Overcrowding and safety

[TGV]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11748499

Discuss.

I can't see a simple solution to this - it's going to be expensive, disruptive and probably prohibitively expensive.

 

[mumrar]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11748499

Discuss.

I can't see a simple solution to this - it's going to be expensive, disruptive and probably prohibitively expensive.

Despite the doom and gloom about overcrowding, it seems we're still a way of having platform staff with gloves physically wedging people in to trains.

 

[Fred26]

I look forward to that day.

 

[rail-britain]

It is strange that the BBC have been covering this same story for the last three days, normally such a story as this appears once to fill a gap

It only goes to show a difference of view between the DfT, ORR, TOCs, ATOC, and the "Unions", plus what the travelling public expect

A few years ago Cross Country conceded that Voyagers did not have enough capacity and realigned the timetables and deployment
It is about time the same methodology was used across the other franchises
West Coast will shortly have additional coaches and trains, but due to "red tape" they won't be able to use them, and this kind of thing will no doubt be highlighted and shown to be a farce

In general new trains replace older trains and that was the point of privitisation (as the then government knew it could not afford them)
The issue now is to increase capacity, and different bodies have different views on this
As things stand it will never be resolved

 

[swt_passenger]

Over crowding will never reduce on all trains, because increasing capacity won't stop people gravitating towards the trains running at the middle of the peak period.

Normally when this story gets going the London Evening Standard chips in with their 'no standing' demands, and the only way that could happen is to limit travel to booked trains only, with all seats reserved.

Funnily enough they don't seem to ever suggest this is done...

 

[Aictos]

This is why the DfT needs to stand back from the micromanaging but state to the franchisees that they need to provide extra capacity on services but if the franchisees decide to take the option to order new trains to provide this capacity then the DfT ensure that the extra rolling stock does meet the need for the extra capacity and that the right rolling stock is used on the right routes.

I see they're used a image of one of FCC's 365s,

 

[LE Greys]

Over crowding will never reduce on all trains, because increasing capacity won't stop people gravitating towards the trains running at the middle of the peak period.

Normally when this story gets going the London Evening Standard chips in with their 'no standing' demands, and the only way that could happen is to limit travel to booked trains only, with all seats reserved.

Funnily enough they don't seem to ever suggest this is done...

I think it's a case of demand always rising to meet capacity. Is it possible that there can never be enough space between Woking and Waterloo? Would a six-track railway with 12-car double-decker trains be enough? Considering all that I hear about traffic conditions on the M3, I doubt it.

To me, the worst failing has to be on diesel-worked lines away from London. Making do with four-car trains when London commuter routes have eight-car trains is surely one of the biggest failings of British Rail (who after all gave us Pacers and Sprinters in the first place). It's also the biggest thing not put right. Unfortunately, Virgin went the same way with the Voyagers. While London tends to get most of the headlines, we need the Bombardier plant going hammer-and-tongs for the next five years to produce enough 172s to catch up. Once that happens, there will be some real progress. The other option would be to electrify everything around Greater Manchester and the West Riding (and various plants going hammer-and-tongs churning out EMUs). This would concentrate the DMUs in a smaller area, allowing them to run eight-car formations in the peaks.

 

[TheBigD]

Normally when this story gets going the London Evening Standard chips in...

There you go...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-in-pens-like-cattle-say-euston-passengers.do

Passengers at Euston say they are being treated like "a herd of cattle" after staff put them in metal pens to prevent a stampede across platforms.

Virgin Rail says it has been forced to introduce the crowd control system on Friday nights to stop riots caused by the sheer volume of travellers.

Passengers must queue in the pens until staff say they can board. Those with reservations are allowed on first, and other travellers must wait until spare seats become available.

Frustrated commuters called it "daft". Jamie Doward, 37, said: "The queues are packed and it's dangerous. There aren't enough trains so we end up queuing even longer for the next one. All the while trains leave with empty spaces in first class - it makes no sense."

Jim Wilson, 35, said: "It's a fiasco. I pay good money for my ticket but we're herded around like a pack of cattle."

