Overcrowding Ashford-Brighton service

[evergreenadam]

1047 Eastbourne to Brighton service was full and standing leaving Eastbourne yesterday, people left behind on the platform, no chance of boarding for those at Polegate. The two carriage service is a joke, especially when the gap with the hourly stopper from Eastbourne to Brighton is not evenly spaced.

In the absence of any available diesel stock to strengthen the Ashford-Brighton service and prior to any electrification of the Marshlink line could the hourly Brighton stopping service which starts from Lewes be extended back to Eastbourne to provide more capacity and even out the gaps in the service?

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I noticed this on a couple of Southern DaySave trips, the 2 car 170's aren't enough (sorry, they still are 170's to me!) but they have their hand's tied as they are stretched out as it is, they had an extra one delivered some years ago IIRC (ex-170392 now 171730), and they have the 4 car ones but these are used on the Uckfields.

You could probably change it around, use 4 cars on Ashfords and 2 on Uckfields, but then you are more likely just moving the crowding problem to London instead.

I wonder if it would work better if they did the same pattern as they did in the early/mid 2000's (and before that) which was 377 Brighton to Hastings and diesel unit Hastings to Ashford. It would probably give a chance to provide a pair of 170's to make a 4 car all day on the diesel part then?

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder if it would work better if they did the same pattern as they did in the early/mid 2000's (and before that) which was 377 Brighton to Hastings and diesel unit Hastings to Ashford. It would probably give a chance to provide a pair of 170's to make a 4 car all day on the diesel part then?

Splitting the service was explicitly ruled out by the DfT in the TSGN Stakeholder briefing:

Marshlink Line
4.125 Based on the views of stakeholders, bidders are being asked to retain in
their current form direct services from Ashford International to Brighton
via Hastings on the non-electrified Marshlink Line. As a result, the option
to curtail Ashford services at Hastings or Eastbourne in order to facilitate
greater capacity on the Uckfield line and other Coastway services is not
being pursued.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...a/file/245205/consultation-responses-tsgn.pdf

It has been mentioned in previous discussions about capacity on this route.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

well that's a pants idea from the DafT

 

[GatwickDepress]

It's a good move from the DfT, as the service is well-utilized by passengers wishing to travel between Kent and the Sussex coast.

In the Brighton direction at Hastings, the Marshlink service is followed ten minutes later by the Ore Flyer. Although this service arrives into Brighton 25 minutes later, it is usually formed of a 377.

In the heat of summer, I've experienced station staff at Brighton, Eastbourne, and Bexhill actively asking passengers to use alternative services in the direction of travel due to the dangerous overcrowding.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Hmm sorry if I was head of DfT I'd allow (and probably encourage) full use of 377's on the electric section and do the old Hastings to Ashford. 4 car 377's on the Ore and Hastings (for Ashford connection)

 

[TheJRB]

The best answer to suit everybody would be more 171s which would alleviate crowing problems on both Ashford to Brighton and London to Uckfield. Whilst this is the most obvious answer (shy of electrifying Ore to Ashford which is actually on the cards now), it's not likely to happen as there's a greater demand for new diesel stock elsewhere (although it could be a good follow on from some other order) and finding new stock which meets emission regulations seems to be impossible!

I'll be interested to see what comes of this "battery EMU" idea that Bombardier are testing with the 379, but whether or not this would work with third rail is a matter others more qualified will be able to say.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Hmm sorry if I was head of DfT I'd allow (and probably encourage) full use of 377's on the electric section and do the old Hastings to Ashford. 4 car 377's on the Ore and Hastings (for Ashford connection)

The issue is, nobody wants to change. I've heard that Southern, when conducting their own study of service users, found that the journey time "sweet spot" was under two hours with no changes.

As an added bonus in times of disruption, thanks to the 171s meaning the BTN - AFK service is entirely self-contained, trains won't be diverted or cancelled to form other services. e.g. "that 377 destined to get me to college on time is now running ECS halfway across the network", as happened all the sodding time at Ore!

