Overhead line problems at Radlett

[SAPhil]

Thats because EMT only use diesel trains and were able to use the fast lines. FCC couldnt use the fasts as there was no power to the OHLE, so were stuck on the slows.

Nothing got priority, its just you cant run electric trains with no electric !!

In that case can anyone explain why the evening peak Northbound at Blackfriars seemed to consist of only 2 trains per hour? Were there other trains starting further up the line or was that really the best that could be done?

 

[Class377/5]

yesterday evening no northbound trains called at Flitwick for more than one and a half hours. in that time you could have travelled from st pancras to Kentish town on the tube at least four times.

my suggestion for passengers wanting to go south from London is to have services to Brighton start and terminate at blackfriars.

in an ideal world fcc would be able to cope,but in reality it can't and it should give priority to running a service for passengers who have no alternative.

I've seen my season ticket price rise from around £1500 per year to over £4700 per year with no appreciable improvement in the service.

Do you realise that doubling back from West Hampstead to St Pancras means an increase of 30mins? I know this as quite regular have to go home north via south.

Your using ideal times where you can jump onto a train and simply forget about connections, walking time and peak crowding that severely delays everything in London.

What times was there no Filtwick trains for 90mins because there was during peak, that I know for sure but please provide actual evidence of this not just mouth off if true.....

Why couldn't you just take a train to St Pancras and come back? Weren't trains stopping the other way? Then you still have an accessible option for wheelchair users and the elderly.

By the way, are you wheelchair bound? I ask this because my experience is that there aren't that many wheelchair users and I wonder if FCC might have offered a taxi service to them anyway during the disruption?

Also, why is my idea funny if it's the best solution? How far north would you suggest people double back? West Hampstead and Kentish Town aren't far away.. but would you suggest someone comes all the way in from St Albans or Luton to then get a train north? That said, if it worked out quicker because of disruption then why not allow it?

I do think you're being quite selfish by suggesting that everyone else should suffer equally, when it's quite clear that people needing to go a long way will have very few alternative options (a taxi is certainly not a practical option, whereas getting one in London if you're desperately in a hurry won't break the bank). London has excellent connections and there are many other ways to get to West Hampstead and anyone that lives there will know them anyway. Anyone there with any sense would kick into their plan B and C's automatically and want to keep well away from a station they'll know is going to be rammed - and the risk of getting poor information (and at St Pancras, you're also stuck without phone coverage for most of it).

Is it really that much of a dog-eat-dog world now that someone might not accept that there need to be compromises and that this whole situation is only during disruption, it's not a precursor to a TOC deciding to stop calling at these stations all the time.

Another benefit of being in London is that a lot of people will have a Travelcard and can therefore double back, take a bus or tube without having to worry about ticket acceptance. Those with regular point-to-point seasons might have a bit of grief, but will be entitled to claim the money spent back.

My point was if you abandon all stations from Kentish Town to Mill Hill then a disabled person at West Hampstead is strained as both Tube and LO are not step free. Note that I was responding to others demands of no services and stating why this is complete crap.

I'm being selfish by stating all should compromise? And being unselfish is looking one groups rights to walk over the others? Clearly you are being selfish and don't care about anyone else. Go and sit down and think as your being unreasonable by demanding others to suffer to satisfy your own needs.

I'm not a wheelchair user but had family members who were so maybe I'm not seeing this from same position as you or many like myself (fit and healthy 30yr old).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In that case can anyone explain why the evening peak Northbound at Blackfriars seemed to consist of only 2 trains per hour? Were there other trains starting further up the line or was that really the best that could be done?

Because the lack of capacity mixed with altered service at the last minute with staff already on shift and alter routes meant a robust but reduce service was provided.

 

[The Box Photter]

Then you will be causing problems to passengers South of London. The bigger flow is the Brighton/TL Core - Bedford route - like it or not thats what most people use so it would NEVER be stopped at Blackfriars, especially at 4tph as then you will have a drastically reduced service up the line.

All im getting from you is "my line is incredibly important because i live on it therefore i deserve a brilliant service, even if there is power supply problems".

Typical commuter mentality really, if i had a pound for every time ive had a commuter quote how much they pay then i could probably afford a London - Brighton yearly season 3 times over !! Funny how you dont mention the Thameslink work which has been going on and will result in more trains (whenever they are built that is).