Rail managers said they were often faced with more than 800 people trying to board trains built for 500. A Virgin source said: "It had become a free-for-all. You'd get this mad dash, which is just about manageable if everyone is getting a seat. But if there are hundreds not getting on you've got a recipe for public disorder. You'd get people pushing each other trying to get on, it was total survival of the fittest. Anyone who was elderly or disabled were just swept aside, they had no chance. So we decided we had to organise it a different way." The pens, which have been in use for two weeks, have stopped dangerous surges but left angry commuters in long queues. The problem is most acute just after the 7pm off-peak "watershed" when fares get cheaper.

The £10 billion modernisation of the West Coast Main Line, from Euston to Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and Glasgow, means the number of passengers on Fridays has risen by at least 40 per cent over the past year.

Virgin has asked the Department for Transport to let it remove services at quieter times to provide extra seats on Friday nights. It wants to introduce 11-carriage Pendolino trains next year to raise capacity by up to a third. It is even considering reservation-only travel between London and Manchester. A Virgin spokesman said: "We are sure the department will understand the urgency of our crowding problem and will want to help."

A DfT spokesman said: “Virgin Trains, like any other rail operator, is free to introduce extra carriages to cope with demand for their services. They have an incentive to do so, since they are free to keep the profits generated by this additional capacity.

“We know that increasing capacity on the West Coast Main Line is vital, which is why we are introducing 106 new Pendolino carriages onto that line from 2012. Virgin has proposed a number of options for managing capacity until then – whichever one they choose should ensure the best outcome for passengers.

“In the longer term, however, we know that the West Coast Main Line will fill up again which is why we plan to establish a new high speed rail network provide the extra capacity that rail passengers need.”

 

[GodAtum]

There you go...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-in-pens-like-cattle-say-euston-passengers.do

Does that include 1st class passengers?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Does "metal pens" simply refer to the fence partitions on the ramps down to the platforms at Euston?

Nothing really new about this is there...?

 

[furryfeet]

The problem is most acute just after the 7pm off-peak "watershed" when fares get cheaper.

So what is stopping Virgin from easing the restrictions on Savers, so that the passenger load is more evenly spread ? ( I think that there is another thread on subject somewhere )

 

[TheBigD]

So what is stopping Virgin from easing the restrictions on Savers, so that the passenger load is more evenly spread ? ( I think that there is another thread on subject somewhere )

Or, more likely, extend the restrictions through to 8pm.

 

[Aictos]

There you go...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-in-pens-like-cattle-say-euston-passengers.do

A DfT spokesman said: “Virgin Trains, like any other rail operator, is free to introduce extra carriages to cope with demand for their services. They have an incentive to do so, since they are free to keep the profits generated by this additional capacity.

That has got to be sarcasm on the part of the DfT, surely they haven't forgotten it was them who refused to allow SWT to have the proposed 5 car Class 450s or refused FTPE to introduce the Class 185s as 4 cars!

 

[MCR247]

I think it's a case of demand always rising to meet capacity. Is it possible that there can never be enough space between Woking and Waterloo? Would a six-track railway with 12-car double-decker trains be enough? Considering all that I hear about traffic conditions on the M3, I doubt it.

To me, the worst failing has to be on diesel-worked lines away from London. Making do with four-car trains when London commuter routes have eight-car trains is surely one of the biggest failings of British Rail (who after all gave us Pacers and Sprinters in the first place). It's also the biggest thing not put right. Unfortunately, Virgin went the same way with the Voyagers. While London tends to get most of the headlines, we need the Bombardier plant going hammer-and-tongs for the next five years to produce enough 172s to catch up. Once that happens, there will be some real progress. The other option would be to electrify everything around Greater Manchester and the West Riding (and various plants going hammer-and-tongs churning out EMUs). This would concentrate the DMUs in a smaller area, allowing them to run eight-car formations in the peaks.

I really don't think the north needs 8 car trains everywhere, like the SE.

 

[ukrob]

I really don't think the north needs 8 car trains everywhere, like the SE.

No, but lots of routes need four where two is the current norm.

 

[Fincra5]

Tbh SE needs more 12 car trains on peak, it is very noticeable when a 12car service is replaced by a 8car service, its unbarable.

 

[ukrob]

Tbh SE needs more 12 car trains on peak, it is very noticeable when a 12car service is replaced by a 8car service, its unbarable.

Just like when a four car service is replaced by a two car service in the north. But we lose 50% capacity on a route with 2-4 trains per hour, you lose 33% on a route with ten trains per hour (in many cases when you get closer to London).

