the barrier staff said it wasn't a valid route :roll: then, when I pointed out I had a reservation on the direct Edinburgh to Sheffield train, they said that wasn't right because if the barrier didn't accept the ticket it couldn't be valid :roll::roll: Rather than continue to discuss the matter with someone of such limited intelligence I merely waited until they opened the barrier for someone else and followed them through - not a word was said:mad:

 

[Olympian]

FRPP/The Manual says,



and for 2V,




So yes, you are right.

Many thanks; time for a strongly worded complaint to Virgin about the fictional restrictions they were telling me in Birmingham...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Update from this morning - I decided to get the 0930 train after all. Although I'd have much preferred Yorkie's suggestion of the later East Coast train, I needed to be in Dundee a bit sooner.

To my surprise my ticket opened the barrier at Waverley, and the guard on the train didn't question it at all. Apart from being 10 minutes late into Dundee, full marks go to First Scotrail on this occasion!

 

[yorkie]

I guess the barriers are correctly set up to allow it until 1200. Pleasantly surprising that they got it right. That said, a ticket can still be valid after 1200 but only if it was resumed prior to that, e.g. from somewhere like Penzance the ticket could be used on the sleeper, then a train from King's Cross, you may have to hang around for the ticket to be valid (on a weekday) by which time it's after 1200 at Edinburgh, and it'd be even later at somewhere like Inverness!

 

[moonrakerz]

On board staff tend to be far more customer focussed than off-train staff

Seems to be a common observation on travel organisations - British Airways were the prime example of this, but the cabin crews seem to be getting almost as "bolshie" as the rest of them now !!!!