I'm actually trying to inject some logic. Where is the logic in tying up train paths on a route that caters for both long and short distance passengers and then having those trains stop at stations in areas of London that are already well served by other modes of transport. It is a more effective use of available resources to concentrate on providing a service to stations and areas that can't be reached otherwise.

It's a cheap shot to bring up the season ticket price I know, but it is still relevant.

If you were to stand at Flitwick or Leagrave in the mornings, you would realise that the passenger numbers are very high. My observations suggest that most passengers disembark at St Pancras, Farringdon, City, and Blackfriars with some going through to London Bridge.

Brighton passengers can catch alternative trains from Victoria or London Bridge.

I can remember when "Thameslink" was called Thameslink 2000 because it was due to be completed by then. I expect to still be riding on clapped out class 319s by the time I retire.

My main gripe is that there is no willingness to consider alternatives to the existing plans which have been shown to be inadequate and the fact that stations north of Luton continue to get a raw deal whilst additional stops are added on already rammed trains to call at inner London stations.

If I lived in Hendon and knew there were FCC problems I wouldn't bother trying to use the service, I'd make alternative arrangements to use tube and bus. That's an alternative not open to Flitwick cattle.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm actually trying to inject some logic. Where is the logic in tying up train paths on a route that caters for both long and short distance passengers and then having those trains stop at stations in areas of London that are already well served by other modes of transport. It is a more effective use of available resources to concentrate on providing a service to stations and areas that can't be reached otherwise.

It's a cheap shot to bring up the season ticket price I know, but it is still relevant.

If you were to stand at Flitwick or Leagrave in the mornings, you would realise that the passenger numbers are very high. My observations suggest that most passengers disembark at St Pancras, Farringdon, City, and Blackfriars with some going through to London Bridge.

Brighton passengers can catch alternative trains from Victoria or London Bridge.

I can remember when "Thameslink" was called Thameslink 2000 because it was due to be completed by then. I expect to still be riding on clapped out class 319s by the time I retire.

My main gripe is that there is no willingness to consider alternatives to the existing plans which have been shown to be inadequate and the fact that stations north of Luton continue to get a raw deal whilst additional stops are added on already rammed trains to call at inner London stations.

If I lived in Hendon and knew there were FCC problems I wouldn't bother trying to use the service, I'd make alternative arrangements to use tube and bus. That's an alternative not open to Flitwick cattle.

Some valid points in there but if the train companies are instructed to serve these stations then that's all out the window.

There is a contract between TOC and DfT stating they must serve these station so what would you do then in this situation when you can only provide a limited service?

 

[jon0844]

My point was if you abandon all stations from Kentish Town to Mill Hill then a disabled person at West Hampstead is strained as both Tube and LO are not step free. Note that I was responding to others demands of no services and stating why this is complete crap.

I'm being selfish by stating all should compromise? And being unselfish is looking one groups rights to walk over the others? Clearly you are being selfish and don't care about anyone else. Go and sit down and think as your being unreasonable by demanding others to suffer to satisfy your own needs.

I'm not a wheelchair user but had family members who were so maybe I'm not seeing this from same position as you or many like myself (fit and healthy 30yr old).

I asked because you made a point of trying to argue for more stopping trains because of wheelchair users and the elderly, and me stating that FCC might have been organising free taxis for wheelchair users. You don't know if they were, because you're neither in a wheelchair, or - I'd guess - elderly.

A rather weak, even desperate, argument after realising that other people on here have made good and compelling arguments for skipping some stations well served by a variety of other means of transport in favour of those who are not.

I am looking at things from the point of view of someone looking at the bigger picture, but you seem to be looking at it from the point of view of just wanting more trains to stop at your station, even when the trains will then likely be crush loaded - then empty out early on to reach the final destination, having left people behind who can't take a tube/bus/taxi.

And why bother to mention the extra time to double back when it's only in times of disruption, not an everyday occurrence? During disruption you generally expect journey times to increase - you just get on with it.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In 20+ years of travelling St Albans to London (various places) - I dont think I have ever seen a wheelchair passenger , peak or off peak. Under normal loadings , you can barely get a folding bike on a 319.

Sorry - but when you have captive passengers north of Radlett to Bedford (with St Albans the busiest station on the line with over 6m passengers a year) - in timed of dire operational problems - like last night , a 2 track electric railway for 19 miles - you have to prioritise the longer distance flows over the Oyster area (who can pick their around the blockage) - fair point though about the Flitwicks of this world.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS - FCC do wherever possible pluck out vulnerable passengers at places like St Albans and taxi them direct during disruption. I speak from experience , having seen it done during major disruption.