Lots of places need more capacity, south of Watford is not unique :roll:

The problem is franchises are not long enough for TOCs to invest in stock, and they would not buy stock which sits idle apart from for three hours per day (for the peaks) anway.

 

[87015]

That has got to be sarcasm on the part of the DfT, surely they haven't forgotten it was them who refused to allow SWT to have the proposed 5 car Class 450s or refused FTPE to introduce the Class 185s as 4 cars!

No, they refused to pay for the extra carriages - the government is already subsidising the railways by stupid amounts. First or Stagecoach were free to invest but why would they do anything to reduce shareholder profits, much better to sit on the guaranteed privatisation gravy train and do nothing.

 

[Eng274]

No, they refused to pay for the extra carriages - the government is already subsidising the railways by stupid amounts. First or Stagecoach were free to invest but why would they do anything to reduce shareholder profits, much better to sit on the guaranteed privatisation gravy train and do nothing.

To play the hindsight card, let's say FTPE had bought extra cars for the 185 sets, especially for the services tghat run from York/Sheffield to Manchester and Liverpool. If overcrowding is as horrendous as it has been detailed on other threads, the extra coaches would have paid for themselves a long time ago assuming the 185 had 4 coaches when delivered new in 2006.

Of course this would lead to higher track access charges, but this would only postpone the break-even point. And if they do not retain the trans pennine franchise, the extra coaches can be sold to the new franchisee.

 

[Fincra5]

Just like when a four car service is replaced by a two car service in the north. But we lose 50% capacity on a route with 2-4 trains per hour, you lose 33% on a route with ten trains per hour (in many cases when you get closer to London).

Lots of places need more capacity, south of Watford is not unique :roll:

The problem is franchises are not long enough for TOCs to invest in stock, and they would not buy stock which sits idle apart from for three hours per day (for the peaks) anway.

Thinking of the London Area in general that is much more busy than the majority of networks in the North.

 

[ukrob]

Thinking of the London Area in general that is much more busy than the majority of networks in the North.

Yes - that is why there are longer trains in the London area to start with. Nobody has disputed that.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Mugridge
The problem is most acute just after the 7pm off-peak "watershed" when fares get cheaper.
So what is stopping Virgin from easing the restrictions on Savers, so that the passenger load is more evenly spread ? ( I think that there is another thread on subject somewhere )

Beggin yer pardon, but you've put my name onto something quoted from a post by TheBigD ( post #8 )...

 

[Greenback]

Just like when a four car service is replaced by a two car service in the north. But we lose 50% capacity on a route with 2-4 trains per hour, you lose 33% on a route with ten trains per hour (in many cases when you get closer to London).

Lots of places need more capacity, south of Watford is not unique :roll:

The problem is franchises are not long enough for TOCs to invest in stock, and they would not buy stock which sits idle apart from for three hours per day (for the peaks) anway.

One of the problems with the franchise system...

No, they refused to pay for the extra carriages - the government is already subsidising the railways by stupid amounts. First or Stagecoach were free to invest but why would they do anything to reduce shareholder profits, much better to sit on the guaranteed privatisation gravy train and do nothing.

And another one...

To play the hindsight card, let's say FTPE had bought extra cars for the 185 sets, especially for the services tghat run from York/Sheffield to Manchester and Liverpool. If overcrowding is as horrendous as it has been detailed on other threads, the extra coaches would have paid for themselves a long time ago assuming the 185 had 4 coaches when delivered new in 2006.

Of course this would lead to higher track access charges, but this would only postpone the break-even point. And if they do not retain the trans pennine franchise, the extra coaches can be sold to the new franchisee.

Higher access charges, another disincentive to invest...by the way, it must be difficult to quantify when new coaches reach the break even point. As a simple back of the envelope calculation, I run a two car unit between A dn D calling at B and C. as operator, I know that the train is very busy between B and C, with people standing between C & D. My revenue is x, how do i know how much extra revenue I might gain by rpoviding extra capacity and/or a more frequent service?

I may end up buying an extra carriage for each train but see no significant additional revenue at all, as there is no further demand for that route to be tapped into. Yes, mor epeople have seats, but they are not paying me any extra money! (I'm just trying to be devils advocate and look at things from a purely business point of view).

Alternatively, I might run an extra train, but very few people are happy to travel on that as the departure or arrival times are not so conveneint! Again, I've incurred extra expense but not seen a great increase in revenue!

