Overground opening

[Class377/5]

'Our vital investment and upgrade will keep London moving for many more decades to come' - doesn't sound like very long. What happens after that?

Line upgrades happen every few decades. The Central was first to be upgraded back in the 1990's and TfL website now states the next upgrade will start in 2020's. Line upgrade could be classed as just new rolling stock as in the case of the Central Line.

 

[swt_passenger]

Line upgrades happen every few decades. The Central was first to be upgraded back in the 1990's and TfL website now states the next upgrade will start in 2020's. Line upgrade could be classed as just new rolling stock as in the case of the Central Line.

I read something last month in Rail Engineer giving a date for the Jubilee Line's next new stock to be introduced. About 2030 - so that suggests 35 years approx between new fleets.

However the same article suggests that the current 09 stock will be the last of the conventional type, the next 'tube' stock will probably be the first of the 'EVO' articulated train. Possible trial on W&C about 2016, followed by Bakerloo 2017, Picc 2019, Central 2022, Northern 2024.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is this "EVO" the thing that was first exhibited as a concept model at Railtex at Earl's Court over 10 years ago? Very short section carriages, fully walk through, articulated, externally hung plug doors with funny shaped door windows ( sort of large inverted triangle shape )?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this "EVO" the thing that was first exhibited as a concept model at Railtex at Earl's Court over 10 years ago? Very short section carriages, fully walk through, articulated, externally hung plug doors with funny shaped door windows ( sort of large inverted triangle shape )?

That's the one, (except its just sliding doors now) - but here's the magazine's online archive anyway, the article is on page 40 of the February edition.

http://www.therailengineer.co.uk/Archives

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is that only available to subscribers? It just gives me a blank page - on all issues!

I must say I am a bit surprised it has taken so long to produce this; at the relevant Railtex it was shown as being the intended design for the Victoria Line stock replacement wasn't it?

think I might actually have a couple of photos of the model from that Railtex - any idea what year it was?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is that only available to subscribers? It just gives me a blank page - on all issues!

Not as far as I know - I don't subscribe to it.
They do take a while to download sometimes though.

Paul

 

[Mojo]

Went to Highbury/Islington from New + Gate this evening. Train emptied out at Dalston Junction; probably only about 30 on to Highbury/Islington. Nobody seemed to use Canonbury.

It seems to be a 50/50 chance as to whether you get a cross-platform interchange with the westbound North London line; my train didn't do it as the Southbound ELL train was blocking the island platform.

Afterwards I went on the Moorgate line which was very strange. It felt like a Tube station but one in very poor condition and much colder. Had a non-stop train howl through before mine too! Got out at Essex Road and took the lifts to street level then back down the spiral staircase to the platform. Very grim; tunnel linings showing in place and dripping, mouldy walls, the station needs a lot of love and care! Loved the NSE signs too. Nice touch!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They do take a while to download sometimes though.

They certainly must do - I was looking at work and we have our own fibre optic link and servers into the backbone of the internet with a 1Gb connection speed! Although our individual computers are moderated to a "mere" 100Mb.

And it was still blank after 2 minutes when I gave up!

 

[Class377/5]

Is this "EVO" the thing that was first exhibited as a concept model at Railtex at Earl's Court over 10 years ago? Very short section carriages, fully walk through, articulated, externally hung plug doors with funny shaped door windows ( sort of large inverted triangle shape )?

That's the one, (except its just sliding doors now) - but here's the magazine's online archive anyway, the article is on page 40 of the February edition.

http://www.therailengineer.co.uk/Archives

The train Peter is talking about is the original S stock which actually was intended for the Victoria Line. Due to the coming of PPP, they ended up going to a more standard (ie cheaper) soluation of the 09TS. Some design work was carried over onto what we now call the S Stock for the SSL.

The original plan for the S Stock was shorter carriages mean from the 8 car 67TS would be replaced with 12 car S Stocks. Also that these trains were being designed with OHLE in mind (yes a Tube ;line with overheads).