 

[The Box Photter]

Class 377/5 said:

"What times was there no Filtwick trains for 90mins because there was during peak, that I know for sure but please provide actual evidence of this not just mouth off if true....."

I can tell you than nothing going north stopped at Flitwick between 17.02 and 18.26. This is because I tweeted to problem to FCC who confirmed that there had been an error in the calling pattern on my train (the 16.56 ex Blackfriars), which should have run fast to St Albans then all stations to Bedford.

I'm not asking for special treatment, just a reasonable compromise that doesn't leave me stranded at Luton Airport Parkway, Hitchin, Hatfield or Bletchley hoping to get onto an inadequate alternative scheduled bus/train or an elusive FCC replacement bus service.

I was talking to a fellow passenger this morning who left London at 6 pm on Tuesday and didn't get to Flitwick until 11 pm. He did; however, enjoy the nocturnal mystery tour of the North London suburbs (not).

Suggesting that I should be grateful for being dumped at Hatfield and wait for a non-existent coach to take me to St Albans or Luton, with a further bus or train to Flitwick is like saying its OK to dump someone who wants to get to Southall just outside the station in Ilford and tell them to make their own way home by public transport as best they can, or to get a service bus to Paddington where a train might be waiting for them. This distances are comparable.

The trouble is that at Hatfield the UNO buses couldn't cope and the drivers weren't accepting FCC tickets.

Still, I'm sure First Group has done very nicely out of the compensation payments it will receive from Network Rail .... shareholder value is the main aim after all.

 

[asylumxl]

I'm not asking for special treatment, just a reasonable compromise that doesn't leave me stranded at Luton Airport Parkway, Hitchin, Hatfield or Bletchley hoping to get onto an inadequate alternative scheduled bus/train or an elusive FCC replacement bus service

None of which are really in the middle of nowhere :P. Stranded isn't the word I'd use.

Still, I'm sure First Group has done very nicely out of the compensation payments it will receive from Network Rail .... shareholder value is the main aim after all.

What about the compensation they have to then pay their passengers?

 

[The Box Photter]

None of which are really in the middle of nowhere :P. Stranded isn't the word I'd use.


What about the compensation they have to then pay their passengers?

Whilst I agree that none of the above are exactly "Terra Incognita", they aren't where I want to go and the availability of alternative modes of transport is somewhat more sparse after 6 pm than Mill Hill, Cricklewood or Hendon. Outside "the smoke", you may be interested to know that many bus services don't run after 6 pm, and those that do are often one per hour (assuming you know where and when to catch the bus from). You may also be interested to know that in order to use the bus to get from Luton Aiprort Parkway to Flitwick, I'd need to get one bus into Luton, then another from Luton to Bedford, hoping that I'd arrive in Bedford before the last Flitwick-bound bus leaves (which is at around 6 pm). Since the buses were "Cartelised" there is no coordination between different operators, so different routes no longer offer adequate connections, even during the day.

FCC could have made a realistic decision to support those passengers with the furthest to go, who also just happen to pay the most for their season tickets. I don't buy the argument that "they have to run trains to West Hampstead because its in their frianchise agreement, so is running trains to all stations north of St Albans.


If I claim delay repay compensation, I get a voucher that I can use to buy a ticket for travel on FCC trains. What use is that to me as I already have an annual season ticket? In reality, the amount of compensation paid out by FCC costs very little in real terms (although I'm sure the accountants make sure its recorded in the profit & loss accounts when it comes to paying Corporation Tax).

 

[westcoaster]

What happened yesterday was of NR's doing, suttons were pinned to blackfriars, Sevenoaks were not allowed north of the river at all, and brightons were running 4 an hour (from 11:00).
Now the problem north of the river was the restriction of going from 4 tracks to 2 between radlett and harpenden, but in reality it was slow lines all the way from London to Bedford. You have to understand that this was caused by the electrical sections involved I.e between neutral sections in this case sandridge (north of St. Albans) and elstree neutral section ( south of the junction). This prevented running south of radlett on the fasts, which in turn would have ment most bedford trains running behind a stopper and loosing time.

