Overcharged on Oyster due to Southeastern Engineering Works

[phoenix1589]

I can make a journey on Southeastern into Charing Cross, paying with Oyster card at a national rail only fare.

The other weekend, Charing cross was closed due to planned engineering works, with trains terminating at Cannon St. Southeastern website advertise "You may use your ticket on London Underground services at no extra cost" but my Oyster card journey to Cannon St NR and then tube to Embankment but was charged extra for a NR + tube journey rather than NR only.

Southeastern customer service are saying "we don't compensation for engineering works"(not that I claimed delay repay, I wasn't delayed). I even checked in advance via Twitter who said I could claim via their online contact form, but even evidencing this hasn't helped.

I don't know if Southeastern or TfL (as I paid with Oyster) are responsible for the refund. With a paper ticket I'm sure I would have been waved through by underground staff but don't know if the gate line should have been reprogrammed to charge NR only fare making it TfL's 'fault'.

Before I carry on battling the illogical southeastern customer service team, does anyone know who should be responsible for the refund?

Cheers.

 

[robbob700]

As I understand, you are not due any refund. Ticket acceptance only applies to paper tickets. With Oyster, you always pay the price for the route you take.

 

[phoenix1589]

That seems a bit unfair (not that I should be surprised). Which conditions would that come under? If Southeastern have advertised "You may use your ticket on London Underground services at no extra cost" then it's reasonable (again, I know conditions are not always reasonable) to expect an oyster journey to count.

I've also got their Twitter reply saying I could claim, although I'm expecting that to either be "you *can* claim but doesn't mean we'll pay" or "we told you wrong information, it's not our problem our staff told you wrongly".

 

[MikeWh]

As I understand, you are not due any refund. Ticket acceptance only applies to paper tickets. With Oyster, you always pay the price for the route you take.

I'm afraid this is exactly the situation. PAYG is not the same as paper (or ITSO) tickets. There are winners and losers here; if you use an RRB then you will often pay less than you should.

I think the rationale is that they can't change the PAYG system just for one day/weekend and working out who might be due refunds would be too time consuming and prone to errors. If there are long term engineering works (like the London Bridge rebuild) then they do make changes to the PAYG system, but it does end up with some people paying less than they otherwise should.

 

[robbob700]

It is in the Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/oyster-conditions-of-use-on-national-rail-services.pdf

3.21 If, as a result of service disruption or planned engineering works, you use an alternative route for your journey, the amount deducted from your pay as you go balance will be the fare appropriate for the services and zones you actually use. You may be entitled to compensation for any delays according to the provisions of the Train Company’s Passenger Charter. Please contact the relevant Train Company customer relations department for details.

 

[phoenix1589]

Thanks for the replies.

use an RRB then you will often pay less than you should.

What does RRB stand for please? I presume you're referring to the fact that a oyster PAYG fare is usually (always?) cheaper than buying a national rail ticket for the same journey.

It is in the Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/oyster-conditions-of-use-on-national-rail-services.pdf

This is helpful to confirm that TfL aren't responsible.

So it sounds like I'm not entitled to a refund under any conditions of carriage - however that doesn't negate the fact that Southeastern have offered above and beyond the minimum requirements by saying "You may use your ticket on London Underground services at no extra cost".

I note the NR conditions of carriage define a ticket as:

“Ticket” means any physical or electronic document or record which entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network between the stations or within the zones indicated by one or more of the Train Companies. An electronic document or record may consist of (but not be limited to):
a Smartcard (including an Oyster or ITSO card);

 

[bakerstreet]

What does RRB stand for please?

Rail replacement bus

 

[MikeWh]

I note the NR conditions of carriage define a ticket as:

“Ticket” means any physical or electronic document or record which entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network between the stations or within the zones indicated by one or more of the Train Companies. An electronic document or record may consist of (but not be limited to):
a Smartcard (including an Oyster or ITSO card);

Still not definitive. Oyster and ITSO cards can contain a ticket (eg a travelcard season). PAYG is not a ticket, but an authority to travel within the defined area and be charged at the end.

 

[etr221]

Still not definitive. Oyster and ITSO cards can contain a ticket (eg a travelcard season). PAYG is not a ticket, but an authority to travel within the defined area and be charged at the end.

