Overcrowding Solutions?

[HowardGWR]

Clapham jn P9 is just starting to be used again at that time after all the evening rush hour trains dont call because of line capacity issues so you will always get that no matter what the first train to call is. P9 is out of used from 1702 until 1827 so you couldnt have picked a worse train to catch from Clapham jn.

Thanks very much, although of course we didn't 'pick' the train, as it was just the booked connection from the 1742 ex GTW. When you get off a plane after a long journey involving - hire car drop off, then bus, then train, then bus, then plane, and then train to CPJ, it's not very pleasant to endure tube train conditions (and believe me, I feel for the commuters who do it every day).

Yes, we saw all the non-stops whizzing through platform 9 and one is just in awe of the expertise of the operators in getting the traffic through. I suppose my point is that lots of those who stood, were out of it it within a half hour or so, whereas the traveller to Exeter and beyond has a very different prospect before them. I had wondered about a method of sealing the front three cars off for those who have tickets beyond Salisbury. I can see how it could be achieved but any views on that?

 

[northernchris]

It was reported on another forum that Northern lost money on running the extras this weekend despite the huge numbers of passengers travelling. This does highlight that the economics of running once off extras doesn't stand up whatever the loadings.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Northern lost money. As well as the additional trains there were no doubt plenty of staff on overtime to crew these services. There were also lots of delays caused by the volume of passengers so this no doubt cost Northern in fines to Network Rail.

 

[fowler9]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Northern lost money. As well as the additional trains there were no doubt plenty of staff on overtime to crew these services. There were also lots of delays caused by the volume of passengers so this no doubt cost Northern in fines to Network Rail.

No doubt but is a public service. If you only do things to make money we all end up much poorer.

 

[Bald Rick]

It was reported on another forum that Northern lost money on running the extras this weekend despite the huge numbers of passengers travelling. This does highlight that the economics of running once off extras doesn't stand up whatever the loadings.

Similarly Chilteen lost a packet on the extras they ran for the Royal Wedding. Yes, and some of those same extras were those that passengers couldn't board as they were so full.
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No doubt but is a public service. If you only do things to make money we all end up much poorer.

Quite. But then why should the railways operate as a public service everywhere and for any occasion, when no other transport mode does? There are not fleets of A319s sitting around at Luton for the dozen Saturdays when everyone wants to travel. Easyjet put the prices up. Yet it could be argued that providing for an annual family holiday to, say, France is as much a public service as a family weekend trip to, say, the Col de Blubberhouses.

 

[fowler9]

Similarly Chilteen lost a packet on the extras they ran for the Royal Wedding. Yes, and some of those same extras were those that passengers couldn't board as they were so full.
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Quite. But then why should the railways operate as a public service everywhere and for any occasion, when no other transport mode does? There are not fleets of A319s sitting around at Luton for the dozen Saturdays when everyone wants to travel. Easyjet put the prices up. Yet it could be argued that providing for an annual family holiday to, say, France is as much a public service as a family weekend trip to, say, the Col de Blubberhouses.

I'm not saying the additional services should be free. Maybe they should charge a premium to make a profit. At the end of the day though when Liverpool won the European Cup Final in 2005 there weren't Easyjet A319's knocking around, we had several 747's flying out as well as a few other wide bodies. I presume someone worked out to make money from it. We used to get Concorde flying to Liverpool for the Grand National. The fact Northern managed to loose money is a bad reflection on our privatised system.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not saying the additional services should be free. Maybe they should charge a premium to make a profit. At the end of the day though when Liverpool won the European Cup Final in 2005 there weren't Easyjet A319's knocking around, we had several 747's flying out as well as a few other wide bodies. I presume someone worked out to make money from it. We used to get Concorde flying to Liverpool for the Grand National. The fact Northern managed to loose money is a bad reflection on our privatised system.

Northern could easily have made money out of it: if they had been allowed to set a fare the market would bear. Which is precisely what airlines, coach companies, cross channel ferries etc do. That is not a bad reflection on the privatised system. It is a natural outcome of regulated pricing with highly variable demand. Ownership is irrelevant.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Didn't BR used to have fleets of worn out mk 1 carriages and random locos which could be thrown together at a moments notice? The railway today is paranoid about costs as everything must be accounted for, hence the reluctance to run more/longer trains unless absolutely necessary.

Yes they did but those mk1's were expensive to maintain for just a few weekends a year, not to mention the sidings that they rested on. Not only that but all too often the loco's were completely unsuitable for passenger work. Great for the enthusiast but for everyone else let's buy a family car.