The current service isn't perfect, but I prefer it to what was before.

 

[williampgwebb]

When I went on the train from Ashford to Brighton yesterday it was heavily overcrowded. Two carriages on the Ashford to Brighton service is not enough. They should have 4 carriages on Ashford to Brighton service instead of 2 carriages on that service. They did not build enough Class 171 4 car DMUs at the time. Improvements should be made on the Ashford to Brighton Service.

 

[yorksrob]

There's no getting away from it, the route needs electrification.

Should have been done a decade ago with 4CIG's running an Ashford - Brighton service.

 

[mister-sparky]

Is there any spare capacity/units to add a 4-car Brighton-Eastbourne shuttle to help things? As this always seems the most crowded section. Or as somebody else said, extend the Lewes shuttle to Ebo.

 

[williampgwebb]

The 2 carriage trains on the Ashford to Brighton Service is not good enough. Its worse in Peak hours. They should put 4 carriage trains on the Ashford to Brighton years ago.

 

[W230]

You can say that again. Oh, you did...

 

[GatwickDepress]

When I went on the train from Ashford to Brighton yesterday it was heavily overcrowded. Two carriages on the Ashford to Brighton service is not enough. They should have 4 carriages on Ashford to Brighton service instead of 2 carriages on that service. They did not build enough Class 171 4 car DMUs at the time. Improvements should be made on the Ashford to Brighton Service.

You should've been on it during the Eastbourne airshow! Standing room only from Ashford. No idea if any four cars were in use during that day though, I only saw 2 cars when I went out.

There's no getting away from it, the route needs electrification.

Should have been done a decade ago with 4CIG's running an Ashford - Brighton service.

Agreed, though if I were a zillionaire I'd fund redoubling and electrification for:
1tph Ashford - Brighton semi-fast 1x377
1tph Hastings - Ashford all shacks 1x313

 

[tsr]

You should've been on it during the Eastbourne airshow! Standing room only from Ashford. No idea if any four cars were in use during that day though, I only saw 2 cars when I went out.

Some services were doubled to 2x 2-coach Class 171s last year. I went on one early in the morning on the Saturday and it was extraordinarily quiet! I understand they were much, much busier later in the day, though, with the service split into workings East & West of Eastbourne to allow for better crowd control, and to minimise delays on both sides of the route if it took more time than usual at Eastbourne to change ends and depart.

I expect that if they doubled the formations this year, they may only have had one or two diagrams on which it was possible. Committing even one extra 171 all the way from Selhurst can be no small task, especially if fleet reliability is causing any issues. The Uckfield line can actually get pretty busy at weekends, but I guess you're aware of that!

 

[ushawk]

Southern know about the overcrowding, but they cannot do anything about it as they do not have the stock, especially during the week.

During the Summer weekdays where possible, either additional 171s have came down from Selhurst where possible and/or the service was split.

Its all well and good saying the service should always be ran with 4-car units, and it probably should - but just where can you get the stock from ? Especially as the demand is such for the service to be direct between AFK and Brighton.

 

[dk1]

I do wonder why regulars travel on this rather than other services on the route west from Eastbourne. I would try to avoid if possible.

 

[tsr]

Southern know about the overcrowding, but they cannot do anything about it as they do not have the stock, especially during the week.

During the Summer weekdays where possible, either additional 171s have came down from Selhurst where possible and/or the service was split.

Its all well and good saying the service should always be ran with 4-car units, and it probably should - but just where can you get the stock from ? Especially as the demand is such for the service to be direct between AFK and Brighton.

