Overcrowded service train

[Train wasp]

Hello,

My sister was traveling from Waterloo to Winchester this morning. On arrival at Woking more poeple piled on to this service. After a short time the guard deemed the class 444 over crowded and asked people joining at Woking to leave this service train and wait for the next service train. No one was willing to leave so the drive threaten to remove the unit from service unless poeple were willing to leave and wait for the next service train. Is this a common happening on the network.

Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello,

My sister was traveling from Waterloo to Winchester this morning. On arrival at Woking more poeple piled on to this service. After a short time the guard deemed the class 444 over crowded and asked people joining at Woking to leave this service train and wait for the next service train. No one was willing to leave so the drive threaten to remove the unit from service unless poeple were willing to leave and wait for the next service train. Is this a common happening on the network.

Thanks

Quite common at weekends. Not much you can do about it as a customer unfortunately.

If your sister was delayed by over 60 minutes as a result, she can claim delay compensation from SWT.

(Not sure what you mean by a "service train", but service and train are used somewhat interchangeably in Britain)

 

[David Andrews]

I was on an Edinburgh-Birmingham train on the 2 January with a Megatrain ticket that was severely overcrowded The train manager demanded that anyone without a reservation leave the train so that everyone with cheap advance tickets travelled and many with full price tickets were left behind.

 

[causton]

I was on an Edinburgh-Birmingham train on the 2 January with a Megatrain ticket that was severely overcrowded The train manager demanded that anyone without a reservation leave the train so that everyone with cheap advance tickets travelled and many with full price tickets were left behind.

Just because you have an expensive ticket does not mean you cannot have a reservation. You could have reserved a seat on that train, or you can use any other train... if those people on Advance tickets do not travel on that train, they cannot use any other train and they have to get there somehow!

Thankfully, these days Virgin are proactive and tell people that if they predict some trains will be very busy, if they have Advance tickets, they can travel on a couple of predicted less busy ones, and they sometimes send out messages saying as such.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

No one was willing to leave so the drive threaten to remove the unit from service unless poeple were willing to leave and wait for the next service train.

Who normally has the final say on if a train gets taken out of service for being too overcrowded - the guard, the driver or the TOC's control room? If it had been taken out of service by the driver wouldn't that have then just caused the same problem for the following service but with even more people wanting to get on?

Is the train concerned normally 2x444? At the OP was the train that your sister was on a 2x444 or just a single 444?

 

[Agent_c]

i was on an edinburgh-birmingham train on the 2 january with a megatrain ticket that was severely overcrowded the train manager demanded that anyone without a reservation leave the train so that everyone who was organised could travel as scheduled and those who would not be financially penalised for taking a later train were provided service on a later train.

ftfy.

 

[theironroad]

Hello,

My sister was traveling from Waterloo to Winchester this morning. On arrival at Woking more poeple piled on to this service. After a short time the guard deemed the class 444 over crowded and asked people joining at Woking to leave this service train and wait for the next service train. No one was willing to leave so the drive threaten to remove the unit from service unless poeple were willing to leave and wait for the next service train. Is this a common happening on the network.

Thanks

Not really sure what the guard deemed to be over crowded. People jammed like sardines is regular on many weekday morning services and as long as the doors can be closed and the driver can move the train then the train goes. It's probably not great for anyone, passengers crammed in and staff unable to get through the train and way in excess of the pixie statistics (persons in excess of capacity or something like that). The threat to remove from service would be a pretty hollow threat but probably not really necessary.

 

[74A]

Who normally has the final say on if a train gets taken out of service for being too overcrowded - the guard, the driver or the TOC's control room? If it had been taken out of service by the driver wouldn't that have then just caused the same problem for the following service but with even more people wanting to get on?

Is the train concerned normally 2x444? At the OP was the train that your sister was on a 2x444 or just a single 444?

Problem is there is no definition of a train being too over crowded. Each guard will have a different opinion. Of course if it was DOO then probably wouldn't have been an issue.

