Overcrowding Solutions?

[Masbroughlad]

We always hear that when trains are overcrowded/full and standing that there is no spare stock to add extra trains/ carriages to timetabled services.

This weekend proved that is not true-extras are available.

Some routes can't cope with everyday traffic year round, not just when big events are on.

We need to see more spot hire and loco hauled extras to meet demand all of the time, not just when the world is watching!

 

[DJL]

I think it's fair to say that most route have spare stock at weekends but the same routes are generally overcrowded during the week not at weekends

 

[jopsuk]

When the 170s were built Porterbrook had a couple extra built as "spot hire" units. This wasn't lucrative and they were in demand as regular service units.

 

[Drsatan]

I don't know whether this is true or not, but I have heard on this forum that especially for new build fleets, TOCs prefer to use the minimum number of trains necessary to maintain diagrams. This is done to save on maintenance costs as maintenance is charged by mile.

This would explain why there seems to be at least a dozen 450s stabled in Basingstoke sidings and at Northam depot each weekend; surely they can't all be stabled pending examinations?

 

[455driver]

This would explain why there seems to be at least a dozen 450s stabled in Basingstoke sidings and at Northam depot each weekend; surely they can't all be stabled pending examinations?

You forgot all the units stabled in Clapham yard during the day as well, funnily enough all the locations mentioned are completely empty during the weekday peak periods, I wonder why?

 

[Drsatan]

You forgot all the units stabled in Clapham yard during the day as well, funnily enough all the locations mentioned are completely empty during the weekday peak periods, I wonder why?

I take it units stabled there on a monday lunchtime are awaiting usage in the peak period (although you're the expert on these matters)

Nonetheless, I fail to see why *some* weekend services cannot be strengthened, especially if it's one of SWT's periodic £10 offers...

 

[Mugby]

I don't know whether this is true or not, but I have heard on this forum that especially for new build fleets, TOCs prefer to use the minimum number of trains necessary to maintain diagrams. This is done to save on maintenance costs as maintenance is charged by mile.

I think there must be some truth in this. When I travelled from Southport to Manchester on a scorching hot Saturday two years ago, it was standing room only on a single Cl.142. On arrival at Wigan there were plenty of 142s stabled up in the sidings.

Plus the fact that they simply can't be bothered to strengthen, it's too much trouble!

 

[Busaholic]

I think there must be some truth in this. When I travelled from Southport to Manchester on a scorching hot Saturday two years ago, it was standing room only on a single Cl.142. On arrival at Wigan there were plenty of 142s stabled up in the sidings.

Plus the fact that they simply can't be bothered to strengthen, it's too much trouble!

Ah, privatisation, leading to competition, innovation and an inexorable rise in service, so that we'd all be customers rather than mere passengers. Where did it all go wrong?
,

 

[455driver]

I take it units stabled there on a monday lunchtime are awaiting usage in the peak period (although you're the expert on these matters)

Nonetheless, I fail to see why *some* weekend services cannot be strengthened, especially if it's one of SWT's periodic £10 offers...

Which services would you like to strengthen?
Would the extra unit(s) be out all day?
If not how/where are you going to attach/detach them?
How are you going to get it from/to the stabling point?
Will the extra revenue pay for the extra costs involved?

Those £10 days are a major PITA for the frontline staff!
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Ah, privatisation, leading to no competition but lots of money heading out of the railways into the pockets of solicitors, barristers, people sorting out the franchise bids, more regulatory bodies,etc etc etc

Fixed that for ya, I hope you dont mind.

 

[DownSouth]

I take it units stabled there on a monday lunchtime are awaiting usage in the peak period (although you're the expert on these matters)

He's also the expert on sarcastic dismissals of questions he deems stupid. Re-read his post with that in mind and it makes a bit more sense.

(pity the internet is tone deaf)

Nonetheless, I fail to see why *some* weekend services cannot be strengthened, especially if it's one of SWT's periodic £10 offers...

Train companies have got to get the maximum buck for their bang.
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Fixed that for ya, I hope you dont mind.

