Overdistance excess

[Mojo]

We've discussed before about how you are not supposed to be able to excess a TOC-only to an Any Permitted, but is it possible to excess a TOC-only ticket overdistance where the only ticket available is a TOC-only for another TOC, or an Any Permitted?

In this example I'd like to know if I can excess the return portion of a Milton Keynes (MKC) - London Terminals (1072) SOR "VirginTrns Only" to a 1072 - Rugby (RUG) SOR "Any Permitted" (Virgin only doesn't exist).

How would one calculate the excess (if at all possible)?

MKC - 1072 = £25.80 "VirginTrns Only"
RUG - 1072 = £109.00 "Any Permitted"
£109.00 - £25.80 / 2 = £41.60

 

[janb]

Personally I would say you couldn't excess that TOC specific ticket to an Any Permitted.

Of course if you were going London Midland from London to Rugby then the single is £40 anyway or £24.90 after 0845. (ie less than the excess you calculated).

If travelled with Virgin as far as MKC, and then changed to London Midland there, then the extra single is only going to be £11.20 or £9.90 depending on time of day.

Of course what you're going to say is you want to go on a Virgin train direct to Rugby before 0926 in the morning (£54.50) so that your question becomes a live issue. As I say I would judge this as falling into the TOC specific to AnyPer trap.

 

[yorkie]

As reported by John @ Home in this topic, East Coast are offering excesses from TOC specific AP tickets to Any Permitted tickets online, and ticket issuers have reported having issued such excesses before.

As for how to calculate it; excesses are a nightmare (yes I know that's a cop out!). I agree it may be better to get a much cheaper ticket by booking separately but as janb says the person who has that ticket will be wanting a through train no doubt!

Interestingly the 7 day season RUG-MKC is £54.80, not a great deal more than this excess would be, and that season ticket plus the MKC-EUS Virgin Only SDR at £25.80 comes to a total of £80.60 and is valid for non-stop trains, yes you save money in just one return trip. This is not the only example where a season ticket plus point to point ticket is cheaper than a through ticket for just one journey, by any means! And do two trips in a week and you're laughing.

In another example I found, a £55.50 Anytime return can be reduced to £31.30 by combining a £12.50 season and a £18.80 Anytime return.

Expect more and more anomalies like this as the TOCs attempt to rip us off (for selected, lucrative flows) more and more by increasing unregulated fares and changing restriction codes. It's pretty bad now and getting worse all the time.

 

[barrykas]

That's probably a query which needs to be directed to ATOC/RSP through the appropriate channels, given the increasing number of TOCs issuing operator specific "walk-up" tickets.

In this case, it's not that much of an issue, as the passenger would be travelling on a VT service anyway. (Well...I suspect London Midland would have something to say about it as they wouldn't have any revenue for the Milton Keynes - London ticket - Ed)

All "The Manual" says is to charge the appropriate Single for the extra journey (or the full Single if there was an "opportunity to buy" before boarding) OR HALF the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Return fare for the through journey (or HALF the difference between the fare paid and the full Return if there was an "opportunity to buy" before boarding) if that's cheaper.

I'll see if I can extract an answer from RSP, given they ultimately set the rules by means of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The rules state that if you hold a TOC specific ticket you must use that TOC or purchase a new ticket, it does not say you can not excess the ticket for travelling over-distance.

The excess should be the cheapest available fare for immediate travel on the chosen service.

EG.

A London Terminals to Milton Keynes 'rte Virgin Trains only' ticket could not be excessed to use London Midland services, however, it CAN be excessed to a London Terminals to Rugby 'rte Any Permitted' ticket because this is an over-distance excess and it is the cheapest available fare for immediate travel.

The question that would remain is, could you use that ticket on London Midland services?

The reason for the excess was over-distance, not changing TOC and the correct fare has been paid. As I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong) London Midland would receive a share of the excess if it normally received a share of the full ticket. So why can't you? In effect, you hold a ticket valid on any train company between London and Rugby.

 

[yorkie]

once a ticket is excessed it becomes that ticket. it is irrelevant what was held originally.

 

[premier01]

once a ticket is excessed it becomes that ticket. it is irrelevant what was held originally.