As I was only flicking through this thread about passengers wanting to go to flitwick, I would assume there were 3-4 options open to you
* train to st Neots - bus to Bedford - train to flitwick
* train to bletchley - train to Bedford - train to flitwick
* EMT to Bedford/ Luton - train to flitwick
* all shacks to train to bedford.

 

[C2L]

None of which are really in the middle of nowhere :P. Stranded isn't the word I'd use.



What about the compensation they have to then pay their passengers?

FCC do a good job at trying to keep any delay compensation down to a minimum. This year I've had to put in 8 claims for trains. With two of them I have had to argue to get my 30mins of compensation as they had the train listed as running on time, twitter of all places had to be used to prove I was correct.
In another 4 instances the trains have been for over an hour, dispite the fact I out down the delay of 60 mins+ they only send out the compensation for only 30 mins. When I call up to tell them that they have made a mistake, they each time tell me that the £8 I received is the full amount I am entitled to. With all the claims I have made over the years I know that its meant to be around £15 for 60mins for my ticket. Now you could call me petty for chasing such a small amount, but to me that is money I'm entitled to without any arguments/chasing.

And this is the case of someone who does claim when the train is late. From a full train I imagine only a handful bother to claim. Some of the people I know that travel with me from Harlington didn't claim at all before I encouraged them. and now when they get half of the money they are entitled to they just take it as they don't want the hassle trying to get blood from a stone.

 

[The Box Photter]

What happened yesterday was of NR's doing, suttons were pinned to blackfriars, Sevenoaks were not allowed north of the river at all, and brightons were running 4 an hour (from 11:00).
Now the problem north of the river was the restriction of going from 4 tracks to 2 between radlett and harpenden, but in reality it was slow lines all the way from London to Bedford. You have to understand that this was caused by the electrical sections involved I.e between neutral sections in this case sandridge (north of St. Albans) and elstree neutral section ( south of the junction). This prevented running south of radlett on the fasts, which in turn would have ment most bedford trains running behind a stopper and loosing time.

As I was only flicking through this thread about passengers wanting to go to flitwick, I would assume there were 3-4 options open to you
* train to st Neots - bus to Bedford - train to flitwick
* train to bletchley - train to Bedford - train to flitwick
* EMT to Bedford/ Luton - train to flitwick
* all shacks to train to bedford.

You're absolutely right about the restriction to two lines, but you're all completely missing the point that there is NO NEED to run the "stoppers" because YOU CAN GET TO HENDON (and the other inner stations) FROM CENTRAL LONDON BY TUBE AND BUS! You don't think that everyone who uses FCC from Hendon lives next to the station do you? The probably already get the the station by bus or bike or foot.

On Tuesday I took a train to Arlesey (GN Line) and paid £25 taxi back to Flitwick.

Train to Bletchley is a non-starter because they run a single Class 153 hourly at 17.31 and 18.31. Miss the 18.31 and you've a long wait on Bletchley station until 20.01. Journey time Bletchley - Bedford is 45 to 50 mins. Trains running south from Bedford on both days were mostly running fast to Luton Airport or St Albans, so I'd still have been stuck at Bedford. Simply to get from Euston to Bletchley to catch the 18.31 would have meant leaving work at about 14.45, which would certainly have improved my promotion chances.

EMT couldn't run at all on Tuesday as the wires were all over the place and then I'd still have been dependent on FCC assuming the EMT stopped at Luton or Bedford. As I have already pointed out, FCC wasn't running trains that called at Flitwick, Leagrave, Harpenden or Harlington, from any station. It was too busy getting its core passengers back to Cricklewood, West Hampstead, Mill Hill and Hendon.

The "all shacks" train calling pattern was "All stations to St Albans, then LAP. then fast to Bedford.

Had FCC cancelled the "all shacks" it could have transported the 20,000-odd passengers it ****ed off by making them join a half-mile queue snaking around the station car park at Hatfield waiting for coaches to turn up. It could have run trains fast from St Pancras LL to Elstree, Radlett, St Albans and all stations to Bedford. Instead it further alienated masses of people who are already hoping that the next franchise is awarded to anyone but First Group.

 

[asylumxl]

Outside "the smoke", you may be interested to know that many bus services don't run after 6 pm, and those that do are often one per hour (assuming you know where and when to catch the bus from). You may also be interested to know that in order to use the bus to get from Luton Aiprort Parkway to Flitwick, I'd need to get one bus into Luton, then another from Luton to Bedford, hoping that I'd arrive in Bedford before the last Flitwick-bound bus leaves (which is at around 6 pm). Since the buses were "Cartelised" there is no coordination between different operators, so different routes no longer offer adequate connections, even during the day.