 

[HowardGWR]

I think (having looked back to the OP) that there is a difference between chronic daily overcrowding that 455 Driver and I have just discussed, and seasonal same. In the 30s to the 50s, the GWR and SR tried to cater for summer saturday peaks to the SW. The results were impressive but the lines of spare carriages rotting in the extensive sidings for most of the year could not have added to overall profit. In the same way, the continued attempts to build more capacity on the roads to cater for the subsequent road traffic have equally failed, as will be shortly be seen on the A303 and M5, as every yearsout

It's a waste of time. A 'payage' at Andover and Bridgwater would sort a few queues, possibly, but the evidence from Beaune on the converging motorways there to the south of France, on a summer Saturday, tell the same story. It's the school holidays that are the problem - it's madness what we do.

 

[Kite159]

They definitely allowed to travel to Woking on it as it is a proper stop. I have thought for a while that Woking is comparable to Reading, both being the first/last stop from London for long distance services and both being major stations on their routes. I'm not actually surprised of your observation as I thought this might be the reasoning behind the Portsmouth MP a few months ago calling for a non-stop London to Portsmouth service. Can see why it is annoying but I can't see a solution as long as Woking is a scheduled stop, and removing the benefit of being able to take any service on the route for season tickets would start a slippery slope of restrictions and cause even more moans about tickets being overpriced. Some Portsmouth and Alton services in the peaks don't stop at Woking and I think that might be a better idea for more services if it is a major problem.

IIRC the 17:50 service from Waterloo to Yeovil Parkway runs fast to Basingstoke, skipping Woking, good way to stop the Woking commuters taking up seats for commuters from this area, although doesn't stop the Basingstoke commuters piling on for a fast train back to Basingstoke

 

[fowler9]

Northern could easily have made money out of it: if they had been allowed to set a fare the market would bear. Which is precisely what airlines, coach companies, cross channel ferries etc do. That is not a bad reflection on the privatised system. It is a natural outcome of regulated pricing with highly variable demand. Ownership is irrelevant.

Yeah I agree with that mate, but there is obviously something really messed up with the current system of privatisation if Northern can't make money providing those extra services. Like I said we had 747's on lease flying people from Liverpool to Istanbul and the air fares weren't extortionate.

 

[TEW]

They definitely allowed to travel to Woking on it as it is a proper stop. I have thought for a while that Woking is comparable to Reading, both being the first/last stop from London for long distance services and both being major stations on their routes. I'm not actually surprised of your observation as I thought this might be the reasoning behind the Portsmouth MP a few months ago calling for a non-stop London to Portsmouth service. Can see why it is annoying but I can't see a solution as long as Woking is a scheduled stop, and removing the benefit of being able to take any service on the route for season tickets would start a slippery slope of restrictions and cause even more moans about tickets being overpriced. Some Portsmouth and Alton services in the peaks don't stop at Woking and I think that might be a better idea for more services if it is a major problem.

For most the Portsmouth services which don't call at Woking the reason is because they don't run via Woking, instead running via Cobham and avoiding the bottleneck at Woking Junction. If the problem is that all the trains are full up with commuters travelling to Woking and Basingstoke the solution is not removing calls at those stations. That's just going to cause worse overcrowding problems on other services.

 

[Dennis]

A couple of decades ago, BR used to simply price passengers off the railway. Quite a successful policy this was.....

Seriously, a lot of effort has been made to entice passengers onto underused services with advance purchase tickets, so why hasn't any real effort been put into pricing them off the most oversubscribed services. Lets not forget, these are held by advance purchase ticket holders in the form of those with seasons.....yield management and all that.

 

[GodAtum]

Clapham jn P9 is just starting to be used again at that time after all the evening rush hour trains dont call because of line capacity issues so you will always get that no matter what the first train to call is. P9 is out of used from 1702 until 1827 so you couldnt have picked a worse train to catch from Clapham jn.

I feel like a Brazilian football fan watching all those people crowd onto trains on platform 11 during the evening. Sometimes they have to wait 30mins to get on a train!

 

[Moonshot]

A couple of decades ago, BR used to simply price passengers off the railway. Quite a successful policy this was.....

Seriously, a lot of effort has been made to entice passengers onto underused services with advance purchase tickets, so why hasn't any real effort been put into pricing them off the most oversubscribed services. Lets not forget, these are held by advance purchase ticket holders in the form of those with seasons.....yield management and all that.

Season tickets are regulated - but you still make a very valid point. For all the hoo haa about overcrowding etc, the fact remains that on an average day, the UK rail network has a lot of empty seats. However, the very nature of compelled demand in the peak hours makes it very difficult to move that demand to where the network can absorb it.

 

[Mark62]

We always hear that when trains are overcrowded/full and standing that there is no spare stock to add extra trains/ carriages to timetabled services.

This weekend proved that is not true-extras are available.

Some routes can't cope with everyday traffic year round, not just when big events are on.

We need to see more spot hire and loco hauled extras to meet demand all of the time, not just when the world is watching!