You would think the most proficient peddler of sarcasm would be able to recognise when others are doing the same and go with that spirit instead of feeling the need to make it so blindingly obvious

 

[Leylandlad]

We always hear that when trains are overcrowded/full and standing that there is no spare stock to add extra trains/ carriages to timetabled services.

This weekend proved that is not true-extras are available.

Some routes can't cope with everyday traffic year round, not just when big events are on.

We need to see more spot hire and loco hauled extras to meet demand all of the time, not just when the world is watching!

Double the fares, simple solution.

Oh...didn't Dodgy Dick try that already on the WCML and passenger numbers still went up :roll:

 

[Muzer]

The 0005 from Waterloo this Saturday night/Sunday morning was formed of two units rather than one, making it much less crowded than usual for the late night services (not sure whether or not I've travelled on this particular one on a Saturday before, though). Is this standard practice now or was there something unusual going on?

 

[hassaanhc]

The 0005 from Waterloo this Saturday night/Sunday morning was formed of two units rather than one, making it much less crowded than usual for the late night services (not sure whether or not I've travelled on this particular one on a Saturday before, though). Is this standard practice now or was there something unusual going on?

Conversely the 2348 Basingstoke stopper was shown as full and standing on their website. There has been Wireless Festival going on in Finsbury Park for the last few days, surely it can't be that? The 0005 Bournemouth and 0105 Southampton Central also called at Wimbledon.

 

[Muzer]

I was coming back from the Monty Python show at the O2, I can't speak for anyone else

It did indeed call at Wimbledon - in fact, it travelled on the down slow from Vauxhall (inclusive) to Woking (exclusive).

 

[hassaanhc]

I was looking at Northern's Twitter feed earlier, mostly praise for the work in adding extra services . There were others going on about "not putting on extra carriages" (a favourite phrase generally it seems) however it was not possible to extend every single service. Whoever was on Twitter duty was on fire with sarcastic or passive-aggressive responses where necessary .
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I was coming back from the Monty Python show at the O2, I can't speak for anyone else

It did indeed call at Wimbledon - in fact, it travelled on the down slow from Vauxhall (inclusive) to Woking (exclusive).

Well, there always seems to be stuff going on on Friday and Saturday nights, and in the summer especially there is more chance of major events taking place

 

[TEW]

I take it units stabled there on a monday lunchtime are awaiting usage in the peak period (although you're the expert on these matters)

Nonetheless, I fail to see why *some* weekend services cannot be strengthened, especially if it's one of SWT's periodic £10 offers...

SWT have just strengthened a load of Saturday services. Alton, Basingstoke and Windsor trains should all now be 8 rather than 4 carriages on Saturdays. On Sundays lots of trains on the mainlines run at full length already.

 

[fowler9]

It does seem to me that this country, despite being apparently wealthier than ever and with the improvements that privatisation has apparently brought can no longer provide a lot of the specials for sporting events etc. that used to exist. I am genuinely interested to know why this can't be done.

 

[DarloRich]

The problem with strengthening weekend trains is often that units are maintained on a mileage basis. Therefore you run as few trains as possible outside of the peak hours to extend the maintenance windows, keep the wear on key parts down and keep the money in your bank account longer.

 

[fowler9]

The problem with strengthening weekend trains is often that units are maintained on a mileage basis. Therefore you run as few trains as possible outside of the peak hours to extend the maintenance windows, keep the wear on key parts down and keep the money in your bank account longer.

Well thats it, it keeps the money in the bank account for longer. If it isn't there it is passed on to the passenger/customer, never the shareholder. Despite the shareholders never having had so much money you have to have a bad service or it will cost you more to get to work.

 

[The Ham]

The problem with strengthening weekend trains is often that units are maintained on a mileage basis. Therefore you run as few trains as possible outside of the peak hours to extend the maintenance windows, keep the wear on key parts down and keep the money in your bank account longer.

Also they would have the extra track access charges, which on a 6ppm basis for a 4 coach train doing 600 miles a day would be an extra £144 per day per set.

Yes it may attract a few more people which may cover all those extra costs, but it would likely only be once the trains were seeing a regular pattern of standing room only before it was considered.