 

[boxy321]

I met some friends at the weekend trying to get on a Cross Country train at Coventry to go to Wolverhampton. I have never seen anything like it, even on the London Underground or in Shanghai. There was a slightly delayed 11 coach pendolino waiting at a red light to use the same platform behind it and I assume people were waiting for that but saw that the XC train was going the same way.

The guard was yelling at people to stop pushing and tried to close the doors but these passengers really wanted to get on it for some reason - about 15 at each door!

In the end they got the Virgin New St train and I suggested the tram to Wolves as it's easy and every 5 minutes.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I was on an Edinburgh-Birmingham train on the 2 January with a Megatrain ticket that was severely overcrowded The train manager demanded that anyone without a reservation leave the train so that everyone with cheap advance tickets travelled and many with full price tickets were left behind.

But what *actually* happened in the end? Presumably the train didn't leave with nobody standing and the unreserved coach empty, so how did the TM deal with the problem? Did (s)he simply wait until enough people got off? Sorry, too many questions - not trying to make this sound like one of those rhetorical ranty replies, just curious to know!

 

[Deepgreen]

Not really sure what the guard deemed to be over crowded. People jammed like sardines is regular on many weekday morning services and as long as the doors can be closed and the driver can move the train then the train goes. It's probably not great for anyone, passengers crammed in and staff unable to get through the train and way in excess of the pixie statistics (persons in excess of capacity or something like that). The threat to remove from service would be a pretty hollow threat but probably not really necessary.

I also wonder how much standing room there actually was well away from the doors - people almost never move down properly to allow full use of the space.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Simple problem - people. People are idiots, particularly in packs. No-one wants to be that one person who doesn't get onto a train.

I've heard guards/station staff announcing repeatedly that there is a train following just moments behind that is mostly empty, yet people will still try and cram onto this train to save a couple of minutes. Yet of course if they had allowed the busy train to leave and waited for the next train they would probably have arrived at the same time.

These are the same people who stand in the middle of a platform and crowd onto the packed middle coach, then stand in the vestibules. They are everyone, they are no-one, they are the mob. No amount of announcements or signage will change their behaviour.

These are the people who insist on catching the same train every day, even though they know it will be crammed and complain every day. Rather than accepting it will be busy and going slightly earlier into town, or waiting in town longer before coming home (yes I know not everyone can do that, due to childcare etc. but I'm sure many people could take a slower walk to the station in the evening to get a later, quieter train, for a more comfortable journey. I did for 2 years when I worked in Leeds and it was well worth a 30 minute later home arrival for a seat and relaxed journey).

Careful timetabling will help, but there are only so many trains and paths available and skipping stops is only of benefit to those who start their trip furthest out. Unfortunately the only real way to resolve this issue is with live platform and train management - literally allowing only a certain number of people onto each train at each station (like those motorway junctions with traffic lights). Stopping quieter fast trains at smaller stations reactively if there is a large passenger build-up (afterall, if the slow trains become overcrowded they have slow dispatching and this will hold up fast trains anyway). However, this will require big infrastructure and operational changes and obviously for everyone who lives closer to the city who can now get on a train, someone further out is going to miss theirs.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I was on an Edinburgh-Birmingham train on the 2 January with a Megatrain ticket that was severely overcrowded The train manager demanded that anyone without a reservation leave the train so that everyone with cheap advance tickets travelled and many with full price tickets were left behind.

And DfT paid Arriva £1bn over 9 years for this. Taxpayers' subsidy going towards reduced-rate tickets that could have been sold for full price.

XC really are a shocker of a TOC.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Simple problem - people. People are idiots, particularly in packs. No-one wants to be that one person who doesn't get onto a train.

I've heard guards/station staff announcing repeatedly that there is a train following just moments behind that is mostly empty, yet people will still try and cram onto this train to save a couple of minutes. Yet of course if they had allowed the busy train to leave and waited for the next train they would probably have arrived at the same time.

These are the same people who stand in the middle of a platform and crowd onto the packed middle coach, then stand in the vestibules. They are everyone, they are no-one, they are the mob. No amount of announcements or signage will change their behaviour.