I would say that a 'touched in' (at least) Oyster (or similar) is a "Ticket" within the meaning of the NR COC, as it entitles the holder to 'make a journey ... within zones indicated...' . PAYG is the process by which payment is made.

It comes down to a conflict between CoC 3.21 (quoted above) and South Eastern's published statement "You may use your ticket on London Underground services at no extra cost"

 

[JonathanH]

It comes down to a conflict between CoC 3.21 (quoted above) and South Eastern's published statement "You may use your ticket on London Underground services at no extra cost"

It seems to be all too easy to put that message into engineering work posters without thinking about the ramifications, particularly with Oyster / Contactless becoming more prominent over a wider distance, and potential extension of the 'mixed mode premium' to more journeys across London.

I wonder to what extent the train operating companies truly organise extra validity for (paper) tickets, or just rely on established precedent, and forget that many of their travellers are using Oyster / Contactless.

 

[londonbridge]

As I understand, you are not due any refund. Ticket acceptance only applies to paper tickets. With Oyster, you always pay the price for the route you take.

Yes, it’s always been this way going right back to when PAYG was first accepted on National Rail, I was travelling East Croydon-St Pancras, Thameslink core was shut so I had to go via London Bridge and Northern line, argued as to why I should have to pay the extra for a mixed mode underground journey and was basically told no refund, that’s just how it is.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, it’s always been this way going right back to when PAYG was first accepted on National Rail, I was travelling East Croydon-St Pancras, Thameslink core was shut so I had to go via London Bridge and Northern line, argued as to why I should have to pay the extra for a mixed mode underground journey and was basically told no refund, that’s just how it is.

That is a classic example of the phenomenon, especially with the core shut every Sunday morning until after 9am.

It is just 'how it is' on Oyster / Contactless which is potentially why the messaging needs to change.

 

[Horizon22]

I think what should happen in this instance is that you would have to do some explaining to the London Underground staff at Cannon Street (or Blackfriars as I've had to do it before) & then at Charing Cross during engineering works as it's like "waving you through" on a paper ticket.

The issue of course is that they'd have to take you at your word on this (maybe a screenshot of Southeastern's travel advice?) and you're now inside the network having not tapped in and maybe you get the issue where the LU staff have not been approriately briefed - which might not be Southeastern's fault.

It's a tricky one to resolve.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==

I wonder to what extent the train operating companies truly organise extra validity for (paper) tickets, or just rely on established precedent, and forget that many of their travellers are using Oyster / Contactless.

Someone within the control team calls the invididual operators for ticket acceptance, regardless of whether it's oyster/Contactless/paper/mobile. It is done, at least in service disruption. Engineering works may be a more grey area.

 

[JonathanH]

I think what should happen in this instance is that you would have to do some explaining to the London Underground staff at Cannon Street (or Blackfriars as I've had to do it before) & then at Charing Cross during engineering works as it's like "waving you through" on a paper ticket.

The issue of course is that they'd have to take you at your word on this (maybe a screenshot of Southeastern's travel advice?) and you're now inside the network having not tapped in and maybe you get the issue where the LU staff have not been approriately briefed - which might not be Southeastern's fault.

It's a tricky one to resolve.

Yes, effectively, you would have to ask the barrier staff at Cannon Street and Charing Cross to let you through without touching in. However, that carries the risk of needing both sets of barrier staff to agree, not least because if the first member of barrier staff agrees, and the second doesn't you would end up with an incomplete journey (or paying for a separate zone 1 single instead of the through fare, being even more out of pocket).

Lots of people reach the cap, and for them, it doesn't matter, but it is difficult

 

[Taunton]

I have written here about this before. The issue is with the statement "Tickets will be valid on TfL Underground/Bus/Alternative Services" etc, which is confined it seems to paper tickets, which hardly exist for journeys within London nowadays. It really should be a challenge for the Advertising Standards Authority that the posters are saying something will be free which is then stealthily charged for.

 

[zero]

The tube often make announcements that "tickets will be accepted on buses" when there is disruption (or occasionally engineering without a replacement bus), but they are only referring to paper tickets which are used by something like 0.01% of passengers.