 

[NSEFAN]

Didn't BR used to have fleets of worn out mk 1 carriages and random locos which could be thrown together at a moments notice? The railway today is paranoid about costs as everything must be accounted for, hence the reluctance to run more/longer trains unless absolutely necessary.

 

[Monty]

It does seem to me that this country, despite being apparently wealthier than ever and with the improvements that privatisation has apparently brought can no longer provide a lot of the specials for sporting events etc. that used to exist. I am genuinely interested to know why this can't be done.

Prior to privatisation and nationalisation for that matter, we used to have quite a lot of LHCS sitting around and only used on a 'as required' basis (the Southern Railway were notorious for having coaching stock that was only ever used during the summer months). Nowadays with the increasing passenger volumes coupled to the fact we don't have as much spare staff and stock it's virtually impossible to run specials at short notice or extra 'relief' services.

 

[Clip]

Well thats it, it keeps the money in the bank account for longer. If it isn't there it is passed on to the passenger/customer, never the shareholder. Despite the shareholders never having had so much money you have to have a bad service or it will cost you more to get to work.

I think thats a little bit of an unfair statement. If you cant extend the life between exams by resting up vehicles then you run the risk of a lot of vehicles coming round for their exams a lot quicker and all at the same time too and not having the space and staff to do this it is better to keep them spread out

 

[Parallel]

I think that getting rid of/offering less advance fares from peak time services or notoriously busy services would be an idea. Sure, not very popular if you're someone who books well in advance and saves money, but I don't think it's fair how people that pay sometimes three times the price of an advance fare ticket have to fight to get on a train. Getting rid of advance fares in the morning and the evening around 5-6.30pm should encourage people who want cheaper tickets to travel at a different time, which should mean there are more free seats and space. By all means, retain them for the majority of services, as they ensure trains don't just cart around air.

I think advance fares should be kept though on all services like Edinburgh - Plymouth as well as any generally longer journeys, but for shorter journeys, it could work.

Of course, in an ideal world there'd be enough carriages for anyone to catch whichever service they wanted, but we're discussing reality!

 

[455driver]

Didn't BR used to have fleets of worn out mk 1 carriages and random locos which could be thrown together at a moments notice? The railway today is paranoid about costs as everything must be accounted for, hence the reluctance to run more/longer trains unless absolutely necessary.

Yes they did but when accountants got involved with running the railways all this spare stock suddenly started costing money in maintenance etc for zero accountable benefit, the solution was to get rid of the stock and so save this (imaginary) money. The results were no Summer Saturday extras and no spare stock to be thrown into service at a moments notice.

I can remember the guard on a well loaded cross country service at Plymouth getting onto control that the train would probably not be able to get everyone on from Bristol, end result was a train of mark 1s ran as a control relief about 10 minutes in front of the service train from Bristol to York (I think). All with 2 hours notice, nowadays it takes 3 months plus all the press unveilings when a certain operator starts running a Friday only job. Such is one 'improvements' on the MDTR*!

*- Modern Dynamic Thrusting Railway, copyright some richard cranium from OOC!

 

[HowardGWR]

I think that getting rid of/offering less advance fares from peak time services or notoriously busy services would be an idea. Sure, not very popular if you're someone who books well in advance and saves money, but I don't think it's fair how people that pay sometimes three times the price of an advance fare ticket have to fight to get on a train. Getting rid of advance fares in the morning and the evening around 5-6.30pm should encourage people who want cheaper tickets to travel at a different time, which should mean there are more free seats and space. By all means, retain them for the majority of services, as they ensure trains don't just cart around air.

I think advance fares should be kept though on all services like Edinburgh - Plymouth as well as any generally longer journeys, but for shorter journeys, it could work.

Of course, in an ideal world there'd be enough carriages for anyone to catch whichever service they wanted, but we're discussing reality!

I just wonder thus, what you would think of my trip yesterday from Gatwick to Axminster (on an advance off peak return). We changed of course at Clapham Jcn, onto the 1827 (ex 1820 Waterloo). Platform 9 was bulging with waiting pax hard up against the yellow safety strip, long before the train arrived (commuters mostly), and with three cases, we had a somber prospect, even though we waited at the front end. There was a full train even before the hundreds of Clapham Jcn pax joined it and we were lucky to squeeze into the 159 vestibule. Of course many detrained at Woking (is it an official set down?) but there were also still standing pax beyond Basingstoke.