These are the people who insist on catching the same train every day, even though they know it will be crammed and complain every day. Rather than accepting it will be busy and going slightly earlier into town, or waiting in town longer before coming home (yes I know not everyone can do that, due to childcare etc. but I'm sure many people could take a slower walk to the station in the evening to get a later, quieter train, for a more comfortable journey. I did for 2 years when I worked in Leeds and it was well worth a 30 minute later home arrival for a seat and relaxed journey).

Careful timetabling will help, but there are only so many trains and paths available and skipping stops is only of benefit to those who start their trip furthest out. Unfortunately the only real way to resolve this issue is with live platform and train management - literally allowing only a certain number of people onto each train at each station (like those motorway junctions with traffic lights). Stopping quieter fast trains at smaller stations reactively if there is a large passenger build-up (afterall, if the slow trains become overcrowded they have slow dispatching and this will hold up fast trains anyway). However, this will require big infrastructure and operational changes and obviously for everyone who lives closer to the city who can now get on a train, someone further out is going to miss theirs.

I wonder if sometimes it's down to many people using advanced singles or returns or the next train is a peak time train and they might have an off-peak only ticket

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I wonder if sometimes it's down to many people using advanced singles or returns or the next train is a peak time train and they might have an off-peak only ticket

Advance tickets are often limited on the busiest services for this reason - they are priced to get people onto quieter trains.

In most cases the busiest trains are during the peak periods, or the first train of an evening that is off-peak.

 

[sjoh]

And DfT paid Arriva £1bn over 9 years for this. Taxpayers' subsidy going towards reduced-rate tickets that could have been sold for full price.

XC really are a shocker of a TOC.

Could have been a VT west coast service...

 

[Tetchytyke]

And DfT paid Arriva £1bn over 9 years for this. Taxpayers' subsidy going towards reduced-rate tickets that could have been sold for full price.

XC really are a shocker of a TOC.

Megatrain tickets, as a Stagecoach product, are only available on Virgin West Coast, not on Cross Country.

Although how does one define a "full price ticket"? Take Newcastle-Edinburgh for instance. The "full price ticket" off-peak return is £52, XC advance singles are normally about £20 each way. However the walk-up ticket shares revenue with VTEC, about 50/50, so XC actually get more money from the cheaper ticket.

Advance tickets started as a way of filling empty trains, but not any more. They are an important part of revenue maximisation for TOCs, as they often get more money from the "cheaper" ticket than they do from the walk-up fare.

 

[infobleep]

I've noticed that whenever I've been in the last carriage of a train at Surbiton, during the morning peak, there are always people boarding who have to stand.

Are Surbiton commuters more savvy, in that they spread out along the platform, compared to commuters at other stations? I think the platform entrance at Surbiton is halfway along, so it's not as if everyone arrives on the platform near the back coach.

You'd expect the last coach to have some space as everyone piles onto the front coaches.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was on the 18.20 Waterloo to Exeter service this evening. I board that at Clapham Junction at 18.27. I noticed that there were many people on the platform for the front coach. I went for something like coach 2 which wasn't so busy on the platform. After that the platform seemed to get busy again.

When the train pulled in I could see that the front carriage was the one with space to sit in but other carriages already had people standing.

So do the commuters know this to be the case and go to the front, rather than just wishing to be at the front of the train because it's nearest the exit?

A lot of people get off at Woking but I don't know how many are alighting from the front carriage, which from memory isn't near the exit.

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[iantherev]

Could be that they are travelling west of Salisbury so need to be in the front 3 coaches.

 

[Class 170101]

It could also eb a problem of ORCATs - the ticketing allocation system.

Between Coventry and Birmingham New Street stations three operators get a share of the revenue pot.

On some routes XC have been known to sell Advance tickets upto ten minutes before the train with the issues that causes. From what I have seen they may only be a few pounds less than the appropriate day single fare. However an XC only fare means they get all the money compared to the open fare which is shared (in the above case) with two other operators.

 

[deltic]

And DfT paid Arriva £1bn over 9 years for this. Taxpayers' subsidy going towards reduced-rate tickets that could have been sold for full price.

XC really are a shocker of a TOC.