I'm very well aware of the awful bus service in the area from experience. To be honest this is the fault of the bus operators and by extension the councils. I know if Arriva had its way most bus routes would end at 6 or so even between more major places. As it is it seems most councils have to pay the bus companies to operate a later service even when the demand exists.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

YOU CAN GET TO HENDON FROM CENTRAL LONDON BY TUBE AND BUS! .

.

.

Why not add Borehamwood as well - there is adequate bus services to Edgware.

Though what about the people from Flitwick etc who want to get to and from Cricklewood, Elstree, Mill Hill ?

There is an alternative to any FCC service - I gave up on them two seasons ago and drive to and from work.

 

[ushawk]

You're absolutely right about the restriction to two lines, but you're all completely missing the point that there is NO NEED to run the "stoppers" because YOU CAN GET TO HENDON (and the other inner stations) FROM CENTRAL LONDON BY TUBE AND BUS! You don't think that everyone who uses FCC from Hendon lives next to the station do you? The probably already get the the station by bus or bike or foot.

But you wanted to terminate the fast services (Brighton - Bedford) at Blackfriars so the only remaining service would have been the stoppers up from Sutton.

Though what if anyone from say St Albans wants to go to Cricklewood or Radlett or Hendon - would you expect them to go into London and back out ?

 

[westcoaster]

You're absolutely right about the restriction to two lines, but you're all completely missing the point that there is NO NEED to run the "stoppers" because YOU CAN GET TO HENDON (and the other inner stations) FROM CENTRAL LONDON BY TUBE AND BUS! You don't think that everyone who uses FCC from Hendon lives next to the station do you? The probably already get the the station by bus or bike or foot.


Train to Bletchley is a non-starter because they run a single Class 153 hourly at 17.31 and 18.31. Miss the 18.31 and you've a long wait on Bletchley station until 20.01. Journey time Bletchley - Bedford is 45 to 50 mins.

One of the bletchley s is a 153 the other a 150.
I get your point about what you are saying but people might want to go north from Hendon what should they do, get a bus as far as they can then what! There has to be a happy medium for all, it was me I would go to an all station all route service but that would not be possible as there is not an infinite number of drivers or stock.

 

[The Box Photter]

But you wanted to terminate the fast services (Brighton - Bedford) at Blackfriars so the only remaining service would have been the stoppers up from Sutton.

Though what if anyone from say St Albans wants to go to Cricklewood or Radlett or Hendon - would you expect them to go into London and back out ?

I suspect they'd probably already drive that journey. However, they could get a nice fast train (20 mins) into St Pancras and interchange with the (very frequent) underground network. I know it might take a bit longer than usual, but they'd still get there with a minimum of hassle and without having to wait with a couple of thousand other people in a car park in Hatfield in the snow whilst coach drivers take their Statutory breaks. St Albans to Radlett can be done by bus or taxi (in fact I think I once walked the other way whilst a little the worse for alcohol one Friday night).

The timetable will already be toast so there should be an emergency contingency that uses the new bay platforms at Blackfriars to run a split service with no core trains. The Sutton trains can use the bay platforms and Brighton trains can use the through platforms as two bi-directional tracks as far as Elephant & Castle.

There needs to be some novel thinking to resolve the regular problens that afflict the Thameslink route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One of the bletchley s is a 153 the other a 150.
I get your point about what you are saying but people might want to go north from Hendon what should they do, get a bus as far as they can then what! There has to be a happy medium for all, it was me I would go to an all station all route service but that would not be possible as there is not an infinite number of drivers or stock.

There is too much two-dimensional thinking on here. When everything is running fine, there's no problem with stopping St Albans and Luton services calling at the "local" stations between Kentish Town and Mill Hill, but under exceptional circumstances, it might be better to get the tube from Hendon Central into town to get to St Pancras for a train north. I have no problem with the idea of "going north to come back south" or vice versa, but the problem occurs when your only means of getting to your home, i.e. FCC has decided not to have any of its trains call at your station or the next nearest (which is five or six miles away and there's no connecting bus). Even if we could have over-ridden to Bedford, there were no timetabled trains back to Flitwick, Harlington or Leagrave for long periods during Tuesday and Wednesday evenings.