I'm not sure if you are replying to me. If so, I appreciate the stock constraints. Obviously, it should be run as a 4-car service much of the time. Whether or not it can be is a different matter, especially when there is a great contrast in traffic levels - early mornings on weekends and late evenings midweek are often not that busy in the area in general, including the Marshlink, per my personal experience! Someone will no doubt try to find justifications for shorter trains by pointing to the less busy times and corresponding waste of stock and fuel. Arguably, late-night trains from London Bridge are more appropriate for lengthening, given many Southern services divert to London Victoria in the evening (e.g. trains via Redhill), and thus there are fewer services running than during the day. Also, weekend FCC trains from London Bridge High Level (such as they exist at present, and such as will be withdrawn at various times soon) are often already extremely busy.

 

[Kite159]

Remember the trains are standard class only, so if a 171 with a first class seated area tips up you can sit in it

Most passengers won't think of checking the timetable to see it's standard only so will stand when there is seats in the little section at the front/rear.

 

[tsr]

Remember the trains are standard class only, so if a 171 with a first class seated area tips up you can sit in it

Most passengers won't think of checking the timetable to see it's standard only so will stand when there is seats in the little section at the front/rear.

I know. But I have seen plenty of "normal" (ie. non-staff/enthusiast) Ashford-Brighton passengers in the First Class area on a number of occasions, and not your stereotypical fare dodgers either. Due to the overcrowding, either nobody much seems to care, or else people have been informed through the grapevine or announcements. One or the other, people do go into First Class, and one can only assume that many have Standard Class tickets!

Unfortunately, you could get caught out if you then assumed the same on the Uckfield Line...

 

[flash]

Every time I have used the service it's empty Ashford to Hastings then full from there on. As I travel Ashford to Eastbourne I am happy..... splitting the service at Hastings would be no benefit to most people, potentially causing the termination of this useful service.

 

[Philip C]

Every time I have used the service it's empty Ashford to Hastings then full from there on. As I travel Ashford to Eastbourne I am happy..... splitting the service at Hastings would be no benefit to most people, potentially causing the termination of this useful service.

Loadings east of Hastings vary greatly between different trains. When scholars are travelling to/from Rye, on Fridays in connection with weekend traffic to/from Camber and when English Language Student parties are having days out are examples of times when trains can be uncomfortably crowded. Rye Market (Thursdays) can be another heavy traffic generator.

The line seems to attract lots of passengers with substantial amounts of luggage. The Holiday Camp traffic to Camber (bus from Rye) can be particularly heavy with this. Sadly connecting traffic to EuroStar at Ashford is much less than might have been hoped.

For major events (Eastbourne Air Show, Rye Bonfire, Brighton Pride being examples) services seem to be cut back to Eastbourne or Hastings with electric stock to the west. Occasionally trains will double up over the Marshes (I seem to remember this happening for the Bonfire in the past).

So whilst loadings can be light there are plenty of trains which are short of capacity east of Hastings. It is to be hoped that electrification will come to the rescue eventually. I was looking at the Southern Region timetable "from 7 May 1973" the other day. Table 20 states "Ashford - Hastings (Service liable to be withdrawn)". It hasn't done that badly!

 

[TheJRB]

Every time I have used the service it's empty Ashford to Hastings then full from there on. As I travel Ashford to Eastbourne I am happy..... splitting the service at Hastings would be no benefit to most people, potentially causing the termination of this useful service.

To say it's empty to Hastings is slightly unfair. Whilst there definitely are times when it's very quiet (like the 08:53 Ashford to Hastings stopper which I've seen pretty empty a couple of times), the two car trains are typically "well used" on that section (i.e. comfortable and exactly what the two car units were designed to run). Ham Street is a reasonably well sized village and Appledore (despite seemingly being a long way away from either civilisation or Appledore itself) seems to do alright for itself. I have a feeling Winchelsea could do better if it was served hourly, but it would of course still suffer with being a little way away from the village. Naturally it's the bit beyond Hastings which causes trouble, not aided by the fact that it's the only fast service between Hastings and Brighton.