It would have been a Virgin/Stagecoach service on WCML

 

[infobleep]

Could be that they are travelling west of Salisbury so need to be in the front 3 coaches.

Possible but there is Coach 2 and 3. Of course if everyone likes to be in the front coach, as people say is the case, it would explain what they were all at the front.

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[Doctor Fegg]

It would have been a Virgin/Stagecoach service on WCML

You are absolutely right, of course. Mea culpa. It does rather reinforce First/Horizon Trains' point (in their briefly successful franchise bid) that Virgin are getting the yield management wrong - overpriced walk-up fares, underpriced advances - and that's the same issue which I see with XC.

 

[swt_passenger]

Possible but there is Coach 2 and 3. Of course if everyone likes to be in the front coach, as people say is the case, it would explain what they were all at the front.

Don't forget to take into account that the front doors are not opened on SWT 158/159 units, so if everyone waiting was aware of this, and spread themselves out appropriately, it would tend to look as if more people were getting on the back end of coach 1, than both doors of coach 2, etc...

 

[infobleep]

Don't forget to take into account that the front doors are not opened on SWT 158/159 units, so if everyone waiting was aware of this, and spread themselves out appropriately, it would tend to look as if more people were getting on the back end of coach 1, than both doors of coach 2, etc...

OK. That would make sense. I don't often travel on the train.

When experiencing overcrowding I suspect some passengers get annoyed with people trying to get passed them. However these people going passed might actually be people who know they can get a seat further down the train. Of course if everyone standing wen further down the train, they would probably take all the remaining seats up.

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[Wookiee]

Don't forget to take into account that the front doors are not opened on SWT 158/159 units

Why is that?

 

[causton]

Why is that?

So the driver has their own set of doors that are not shared with passengers - presumably to keep a clear evacuation route from the driving cab to the doors. Only SWT do this on their 158s/159s, no other operators AFAIK!

 

[swt_passenger]

So the driver has their own set of doors that are not shared with passengers - presumably to keep a clear evacuation route from the driving cab to the doors. Only SWT do this on their 158s/159s, no other operators AFAIK!

I was told years ago that it was arranged primarily because SWT's 158s and 159s operate over a significant stretch of four track third rail electrified network between Waterloo and Basingstoke, and this is higher risk than a typical two track railway. Any time the driver has to get out to access a signal telephone or whatever, it means he doesn't have to worry about passengers being in the way, or being in a dangerous position with the doors left open if necessary.

 

[D1009]

I was told years ago that it was arranged primarily because SWT's 158s and 159s operate over a significant stretch of four track third rail electrified network between Waterloo and Basingstoke, and this is higher risk than a typical two track railway. Any time the driver has to get out to access a signal telephone or whatever, it means he doesn't have to worry about passengers being in the way, or being in a dangerous position with the doors left open if necessary.

Thanks for sharing that, it's something I've always wondered about, but when you think about crowding out of or into Waterloo and drivers needing to use SPT's, it's bleedin' obvious!

 

[BestWestern]

Who normally has the final say on if a train gets taken out of service for being too overcrowded - the guard, the driver or the TOC's control room? If it had been taken out of service by the driver wouldn't that have then just caused the same problem for the following service but with even more people wanting to get on?

Is the train concerned normally 2x444? At the OP was the train that your sister was on a 2x444 or just a single 444?

If the Guard doesn't dispatch the train, it won't be going. Same for the Driver if it's DOO. Control aren't in a position to demand somebody does something if they have stated that they feel it unsafe.

Generally, if you can close the doors you're good to go. It's difficult to quantify what is 'dangerous' about a packed train. Not ideal, certainly, but not usually dangerous.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was told years ago that it was arranged primarily because SWT's 158s and 159s operate over a significant stretch of four track third rail electrified network between Waterloo and Basingstoke, and this is higher risk than a typical two track railway. Any time the driver has to get out to access a signal telephone or whatever, it means he doesn't have to worry about passengers being in the way, or being in a dangerous position with the doors left open if necessary.

The arrangement existed first on the 442s, I believe. I don't know whether GTR removed this feature.