Overnight advance

[michpunk]

Sorry to reanimate the dead thread and I am new here (though managed to read all 21 pages of discussion).

What is the situation with the overnight advance tickets? If I have to wait at Reading station overnight am I allowed to leave the station and come back (i.e. sleep at my friend's place)? If I am then what's the difference with "travelling short" which is not valid?

To make things even more confused: you can buy overnight advance from Swindon to Egham which allows you to go all the way to Paddington and then back from Waterloo in the morning. If I don't board the train at Waterloo is it the violation of conditions?

 

[island]

Officially speaking both of these are not permitted. In practice neither this nor stopping short is liable to cause you much trouble, except perhaps if you alight at a gated station and the attendant is vigilant and grumpy.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry to reanimate the dead thread and I am new here (though managed to read all 21 pages of discussion).

Welcome No problem but I have moved it to a new topic (original topic here)

What is the situation with the overnight advance tickets? If I have to wait at Reading station overnight am I allowed to leave the station and come back (i.e. sleep at my friend's place)? If I am then what's the difference with "travelling short" which is not valid?

You are not considered "breaking your journey" if you leave station premises under instruction from staff. Is Reading station open overnight? If not, then staff will instruct you to leave the premises in which case that is allowed. Finishing short would mean not resuming your journey and that is not allowed. (If you are asking how this can be enforced, the answer is it can't).

To make things even more confused: you can buy overnight advance from Swindon to Egham which allows you to go all the way to Paddington and then back from Waterloo in the morning. If I don't board the train at Waterloo is it the violation of conditions?

Yes it is. But it's unenforceable.

 

[michpunk]

Another question: terms of advance single state that "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

What does the last part mean? For instance if I have (another) valid ticket starting&ending in Reading (i.e. super off-peak return to Earley) which is not restricted to a particular train am I allowed to break my advance ticket there and use the other ticket to leave the station? (obviously no one would stop me, but I am speaking about the legal part of it at the moment).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Stricly speaking, if your journey did not involve changing stations you'd have to stay on the station and await your next train. In actuality, there are few manned stations that are open all night.

If you do not complete the journey, regardless of how, why or when, you are breaking the conditions of the ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What it boils down to is that you must remain on the booked train(s) unless you are permitted to use a valid travel itinerary.

The only time you are permitted to use a valid travel itinerary is when the ticket is routed '+connections'. However this does not account for non-reservable services.

Whilst using another ticket to break your journey may go unnoticed it is not strictly allowed.

 

[michpunk]

OK, got it. I am not a native speaker so I find the lack of the definition of "valid travel itinerary" on SWT website rather confusing. Where can I find it? Is it the "part of route specified by this ticket"? If so why "or" in the sentence (I understand this may be a linguistic and not ticketing question but still)? If the ticket is labeled "+connections" then it is on the ticket and falls under the conditions of the first part of the sentence, isn't it?

Another question, even more important one. Can you specify the exact moment during the purchase process on SWT website where I should tick the box to acknowledge advance single conditions which was mentioned on some of the 21-page discussion? I tried to go through the whole process now and the only box I have to tick requires me to read these two documents:
https://www.buytickets.southwesttrains.co.uk/shoppingbasket.aspx?Command=WebsiteTermsAndConditions
https://www.buytickets.southwesttrains.co.uk/shoppingbasket.aspx?Command=NationalRailConditions

Neither of them contains any reference to advance single tickets. Neither does clicking on the details of the journey. Ticket details part of the webpage says

Advance single £11.00

* 1 Adult(s) Full Fare @ £11.00

* This ticket is only valid for routes passing through Reading.
* Non-refundable ticket, only valid for the date, time and trains specified.

The ONLY way to get the explanation is to click on the words "Advance single" on the text above! At no point during the purchase process these words about no breaking of the journey are thrown at the customer. The last sentence about "valid for the date, time and trains specified" does not give a slightest hint on this matter.

------

OK, I am curios, I am a computer scientist, I like railway forums and I like to google and I can figure this out. Though I happened to click on this one only after I thought of the scheme involving breaking the journey and some well-informed friend of mine pointed out the legal problems with it to me.
So I could very well be the victim without any intention to break the rules.

The point I am making is the following: the claim that the advance rules are made clear and explicit for passengers is by no means valid.

 

[yorkie]

A Professor at Durham University was issued an Unpaid Fare Notice (UPFN) for finishing 'short' at Durham, the UPFN was then quashed. Staff at a nearby EC managed station expressed surprise at the incident, indicating that they are trained to let passengers through (with an instruction that they are not supposed to do it but will be let off!).

Someone on SWT was issued a Penalty Fare in such a circumstance (though this was on MegaBus, which stated that you could be issued a PF for doing that, however some informed people believe this is an unfair term), and the Penalty Fare was later quashed.

So, if you choose to finish 'short', are charged an additional or excess fare and you fight it, then I would expect you to win. (IANAL, this is not legal advice, etc etc).

 

[clagmonster]

What is the situation with the overnight advance tickets? If I have to wait at Reading station overnight am I allowed to leave the station and come back (i.e. sleep at my friend's place)?

Stricly speaking, if your journey did not involve changing stations you'd have to stay on the station and await your next train. In actuality, there are few manned stations that are open all night.

Sorry, Hairy Handed Fool, but I disagree with you on this one. The Conditions of Carriage State:
"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
...
For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your
journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start
your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
In this case, as you have an advance ticket with an itinerary involving an overnight interchange at Reading, it would not be valid, let alone reasonable, to complete the journey within one day so leaving the station to stay in overnight accomodation would not count as a break of journey, therefore would be allowed.

As for ending a journey to Egham in London, that would be ending the journey short of the destination which I agree is not allowed with an advance ticket.