What is in the link is the 'EVO' which carries on the work of the Tube 'S Stock' forward using more modern techonolgies but still remains to be seen f they build it. Its likely that the Bakerloo, Piccadilly and Central Line trains will the next lot of trains ordered at some point.

As for replacing the 96TS, I'd be surprised as they are doing well tho 40yrs is about right for a Tube stock to be replaced and using an EVO platform train will one way to add additonal capcity that the Jubilee may need after the current upgrade is finished this 'spring'.

 

[swt_passenger]

The train Peter is talking about is the original S stock which actually was intended for the Victoria Line.

You mean the proposed '2009 stock' surely? Lettered stock, like 'S' is used on the SSR - tube line stock has normally been designated by the year of entry into service...

 

[Class377/5]

You mean the proposed '2009 stock' surely? Lettered stock, like 'S' is used on the SSR - tube line stock has normally been designated by the year of entry into service...

No I don't. The original Victoria Line trains were designed to be so radical (overheads for starters) that they were called the S Stock, S meaning Space. The idea was to create a train that could cope with the large volume of passengers using the line.

Yes your correct letters have never been used for Tube stock but in the 90's it was seriously looked at and used. Whether or not if these trains had been introduced under the original plans and still kept the name S stock is another matter.

 

[transmanche]

No I don't. The original Victoria Line trains were designed to be so radical (overheads for starters) that they were called the S Stock, S meaning Space. The idea was to create a train that could cope with the large volume of passengers using the line.

Yes your correct letters have never been used for Tube stock but in the 90's it was seriously looked at and used. Whether or not if these trains had been introduced under the original plans and still kept the name S stock is another matter.

I know it was nicknamed the space train, as the mockups showed they had a lot more space inside than previous tube trains. But the idea never got as far as having a 'proper' name. So even if they had been built, I seriously doubt they would have been called the S stock.

 

[MCR247]

They don't look like they have much more space hock:

 

[transmanche]

They don't look like they have much more space hock:

Well the articulation means that you get extra passenger space between cars. And shorter articulated cars mean they can be wider.

 

[Alex McKenna]

Yes, or we wouldn't have known at all, but the little extension does make quite a bit of difference given it hooks up to Highbury & Islington, with exchanges to FCC and the Victoria Line. People don't like making lots of changes, so those two stations saved could really boost usage.

Or it might not, as I don't know how well used the 'new' service is.

I went there yesterday, to check it out, from Shoreditch to Islington, and came back on the Victoria Line. Thought about going on the Moorgate line, but I just missed one train and didn't feel like waiting till Xmas for the next one.
Could be very useful for City workers, if they knew about it, except that Shoreditch station seems to be hidden. The entrance is in the back-streets, rather than on the corner near the main road. Are they intending to open up a more prominent entrance near Bishopsgate? Or put a large roundel on the bridge?

 

[jon0844]

I struggled to find the entrance and I knew it was there (and that it was open)! It's a long walk too.

 

[JKJimar53]

I think SDC should of had two entrances, one where it is now and the other on (or close to) Brick Lane

 

[Aictos]

Thought about going on the Moorgate line, but I just missed one train and didn't feel like waiting till Xmas for the next one.

On the Great Northern between Moorgate and Alexandra Palace, the FCCs run practically every 10 minutes in both directions so can't understand the reasoning behind your post, it's the only part of the route which operates a true turn up and go service.

 

[Mojo]

There are some 15 Min gaps after about 18.30.

 

[jon0844]

The long-term plan is to have 15 minute services to both WGC and Hertford, which will in turn mean a service approximately every 7.5 minutes from Alexandra Palace to Moorgate (or King's Cross).

I think that it's more likely that by this time, London Overground will take over one or both routes. By doing so, I wonder if London Overground will then run to Moorgate even at weekends and late at night? This will of course have an impact on users who will now arrive at Moorgate instead of King's Cross for certain stations - but I can't see London Overground running to two different destinations at different times.

Still, it's early days and I must admit I've not heard much about any developments on this after I heard that a 378 was successfully tested in and out of Moorgate last year on the Northern City line.