I agree with everybody else; four cars all day everyday on the through service would be great. Realistically however, I see it remaining as it is for quite some time to come. The first step will hopefully be to see more four car workings on weekends (good progress towards which we have seen this summer), then (if such rolling stock does become available) four cars all day everyday before the eventual goal of electrification (and hopefully the improved service which that would allow).

I think in an ideal electrified and sufficiently redoubled scenario, there would be two trains an hour on the line: the current Brighton-Ore stopper extended through to Ashford with calls at all stations (perhaps Doleham excepted for most of the day), allowing the Ashford-Brighton express to no longer call at Winchelsea or Three Oaks (and dare I say it, to skip Eastbourne via a reinstated Willingdon chord). Whilst this seems a little bit "pie in the sky" now, it seems a lot more sensible than running Javelins to Hastings or Bexhill in my mind.

 

[ctrh136]

Wasn't there a consultation a few years ago about withdrawing this service between Eastbourne and Brighton in order to free up a 171 for the Uckfield line (probably for the 0834 from UCK which is only 2 coaches)? This would probably have solved most of the issues as a 377 would have taken over the fast Hastings-Brighton service.

 

[JamesRowden]

The Kent Route Specification document shows that there is a project in development that will provide faster journey times during CP5 (by 2019). The Marshlink will be upgraded to '70+mph' which will reduce the 'semi-fast' journey time between Ashford and Hastings from 41 minutes to 35 minutes. Since it is the Rye-Ore single tracked section that it presently by far the slowest part: I think that this project will enable a half hourly service in both directions along that single track section. The service is presently scheduled for 15 minutes along that section. At Rye there is a 2 minute gap between the Ashford service arriving and the Brighton service leaving. If I make a guess that the upgrade will improve the journey time between Ashford and Hastings by 4 minutes and that the service runs half hourly: there will be a 6 minute gap (30 - 15 X 2 - 2 + 4 X 2) at Ore between a Brighton service leaving the single track section and an Ashford service entering it. From what I read in a timetabling rules document, 4 minutes between scheduled services is acceptable. The Kent Route Specification document shows up to 2tph 'AFK to BTN/EBN' in ten years time.

 

[ushawk]

Wasn't there a consultation a few years ago about withdrawing this service between Eastbourne and Brighton in order to free up a 171 for the Uckfield line (probably for the 0834 from UCK which is only 2 coaches)? This would probably have solved most of the issues as a 377 would have taken over the fast Hastings-Brighton service.

There was, it would have been replaced with -

A fast Brighton - Ore service calling at Lewes, Polegate, Eastbourne, Bexhill SLWS and Hastings only.

A stopping Eastbourne - Ashford service calling at all stations.

An additional all stations Eastboune - Brighton service.

This was thrown out as people didnt want the direct service lost, as a result - no changes were made.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn't there a consultation a few years ago about withdrawing this service between Eastbourne and Brighton in order to free up a 171 for the Uckfield line (probably for the 0834 from UCK which is only 2 coaches)? This would probably have solved most of the issues as a 377 would have taken over the fast Hastings-Brighton service.

This was mentioned in the TSGN franchise ITT. Basically the 'stakeholders' do not agree with splitting the service, and DfT have agreed with that. I also quoted a relevant paragraph in the ITT with a link to the source, in post #3 of this thread; but that was a while before you joined the forum so you possibly haven't seen it.

 

[387star]

Uckfield are getting more trains as part of the franchise can't remember marsh link mentioned

 

[Philip C]

This was mentioned in the TSGN franchise ITT. Basically the 'stakeholders' do not agree with splitting the service, and DfT have agreed with that. I also quoted a relevant paragraph in the ITT with a link to the source, in post #3 of this thread; but that was a while before you joined the forum so you possibly haven't seen it.

My recollection was that the planned service changes did leave a complete "dog's dinner" of a timetable. I cannot remember the details now, but did feel that soldiering on with the current timetable was for the better.