Having to get the tube from Central London to anywhere in the rest of London and then possibly a (frequent) bus that is already paid for on your Travelcard is nowhere near as inconvenient or stressful as having to take a train to a station that is still 15 or 20 miles from your intended destination without the knowledge that you'll be able to complete the journey when you're turfed off the train somewhere en-route. The London journey time might be extended by up to 100%, but the journey time is relatively short. Passengers from central London to stations north of St Albans were having their journey times extended by 200% or 300%. I'm concerned with the relative impact of FCC's decision to penalise longer distance passengers in the way it did.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Having to get the tube from Central London to anywhere in the rest of London and then possibly a (frequent) bus that is already paid for on your Travelcard is nowhere near as inconvenient or stressful as having to take a train to a station that is still 15 or 20 miles from your intended destination without the knowledge that you'll be able to complete the journey when you're turfed off the train somewhere en-route. The London journey time might be extended by up to 100%, but the journey time is relatively short. Passengers from central London to stations north of St Albans were having their journey times extended by 200% or 300%. I'm concerned with the relative impact of FCC's decision to penalise longer distance passengers in the way it did.

During the bad weather around this time last year they cancelled the 23:48 all stations and refused to have any of the fast services call all stations giving people a 2 hour wait for a stopping service at a time when there were few or no tubes and buses running. They do favour longer distance passengers sometimes - when it means they don't have to pay overtime to Bedford finishing crews.

 

[Firestarter]

You're absolutely right about the restriction to two lines, but you're all completely missing the point that there is NO NEED to run the "stoppers" because YOU CAN GET TO HENDON (and the other inner stations) FROM CENTRAL LONDON BY TUBE AND BUS! You don't think that everyone who uses FCC from Hendon lives next to the station do you? The probably already get the the station by bus or bike or foot.

On Tuesday I took a train to Arlesey (GN Line) and paid £25 taxi back to Flitwick.

Train to Bletchley is a non-starter because they run a single Class 153 hourly at 17.31 and 18.31. Miss the 18.31 and you've a long wait on Bletchley station until 20.01. Journey time Bletchley - Bedford is 45 to 50 mins. Trains running south from Bedford on both days were mostly running fast to Luton Airport or St Albans, so I'd still have been stuck at Bedford. Simply to get from Euston to Bletchley to catch the 18.31 would have meant leaving work at about 14.45, which would certainly have improved my promotion chances.

EMT couldn't run at all on Tuesday as the wires were all over the place and then I'd still have been dependent on FCC assuming the EMT stopped at Luton or Bedford. As I have already pointed out, FCC wasn't running trains that called at Flitwick, Leagrave, Harpenden or Harlington, from any station. It was too busy getting its core passengers back to Cricklewood, West Hampstead, Mill Hill and Hendon.

The "all shacks" train calling pattern was "All stations to St Albans, then LAP. then fast to Bedford.

Had FCC cancelled the "all shacks" it could have transported the 20,000-odd passengers it ****ed off by making them join a half-mile queue snaking around the station car park at Hatfield waiting for coaches to turn up. It could have run trains fast from St Pancras LL to Elstree, Radlett, St Albans and all stations to Bedford. Instead it further alienated masses of people who are already hoping that the next franchise is awarded to anyone but First Group.

What makes people think any-one but First Group wont make the same decisions?

 

[The Box Photter]

What makes people think any-one but First Group wont make the same decisions?

Perhaps the real problem is that the franchise system was flawed from the start since it doesn't encourage investment in either infrastructure or rolling stock. The whole system is too fragmented, with each tier happy to blame the other (in this case FCC was blaming Network Rail, whilst at the same time hoovering up large compensation payments).

Under BR the main line diesel hauled trains could have been used to deliver a service to passengers needing to go to stations north of Luton Airport Parkway, leaving the two slow lines free for electric units calling at all stations to St Albans.

EMT has no obligation to carry passengers in the same way that BR did, so it only laid on trains calling additionally at Luton & Bedford.

The people in charge have forgotten what the railway is for. It is to get goods and passengers to their destinations as quickly as possible with the minimum of hassle. Passengers don't care what livery the trains are in or what uniform the staff wear. They don't give a hoot whether the station is painted purple, red, white and orange or sky blue pink with spots. All that franchising has done is line the pockets of corporate lawyers, accountants and marketing executives, because they get a slice of the funds available every time a franchise is put out to tender and won.