Actually, my ramblings are developing into an argument that railways should not be run on a prift/loss basis, but on a social basis!

Yes - that is why there are longer trains in the London area to start with. Nobody has disputed that.

Yes, there is no real need for the thread to become another North v South battleground!

 

[northwichcat]

The BBC report refers to London having a 15% carriage shortfall and other cities having up to a 33% carriage shortfall. This means that while London should continue to have the longest trains it shouldn't now be government's priority for extra carriages.

 

[Clip]

On a different aspect of this there was a study a while back that showed packed out passenger trains would be safer to the standing passengers during a crash then one that had just a few standing as these would be flung around the carriage and incur more injury. the others would in a packed train would actually cushion each other..


And that herding thing at euston is similar to what used to happen at Kings X when it got too busy.

 

[northwichcat]

I really don't think the north needs 8 car trains everywhere, like the SE.

The South East doesn't have 8 cars+ on all routes. Not that long ago I did London Bridge-Greenwich and Greenwich-Charing Cross on a Saturday while the DLR out to Greenwich was closed due to engineering works. On the outward journey a doubled up 465 (8 cars) turned up and there was ample room for everyone, on the return a single 465 (4 cars) turned up - it was busy but not overcrowded.

The advantage in the London area almost every station has ticket buying facilities so it's not so much of a revenue problem in joining up non-corridor linked trains as it is in the North. Also in the South East there are more trains offering FC and bigger FC areas meaning that 4 cars in the South East usually has less overall capacity than the 333s in the Leeds area.

The TPE routes and EMT's Liverpool-Norwich certainly could do with all being 4-8 cars.

 

[12CSVT]

Back to the subject of pendolinos at Euston, perhaps the solution would be to compel either Virgin or whoever takes over the West Coast franchise to invest in additional rolling stock (increase the entire fleet to 11 cars or whatever it takes to provide sufficient capacity), and to allow a certain amount of standing passengers on every Friday evening departure.
Quite frankly I don't think it is acceptable to limit the number of passengers to seats available, especially if there are an estimated 800 passengers wishing to travel on every 500 seat train. That would equate to a lot of people not being allowed to travel.

 

[MCR247]

The TPE routes and EMT's Liverpool-Norwich certainly could do with all being 4-8 cars.

I wouldn't say 8 car, maybe a 3 car 158/159 + 2 car 158.

 

[northwichcat]

Back to the subject of pendolinos at Euston, perhaps the solution would be to compel either Virgin or whoever takes over the West Coast franchise to invest in additional rolling stock (increase the entire fleet to 11 cars or whatever it takes to provide sufficient capacity), and to allow a certain amount of standing passengers on every Friday evening departure.
Quite frankly I don't think it is acceptable to limit the number of passengers to seats available, especially if there are an estimated 800 passengers wishing to travel on every 500 seat train. That would equate to a lot of people not being allowed to travel.

I think you'll find on the Manchester and Liverpool to London routes the problem is not a lack of seats, it's the fact people are priced out of travelling on peak trains so they all try to get the first off-peak train at the end of the evening peak period. In fact most Pendolinos doing off peak Manchester services are quite often 75% empty so it should actually be the case that Virgin should forfeit some paths to allow Northern and London Midland to run more stopping services.

London-Glasgow does need to be 11 cars. I don't know enough about passenger flows on Birmingham-London to comment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't say 8 car, maybe a 3 car 158/159 + 2 car 158.

5 cars on Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester expresses could still leave people not being able to board and opting to squeeze on the stopper instead. I once caught an evening North TPE service leaving Liverpool, which was operated by an 8 car 158 and I had to stand until Warrington Central and people were still standing on departure from Manchester.

 

[Flamingo]

"This train is dangerously overcrowded"
"Yes ma'am, you are right, I'll have us stopped at the next station we'll be passing through and remove 100 people. Who do you suggest as the other 99?" (used after leaving Reading one morning on a train that had plenty of space at the country end)

Funnily enough, the passengers who complain to me the train is dangerously overcrowded are never the ones who are sitting down, they are the ones that got on despite being able to see from the platform that the carriage they were squeezing into was jammed.

The ones that really wind me up are the ones that complain the train is overcrowded AFTER I have made an announcement that there are anything between 40 and 100 empty seats in coaches A and B.