 

[Horizon22]

I have written here about this before. The issue is with the statement "Tickets will be valid on TfL Underground/Bus/Alternative Services" etc, which is confined it seems to paper tickets, which hardly exist for journeys within London nowadays. It really should be a challenge for the Advertising Standards Authority that the posters are saying something will be free which is then stealthily charged for.

I think there's a fundamental issue with this during both engineering works and disruption because, as you say, the vast majority of people (not making cross-London journeys) are using contactless & Oyster. During disruption, there's lots of agreed ticket acceptance which you would hope has been disseminated to the front-line colleagues of the TOC/operator giving the acceptance, but I am a realist and I'm sure there will be some incidences where the staff would plead ignorance and refuse entry.

One annoying option is to try and claim a refund through TfL (in this instance they are the ones who have "overcharged" for a journey that should be given ticket acceptance) if your card is linked, but I couldn't speak for its success. This needs a rethink but I can't think of any obvious solution that doesn't open a can of worms and potentially present a new risk of fare evasion.

The tube often make announcements that "tickets will be accepted on buses" when there is disruption (or occasionally engineering without a replacement bus), but they are only referring to paper tickets which are used by something like 0.01% of passengers.

For planned engineering works, I suppose if you haven't yet started your journey this isn't a concern (unless you have a specific travelcard). For PAYG passengers, it's business as usual.

 

[Snow1964]

As I understand, you are not due any refund. Ticket acceptance only applies to paper tickets. With Oyster, you always pay the price for the route you take.

That might be true, but not the way it is usually phrased on engineering work posters and websites.

Have you ever seen ticket acceptance for selected ticket types on engineering work travel updates.

Possibly worth applying for refund and saying will also contact Advertising Standards Authority if don't pay due to misleading info.

 

[jon81uk]

The tube often make announcements that "tickets will be accepted on buses" when there is disruption (or occasionally engineering without a replacement bus), but they are only referring to paper tickets which are used by something like 0.01% of passengers.

Yep the tickets will be accepted on local buses announcements should be removed now most people use contactless/Oyster

 

[Horizon22]

Yep the tickets will be accepted on local buses announcements should be removed now most people use contactless/Oyster

Why? It's not just for ticketing purposes; it helps people replan their journeys as well by explicitly advertising what alternative routes are available during times of disruption in order to keep people moving.

 

[jon81uk]

Why? It's not just for ticketing purposes; it helps people replan their journeys as well by explicitly advertising what alternative routes are available during times of disruption in order to keep people moving.

Because of situations like the OPs, if you use contactless/Oyster you cannot switch to the bus without paying an additional fare.
Maybe if as you say people are unaware buses exist an announcement of "alternative routes via local buses are available" but that doesn't really help many people either without specifying the bus routes available that go in the same direction the disrupted train/underground/dlr service would have gone.

 

[Taunton]

Someone within the control team calls the individual operators for ticket acceptance, regardless of whether it's oyster/Contactless/paper/mobile. It is done, at least in service disruption. Engineering works may be a more grey area.

I'm afraid I don't have a lot of confidence with that, starting with the occasions (presumably under the same team's control) of broadcasting Good Service when it patently isn't ...

To take the original example, of someone with a train ticket to Charing Cross who is involuntarily diverted by an incident to Cannon Street, assuming they even get out of the station there without the gateline swallowing their ticket, and then attempts to board a number 15 bus onwards to Charing Cross, are all the bus drivers really advised of what is going on and that passengers have been told that "tickets will be accepted"?

 

[miklcct]

I'm afraid I don't have a lot of confidence with that, starting with the occasions (presumably under the same team's control) of broadcasting Good Service when it patently isn't ...

To take the original example, of someone with a train ticket to Charing Cross who is involuntarily diverted by an incident to Cannon Street, assuming they even get out of the station there without the gateline swallowing their ticket, and then attempts to board a number 15 bus onwards to Charing Cross, are all the bus drivers really advised of what is going on and that passengers have been told that "tickets will be accepted"?

Yes, the control room will broadcast to the drivers to accept rail tickets in this case.

 

[phoenix1589]

I had a long chat with a friendly TfL advisor, who know how to do customer service right.

