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Overground Underground

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jopsuk

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In the "Ideal Fleet" thread in the rolling stock section I made a throwaway comment about using class 378s on the Subsurface Underground lines, effectively integrating them into the National Rail network.

now, clearly for this to happen on the whole network would require a fair bit of work- but quite how much work?

Most of the "open air" sections should be fine, and should even be relatively easy to convert these to 25kV overhead, yes?

Width clearances should be absolutely no problem on the sections served by the Metropolitan A -Stock- in fact, platforms could possibly do with alteration to reduce gaps

Height should be fine on the Aldgate-Farringdon section (Especially Moorgate-Farringdon!)- it's a pity the conversion to 12 car platforms will cut off what would be a potential connection point to the current mainline- not that those would be lacking elsewhere. Much of the rest of the Circle is near open-air as well. Could be tight through Euston and Kings Cross I think, and along the river bank? Ideally the whole thing would be wired though.

There would be potential issues on sections shared with "deep" tube lines, especially where these currently share tracks. I'd ideally like to make platforms as level as possible with the 378s.

Could the western sections of the Picadilly be included in this madness? If the tracks west of Acton were reconfigured with under and overpasses, the Picadilly could run to Heathrow without touching District metals, yes? Alternatively, terminate it at Acton and run the Over/Underground to Heathrow instead.

I'd stop the Bakerloo at Queen's Park and wire up the Watford DC.

Could wires go through the Brunel tunnel? Could we really wind up the aficionados of the Southern, and actually get rid of any operational need for the 378s to be dual voltage by wiring up all sections of the extended ELL, the NLL and West London route? (not forgetting the GOBLIN, too)

Finally, a name for this. If we're combining the Overground and parts of the Underground, and even running to Wimbledon, could this be the Womble network?:lol:
 
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westcoaster

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overground underground wombling free the wombles of wimbledon, wombles are we, sorry couldn't resist.

good idea but there may be some major changes needed, would it not be just easier to use the dc 378's, that way you would not need to string up the wires, plus there would need to be signal alterations/ speed restrictions , as signal spacing is quiet tight on the underground.
 

jopsuk

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Do look at the "tags" I gave this :P. I'm pretty sure the primary technical reason for not using wires in tunnels though is building them big enough.
 

Nigelinoz

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Do look at the "tags" I gave this :P. I'm pretty sure the primary technical reason for not using wires in tunnels though is building them big enough.
As a newbie here I wouldn't like to take the OP's thread off topic but here in Australia both Sydney and Melbourne have underground lines that utilise 1500V overhead catenary to power trains,obviously the tunnels need to be built with a high enough roof line to string the wires but they seem to have managed it here.
Of course I understand completely that the London system is much older than the Melbourne one!
http://www.doi.vic.gov.au/doi/inter...74164766E0CEAF95CA25700500122952?OpenDocument

http://www.railpage.org.au/trainman/tunnels.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8srtOyEn8g&feature=related
 
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paul332

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We have just about every combination of overhead and 3rd or 4th rail in London tunnels. The Thameslink (First Capital Connect, call it what you will) service runs in the "Metropolitan Widened Lines" between King's Cross and Moorgate (of course the section between Farringdon and Moorgate no longer carries passengers, and will be completely shut from the end of this year). These are tunnels parallel to and identical to the Metropolitan/Circle line, and were sparked with overhead about 20 years ago. So it can be done, but given that all the rest of the Underground is 3rd/4th rail, what's the point? And given that the entire Southern Region is 3rd rail, what would be the point of a short stretch of overhead for the ELL?

Conversely, Finsbury Park – Moorgate was left (or re-fitted, to be precise) with 3rd rail for the Great Northern Electrics, despite wires on that system elsewhere, because of the very tight clearances in those tunnels; for which dual-fitted 313 stock was acquired (and then a lot of that moved to the NLL, which has a combination of 3rd rail and overhead, gradually changing to the latter between Willesden and Stratford). (And as a complete aside, why oh why don't they wire the short stretch between North Pole and Olympia so WLL trains don't have to make an extra stop to change systems?)

As for the stock, the question could equally well be stated as why not use S stock for the Overground, or rather, why not use common stock for the Overground and sub-surface lines. Perhaps to do with timing; maybe next time round (which will probably be well under the 50 years the A-stock has lasted!). In my opinion the Metropolitan configuration of bench seating on one side and 2+2 on the other is slightly better suited to the Overground than the all-bench of the 378s, and hopefully the seats won't be as hard!
 

whoshotjimmi

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The problem I would have with such a scheme is that, barring a few infrastructure details that can be dealt with, the current system works perfectly well. So why change it? Essentially, the plan would be to replace underground stock on sections of the network with mainline stock and therefore the necessary infrastructure to deal with said change. But why? Unlike Thameslink, the plan would not create any benefit to the wider area. I understand the principle - there would be greater flexibiltity to run out on the mainline and therefore possibly new destinations. But surely any benefit would take hundreds of years to outweigh the costs? If it ever would.
 

johnb

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And as a complete aside, why oh why don't they wire the short stretch between North Pole and Olympia so WLL trains don't have to make an extra stop to change systems?

Because doing so would require expensive immunisation of the H&C signalling (as this is the stretch where the WLL crosses the H&C), which isn't worth doing until the SSL signalling is replaced as part of the upgrade programme.
 

CCF23

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maybe next time round (which will probably be well under the 50 years the A-stock has lasted!). In my opinion the Metropolitan configuration of bench seating on one side and 2+2 on the other is slightly better suited to the Overground than the all-bench of the 378s, and hopefully the seats won't be as hard!

In my opinion the S stock looks generally crap for the Metropolitan Line i have been told by several Met drivers that the chassis for the S stock is expected to last around 20 years max, this is only one-fifth the life of the A stock :o (although we never know what could happen). Why are things not built for passenger comfort and too last these days <(
 

A60K

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And of course the drivers are metallurgists and have been examining the S Stock very closely ever since the first one arrived in London... :D
 

jopsuk

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to perhaps flesh things out, it would be part of major restructuring of London metro rail services. I'd propose extending zones 7, 8 and 9 to be full loops.

I'd aim to make Zone 9 stations on lines heading out beyond interchange stations, with services between central London and "outside" destinations being fast or very limited stop between the terminals/thameslink core/crossrail core and the interchanges. All the services running fully inside zone 9 would then be run by TfL, using a unified fleet.

With electrification of the GOBLIN and connection of the ELL, adding in "mainline" running of the Subsurface lines and even most of the surface sections of the "tube" lines would essentially allow the metro service map of London to be redrawn.

Of course, doing so would be horrendously expensive and barring satisfying some sort of low-level OCD that I have, wouldn't really bring much tangible benefit. I may be well be borderline mental, but I'm mostly harmless.
 
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