I think it would be a good move though. For one thing, it creates some competition on the ECML for commuters on the inner-suburban sections. That can only be a good thing, especially if the London Travelcard zones are extended to Hertford and WGC respectively.

 

[jopsuk]

I'd guess that if LO took over Moorgate services using 378s, it would need a completely seperate unit pool from the NLL/WLL/Watford 378/2s, as four car units would be of little use- little chance of it being possible to lenghten the "tube" platforms enough.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure they'd need to be 3-car like the 313s are now.

 

[causton]

What's this about a 378 to Moorgate? Any pictures/more details?

 

[cle]

I think SDC should of had two entrances, one where it is now and the other on (or close to) Brick Lane

They kind of do, by virtue of the two access points under the bridge. It's not very well signposted from Commercial Street really, or Shoreditch High St for that matter. Most people use the Bethnal Green Road way in - which has very quick access to Brick Lane if you turn immediately right after taking the left exit.

The Commercial St exit is probably better for the curry end of Brick Lane though.

I think once the land in between is developed, including all the arches, it will be a bit clearer.

------

On the FCC routes, what length are the underground tunnels? Can't they take 2x3 car 313s? So they could order sets of 6-car 378s maybe?

And send the 313s up to the North West!

 

[jon0844]

The Northern City Line can take 2 x 3-car 313s. But I doubt they'd want a 6-car fixed formation as it means running these trains all day, every day.

During the day, they can be near empty - but they are VERY busy at peak times and need all the space they can get inside (a 378 won't be good for those travelling the full distance, but it will be to get more people on - albeit standing). I'd actually hope they'd go for a different configuration, perhaps with normal seating in at least one carriage and flip-down seats etc.

Still, for now, there's nothing but constant rumours about this bit becoming part of London Overground. It started out with plans for FCC to work with TfL to simply increase the service frequency (to get the 15 minute services all day, allowing a 'turn up and go' like service) and even that hasn't happened yet (bar the peaks where they're every 20 mins).

 

[tbtc]

send the 313s up to the North West!

I still think there's a chance that the displaced 319s from Thameslink will stay in "Network South East" area (possibly West Anglia) and that the Lancashire Triangle will get older EMUs in the short/medium term.

 

[cle]

Well some new EMUs are definitely required soon to release all the 319s.

350s seem to be the most popular new unit - couldn't they order a big amount of sets, some with higher density seating (as per 319s) and some at a more intercity level of comfort (tables etc....) - maybe the intercity ones as 5 or 6 car units to make up capacity.

 

[jon0844]

I would imagine Thameslink will get something based on the 377s, but hopefully Bombardier will be able to make them work and build them on time.

I'd build them with 2+2 seating throughout too, as with 8 and 12-car train formations and a very regular service it shouldn't need high density seating which is not favourable when the trains aren't full, and restrict room for those standing when they are.

But, what do I know?!

The 319s are supposedly being given a MAJOR overhaul, with disabled toilets, air conditioning and so on - which will, for all intents and purposes, make them seem like brand new trains (maybe they'll also modify the doors to make a more secure seal). If they did the same to the 317s and 321s, they could probably build a pretty decent fleet of EMUs as I believe they're all interchangeable. Bar the cab-ends, and the 317s allowing you to walk from one set to another, they could all be made to look the exact same inside couldn't they?

 

[MCR247]

I would imagine Thameslink will get something based on the 377s, but hopefully Bombardier will be able to make them work and build them on time.

I think this describes the above post

But, what do I know?!

Bombardier, reliable on time?

 

[jopsuk]

I still think there's a chance that the displaced 319s from Thameslink will stay in "Network South East" area (possibly West Anglia) and that the Lancashire Triangle will get older EMUs in the short/medium term.

Really? The 317 fleet isn't much older than the 319 fleet, and apart from the small FCC fleet is all on the WA/Lea Valley as it is- the 379 fleet will only possibly cause a small number to be used on the Great Eastern. I see no sensible reason why 319s would go to the Anglia route.