The funds available to run the railways should be used simply for that. Use the money to maintain safety, pay the staff a wage that represents the skills needed to do their jobs and concentrate the rest on keeping rolling stock fully maintained with regular replacement cycles.

Maintenance of the track, signals and infrastructure should be handled by a single national not for profit company, with no sub-contracting to the likes of "Stobart Rail" and their ilk. Why does every new mile of track laid in the UK cost millions of pounds more than in the rest of Europe? Because at every point in the process there is another contractor involved who needs to take his margin to make his profit. Add all the margins up and you get the £10 million a mile railway.

BR was by no means perfect, but that was largely down to the meddling of successive Governments and being starved of investment whilst £billions was ploughed into building motorways and trying to compete with America in the aerospace industry. With a little more strategic thinking, our railways could have been completely electrified, powered by a chain of nuclear power stations that would have produced abundant energy.

Sadly, we now have a beggar-my-neighbour system where as soon as a franchise is won, the incumbent is looking over its shoulder to see who will win it the next time. The electricity used to power the trains has to be bought from foreign-owned (and in some instances) nationalised companies, generated in the most expensive way possible. Where there are no wires, trains are hauled by locomotives built half-way across the globe, whilst our own train-building companies have been sold off to their former competitors and closed down one-by one.

If it all wasn't so depressing it could be a Monty Python sketch.

 

[fsmr]

I would love to know these days how much cost advantage there is at the relatively low speeds the midland mainline operates of 125mph max for a re engined HST or Meridian compared to electric when you factor into the equation capital equipment cost, ongoing planned repair work to the OLE not to mention repair costs for unplanned events and the cost of disruption which you wouldnt have with diesel only and I bet you are not far apart and of course you get more reliability with diesel only

It may have not been the case with 1st gen diesel electrics and hydraulics in the 60-s to 80s or 90s but with modern diesel reliability, fuel saving and the higher cost of electricity these days, i doubt it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Under BR the main line diesel hauled trains could have been used to deliver a service to passengers needing to go to stations north of Luton Airport Parkway, leaving the two slow lines free for electric units calling at all stations to St Albans.

.

And under BR, both long distance trains per hour would have coped admirably with the demand I'm sure.
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Maintenance of the track, signals and infrastructure should be handled by a single national not for profit company,
.

It is, near as makes no difference, www.networkrail.co.uk
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Why does every new mile of track laid in the UK cost millions of pounds more than in the rest of Europe?

It doesn't. Costs are comparable when normalised.
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Because at every point in the process there is another contractor involved who needs to take his margin to make his profit. Add all the margins up and you get the £10 million a mile railway.

Just like in Europe then. Although there's not many £10m /mile new railways these days.

 

[broadgage]

I would love to know these days how much cost advantage there is at the relatively low speeds the midland mainline operates of 125mph max for a re engined HST or Meridian compared to electric when you factor into the equation capital equipment cost, ongoing planned repair work to the OLE not to mention repair costs for unplanned events and the cost of disruption which you wouldnt have with diesel only and I bet you are not far apart and of course you get more reliability with diesel only

It may have not been the case with 1st gen diesel electrics and hydraulics in the 60-s to 80s or 90s but with modern diesel reliability, fuel saving and the higher cost of electricity these days, i doubt it.

Diesel fuel is increasingly expensive, but you could still buy a lot of it for the costs of the present fiasco, which is not a "one off"
For this reason I dont welcome the proposed electrification of parts of the great western. I fear regular fiascos like this on the Great western with no effective service in cold or wet or windy weather.
FCC is a fair weather only, weekday only railway and I dont think that running FGW on a similar basis will be very popular.
The recent chaos caused by flooding was bad enough, but imagine a repeat with wires brought down and OHLE masts displaced by landslips.
There was considerable "anti first group" feeling in the popular press when it was announced that they had won the west coast franchise. I suspect that much of this originated from FCC victims who feared similar levels of customer service and reliability on the new route.

In the long term, railways will probably HAVE to be electrified as oil supplies deplete and become ever more expensive, but in the near term I wonder if rescources might be better used to ensure that existing electric routes work even in windy or frosty conditions.