Absolutely correct

 

[RailAleFan]

I think platform layout has a part to play in perceived overcrowding - where people end up standing in the vestibules and the train manager has to make an announcement advising passengers that there is plenty of seating further down the train; but I realise there's not a great deal that can be done about that in many cases.

I've often heard this on XC services between Manchester and Birmingham, Manchester being a terminus naturally loads from the rear, but then then the 4/5 car stop board at Stafford P4 is way down the platform causing XC services to load from the rear there also, and again at Wolverhampton where the cramped layout of P4 with the footbridge / lift being at the north end of the platform again skews loading from the rear!

 

[Moonshot]

We always hear that when trains are overcrowded/full and standing that there is no spare stock to add extra trains/ carriages to timetabled services.

This weekend proved that is not true-extras are available.

Some routes can't cope with everyday traffic year round, not just when big events are on.

We need to see more spot hire and loco hauled extras to meet demand all of the time, not just when the world is watching!

It is worth pointing out that in 1996-97, there were 10400 passenger vehicles on the UK network. In 2013-14, there are 12691. an increase of 22%.

At the Rail2020 enquiry, it was pointed out by McNulty that a major piece of work needs doing into how efficiently we use our rail network, both the infrastructure and the rolling stock.

 

[infobleep]

If they can't afford to run more trains, how can they run more trains to the Hampton Court flower show this week? It's known about in advance, just like any other offer SWT put on.

 

[455driver]

If they can't afford to run more trains, how can they run more trains to the Hampton Court flower show this week? It's known about in advance, just like any other offer SWT put on.

They only run those extras during the off peak using the stock that would be sat in Clapham yard or Wimbledon depot.
Just because there is spare stock at 11AM doesnt mean that there would be spare stock at 8AM.

Some people do have a rather simplistic view of things!

 

[daccer]

It is worth pointing out that in 1996-97, there were 10400 passenger vehicles on the UK network. In 2013-14, there are 12691. an increase of 22%.

At the Rail2020 enquiry, it was pointed out by McNulty that a major piece of work needs doing into how efficiently we use our rail network, both the infrastructure and the rolling stock.

The growth in passenger vehicles lags dramatically behind the growth in passenger numbers. However there will undoubtedly be some improvements in efficiency with increased running per vehicle but overcrowding will still icreased over the period. The big question is what happens in the next five years. 3,000 new vehicles are due which will lead to a general cascade. Normally this would lead to a certain number of vehicles being scrapped so diluting the increase. In the face of endemic growth this might not happen (Pacer life-extension etc). With the need for extra peak capacity will we ever see a return to the days of basically life expired stock being retained and just run in the peaks ( a Northampton Cobbler scenario). A battered old train is probably better than no train.

 

[infobleep]

They only run those extras during the off peak using the stock that would be sat in Clapham yard or Wimbledon depot.
Just because there is spare stock at 11AM doesnt mean that there would be spare stock at 8AM.

Some people do have a rather simplistic view of things!

It might be off peak in the direction of London but it's still extra trains being run that are not in the sidings waiting for peak services to start. Some of the services are after 5pm in the direction of London. In the other direction that is the evening peak.

They need people to view these trains even if they are off peak and that must cost money.

 

[455driver]

Some of the services are after 5pm in the direction of London. In the other direction that is the evening peak.

And when the stock gets to London it will pick up its normal working!

 

[infobleep]

And when the stock gets to London it will pick up its normal working!

Even so staff have to work longer hours and that costs money. I'm not anti running extra trains, just wondering how they financially justify it in his case.

 

[455driver]

Some things are not financially viable but they are done for the greater good.

 

[swt_passenger]

It might be off peak in the direction of London but it's still extra trains being run that are not in the sidings waiting for peak services to start. Some of the services are after 5pm in the direction of London. In the other direction that is the evening peak.

They need people to view these trains even if they are off peak and that must cost money.

For something that happens once a year you can alter maintenance requirements, i.e. plan ahead. Doesn't actually mean you can do it all year round...

 

[infobleep]

Some things are not financially viable but they are done for the greater good.

From reading some comments on here I get the impression train companies are not keen on doing such things.

I hope that Stage Coach retain their franchise after the next round of bids. They actually seem keen on helping passengers and dealing with the crowded trains.

 

[455driver]

They do quite well, lets not forget the extra trains run when Acot and Twickenham events are on as well, it is quite a common occurance for extra trains to be run for several different events.

 

[Dave1987]

Train companies do put on extra services or strengthen trains for major events. The FA Cup final for instance and many many more besides.

 

[fowler9]

Northern Rail ran an extra train a short while back when Liverpool played Manchester United in the league cup. Last September I think. I should know really since I was there.

 

[306024]

From reading some comments on here I get the impression train companies are not keen on doing such things.

Don't believe all what you read on here would be my advice then. For example there are three additional trains on the East Suffolk line tomorrow for the annual Dunwich Dynamo cycling event.