It seems to me a pity that long distance pax have to endure such privations, as I suspect that shorter distance commuters are used to being rammed in. Unfair comment perhaps because the commuters are paying their fair whack, perhaps more per mile than we did.

As an aside, it did seem to me that CPJ is getting a lot more commuters joining there instead of at WAT and I ask if any of you have an insight of this (something to do with increased use of Overground services perhaps?).

 

[455driver]

He's also the expert on sarcastic dismissals of questions he deems stupid. Re-read his post with that in mind and it makes a bit more sense.

(pity the internet is tone deaf)

On a Saturday, trains are in service from 0500/0600 to 2300/0001 or later, if you want to run longer services then those units would need to be in use for the same amount of time unless you are going to attach/detach them at some other part of the day so my questions are valid even if you want to dismiss them!

If you had ever heard me sing then you would know that the internet is not the only thing which is tone deaf.

Train companies have got to get the maximum buck for their bang.

train Companies run trains to make profit for their shareholders, that is the way it is whether we like it or not, personally I dont but there isnt much we can do about it within the current setup.

You would think the most proficient peddler of sarcasm would be able to recognise when others are doing the same and go with that spirit instead of feeling the need to make it so blindingly obvious

Some people need it spelling out in words of one sillybull* otherwise they get confused, what can I say! :roll:

*- Yes I know it is spelt syllable!
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I just wonder thus, what you would think of my trip yesterday from Gatwick to Axminster (on an advance off peak return). We changed of course at Clapham Jcn, onto the 1827 (ex 1820 Waterloo). Platform 9 was bulging with waiting pax hard up against the yellow safety strip, long before the train arrived (commuters mostly),

Clapham jn P9 is just starting to be used again at that time after all the evening rush hour trains dont call because of line capacity issues so you will always get that no matter what the first train to call is. P9 is out of used from 1702 until 1827 so you couldnt have picked a worse train to catch from Clapham jn.

 

[hassaanhc]

I just wonder thus, what you would think of my trip yesterday from Gatwick to Axminster (on an advance off peak return). We changed of course at Clapham Jcn, onto the 1827 (ex 1820 Waterloo). Platform 9 was bulging with waiting pax hard up against the yellow safety strip, long before the train arrived (commuters mostly), and with three cases, we had a somber prospect, even though we waited at the front end. There was a full train even before the hundreds of Clapham Jcn pax joined it and we were lucky to squeeze into the 159 vestibule. Of course many detrained at Woking (is it an official set down?) but there were also still standing pax beyond Basingstoke.

It seems to me a pity that long distance pax have to endure such privations, as I suspect that shorter distance commuters are used to being rammed in. Unfair comment perhaps because the commuters are paying their fair whack, perhaps more per mile than we did.

As an aside, it did seem to me that CPJ is getting a lot more commuters joining there instead of at WAT and I ask if any of you have an insight of this (something to do with increased use of Overground services perhaps?).

They definitely allowed to travel to Woking on it as it is a proper stop. I have thought for a while that Woking is comparable to Reading, both being the first/last stop from London for long distance services and both being major stations on their routes. I'm not actually surprised of your observation as I thought this might be the reasoning behind the Portsmouth MP a few months ago calling for a non-stop London to Portsmouth service. Can see why it is annoying but I can't see a solution as long as Woking is a scheduled stop, and removing the benefit of being able to take any service on the route for season tickets would start a slippery slope of restrictions and cause even more moans about tickets being overpriced. Some Portsmouth and Alton services in the peaks don't stop at Woking and I think that might be a better idea for more services if it is a major problem.

 

[daccer]

It was reported on another forum that Northern lost money on running the extras this weekend despite the huge numbers of passengers travelling. This does highlight that the economics of running once off extras doesn't stand up whatever the loadings.

 

[Class 170101]

Did they collect the revenue?