 

[sarahj]

OHLE problems exisit a lot in this country as we have kept going with the use of cross spans, once one line gets pulled down, down come the rest. Germany stopped using them in 1973 on new projects, yet we built ECML and Bedpan with them. Plus much was done on the cheap, thus larger spacing on masts, gets move effected by winds.

I was chatting to a FCC driver who was going home, it seems the EMT train pulled down over a mile of cable and the FCC train in the middle suffered damage of over a million

 

[Firestarter]

I'm actually trying to inject some logic. Where is the logic in tying up train paths on a route that caters for both long and short distance passengers and then having those trains stop at stations in areas of London that are already well served by other modes of transport. It is a more effective use of available resources to concentrate on providing a service to stations and areas that can't be reached otherwise.

It's a cheap shot to bring up the season ticket price I know, but it is still relevant.

If you were to stand at Flitwick or Leagrave in the mornings, you would realise that the passenger numbers are very high. My observations suggest that most passengers disembark at St Pancras, Farringdon, City, and Blackfriars with some going through to London Bridge.

Brighton passengers can catch alternative trains from Victoria or London Bridge.

I can remember when "Thameslink" was called Thameslink 2000 because it was due to be completed by then. I expect to still be riding on clapped out class 319s by the time I retire.

My main gripe is that there is no willingness to consider alternatives to the existing plans which have been shown to be inadequate and the fact that stations north of Luton continue to get a raw deal whilst additional stops are added on already rammed trains to call at inner London stations.

If I lived in Hendon and knew there were FCC problems I wouldn't bother trying to use the service, I'd make alternative arrangements to use tube and bus. That's an alternative not open to Flitwick cattle.

. Passengers don't care what livery the trains are in

Hmm you seem to care what train you travel in don't you?

 

[CatfordCat]

I am puzzled by some of the comments on this thread.

As of Wednesday (the day the wires came down) my understanding is that no trains, either electric or diesel, were running anywhere between Luton Airport Parkway and West Hampstead in either direction, so the option of FCC running a limited service from London to stations in Herts / Beds wasn't on.

My understanding was that FCC trains were running between Luton Airport Parkway and Bedford (I've no idea how frequent - as this would have depended on just how many trains were north of Luton at the moment the whatnot hit the fan.)

I also understand that coaches (in addition to the Hatfield - St Albans / Harpenden service) were arranged to do Hitchin - Luton and St Neots - Bedford, so would have thought passengers for those areas would have done better not changing at Hatfield, and pretty sure this is what the FCC website was advising on the day. Obviously I wasn't at Kings Cross, so wonder if some staff at Kings Cross were giving duff information?

 

[The Box Photter]

Hmm you seem to care what train you travel in don't you?

I really just want to travel in a train that arrives at my starting station on time and gets me to my home station on time, without calling at every other station in between. I'd like it to be clean, inside (and out if possible) and have seats that are wide enough for my (average sized) backside. It should have heating that keeps me warm in the winter and ventilation that keeps me cool in the summer.

It should be reliable mechanically and have a coupling system that allows it to couple to every other train that it shares the tracks with, so that when there is a breakdown, either the following train can push or they can send a rescue loco to pull it. Why is it that every time a new tranche of trains are needed, the manufacturers want to "upgrade" from the last version, leading to interminable technical issues. Different batches of outwardly-similar trains can't operate in multiple because one lot of computer software won't communicate with another. Technology is being added to modern trains for technology's sake so that we have the ludicrous situation on FCC that causes the Class 377's doors to fail to release because the sensors on the train can't detect transponders or GPS satellites. What was wrong with the driver being able to push a button to release the doors.

It seems to me that British railway manufacturers were able to provide nearly all of those things as far back as the 1960s, if not earlier.

I don't care if it is electric, diesel, gas turbine, steam or nuclear powered.

So, to answer your question, I don't give a monkeys about the type of train.

 

[jon0844]

Was the line running as many services in the 60s and as long trains (so if one was cancelled, there was a chance to fit those passengers on the next train)?

Personally I'd also like to know if my train was nuclear powered!

 

[asylumxl]

Was the line running as many services in the 60s and as long trains (so if one was cancelled, there was a chance to fit those passengers on the next train)?

Personally I'd also like to know if my train was nuclear powered!

I believe a vast chunk of SNCFs TGVs are nuclear powered

 

[jon0844]

I believe a vast chunk of SNCFs TGVs are nuclear powered

Ah, yes.