On the subject of TOC specific tickets is the only available First Open Return from Preston to Manchester a TPE only ticket or valid on any train

 

[janb]

On the subject of TOC specific tickets is the only available First Open Return from Preston to Manchester a TPE only ticket or valid on any train

TPE Only. You are only going to get FC on TPE anyway.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The First Class Anytime Day Single (FDS £13.50) is 'rte Any Permitted', but as noted, only TPE have First class accomodation on the direct route. The ticket would also allow First Class travel between Preston and Wigan North Western (for Northern Rail services From Wigan NW/Wallgate to Manchester) on Virgin Trains.

Whilst Northern Rail do not have First Class accomodation, the First Class Anytime Day Single ticket is valid on their services.

 

[tony_mac]

Just to clarify; the first anytime return at £20.20 is TPE only. This could be a problem if you miss the last transpennine train back from Preston and have to buy a new ticket.

The first anytime day single, at £13.50 is any permitted.

 

[premier01]

Just to clarify; the first anytime return at £20.20 is TPE only. This could be a problem if you miss the last transpennine train back from Preston and have to buy a new ticket.

The first anytime day single, at £13.50 is any permitted.

Is there a FOS available on this journey-is this TPE only.

What about a First Day Return-is that TPE only-it seems that if you want to travel in First Class on a return ticket then you have to travel on TPE-appreciate this is the only TOC that offers First Class but if a Standard Class ticket allows travel on any TOC and paying a premium for First Class restricts this it seems like another joke of inconsistent ticket prices.

 

[Mojo]

Thanks for all the replies; fortunately I didn't need to do this anyway. Why I was asking is because I was doing a journey Birmingham NS to Euston, splitting at Coventry and Milton Keynes. I was intending on travelling back on the 13.43 and was worried incase my appointment ended late I'd have to get on the 14.03 which calls Rugby instead of Milton Keynes; hence my query.

It was alright in the end though as I got back with plenty of time.

 

[clagmonster]

Premier01, there is no first day return for Preston-Manchester. The first day single costs £13.50 and is route any permitted. If you wanted to travel first class in one direction and on Northern in the other direction, my advice would be to purchase the appropriate return ticket, and excess the relevent portion to first class.

 

[premier01]

Premier01, there is no first day return for Preston-Manchester. The first day single costs £13.50 and is route any permitted. If you wanted to travel first class in one direction and on Northern in the other direction, my advice would be to purchase the appropriate return ticket, and excess the relevent portion to first class.

Ok so is there a difference between a a First Day Single and a First Open Single or are Single Tickets only valid on the same day.

How much would excess be if upgrading in one direction only on SDR to Manchester.

Also for clarification would using a FOR on a Northern Trains service not be permitted when a SOR would be valid on any train.

 

[tony_mac]

Ok so is there a difference between a a First Day Single and a First Open Single or are Single Tickets only valid on the same day.

As far as I know, they are really the same thing - and both only valid on the day of purchase.
However, you can usually only buy one or the other, with seemingly no pattern to which it is.

How much would excess be if upgrading in one direction only on SDR to Manchester.

There is no SDR for that route, only a CDR.

I believe that the excess is supposed to the difference between a Standard Anytime Single, and a First Anytime Single - which would be £4 each way. See next post, that isn't correct!

Also for clarification would using a FOR on a Northern Trains service not be permitted when a SOR would be valid on any train.

Strictly, yes, that's correct. Whether a Northern guard would make a fuss, I don't know; he may be persuaded that it would be reasonable to issue a zero-cost excess to an Any Permitted SOR.

 

[clagmonster]

Premier01, the excess fare process is detailed in your thread about the subject:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32205
If you had a cheap day return, the excess would be the difference between the cost of the open return (£15.70) and the cheap day return (£9.60), which comes to £6.10, plus the difference between the first day single (£13.50) and the standard day single (£9.50), which comes to £4, so the total for the excess is £10.10.

 

[premier01]

Premier01, the excess fare process is detailed in your thread about the subject:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32205
If you had a cheap day return, the excess would be the difference between the cost of the open return (£15.70) and the cheap day return (£9.60), which comes to £6.10, plus the difference between the first day single (£13.50) and the standard day single (£9.50), which comes to £4, so the total for the excess is £10.10.

Thanks for the clarification-if an Anytime Return is excessed in one direction then it would be £4-is it correct then that the FOS is an Any Permitted ticket and the FOR is a TPE only ticket-if thats correct there is on logic there.