He wasn't aware of any ticket acceptance, but could see there was no benefit for the journey I did rather than going direct to Charing cross and had refunded the extra paid on all journeys.

Doesn't address the underlying issue, I'll still chase Southeastern for the 'correct' claim procedures for their advertised statement.

It really should be a challenge for the Advertising Standards Authority that the posters are saying something will be free which is then stealthily charged for.

I can fill in the ASA form and see what they say. The past engineering works no longer appear online with the wording, but there is a similar message for works next month I can quote.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm afraid I don't have a lot of confidence with that, starting with the occasions (presumably under the same team's control) of broadcasting Good Service when it patently isn't ...

To take the original example, of someone with a train ticket to Charing Cross who is involuntarily diverted by an incident to Cannon Street, assuming they even get out of the station there without the gateline swallowing their ticket, and then attempts to board a number 15 bus onwards to Charing Cross, are all the bus drivers really advised of what is going on and that passengers have been told that "tickets will be accepted"?

Well you can believe what you want I suppose, however that is what happens.

And yes if ticket acceptance is agreed with London Buses, the control can send a broadcast to all drivers to advise of ticket acceptance with the relevant operator. However that is not to say that one diverted train would lead to ticket acceptance being agreed. Alternatively Cannon Street (London Underground station) phone up Cannon Street (National Rail station) and ask "what's going on, we've got X people down here saying they want to go to Charing Cross?".

Southeastern is practically the only TOC in the unique position of having multiple London termini, so they are aware of the issues it can course. As a non-TfL provider they don't do the "Good Service" broadcast anyway, so is not related to the point I was quoting.

I had a long chat with a friendly TfL advisor, who know how to do customer service right.

He wasn't aware of any ticket acceptance, but could see there was no benefit for the journey I did rather than going direct to Charing cross and had refunded the extra paid on all journeys.

Doesn't address the underlying issue, I'll still chase Southeastern for the 'correct' claim procedures for their advertised statement.



I can fill in the ASA form and see what they say. The past engineering works no longer appear online with the wording, but there is a similar message for works next month I can quote.

In some ways this is the "correct" process as Oyster / Contactless is a TfL 'product', and nothing to do with Southeastern. Southeastern couldn't refund you for this and during disruption you'll regularly see replies on their Twitter account directing people to the TfL website. But worth checking to see whether TfL were advised in good time about the ticket acceptance by Southeastern.

 

[Taunton]

Well you can believe what you want I suppose, however that is what happens.

And yes if ticket acceptance is agreed with London Buses, the control can send a broadcast to all drivers to advise of ticket acceptance with the relevant operator. However that is not to say that one diverted train would lead to ticket acceptance being agreed. Alternatively Cannon Street (London Underground station) phone up Cannon Street (National Rail station) and ask "what's going on, we've got X people down here saying they want to go to Charing Cross?".

Well, it's just experience.

I think I wrote before, Lewisham to Canary Wharf, DLR had some blockage advised, and told at Greenwich "tickets accepted on other trains and buses". Most obvious routing thus train to London Bridge and back by Jubilee Line to Canary Wharf. Despite asking (out of interest, really) gateline staff how to avoid being substantially charged for going into Zone 1 on Contactless, none at either London Bridge or Canary Wharf had any idea about the DLR issue at all, or any advice on what to do.

 

[185143]

Well you can believe what you want I suppose, however that is what happens.

And yes if ticket acceptance is agreed with London Buses, the control can send a broadcast to all drivers to advise of ticket acceptance with the relevant operator. However that is not to say that one diverted train would lead to ticket acceptance being agreed. Alternatively Cannon Street (London Underground station) phone up Cannon Street (National Rail station) and ask "what's going on, we've got X people down here saying they want to go to Charing Cross?".

Southeastern is practically the only TOC in the unique position of having multiple London termini, so they are aware of the issues it can course. As a non-TfL provider they don't do the "Good Service" broadcast anyway, so is not related to the point I was quoting.



In some ways this is the "correct" process as Oyster / Contactless is a TfL 'product', and nothing to do with Southeastern. Southeastern couldn't refund you for this and during disruption you'll regularly see replies on their Twitter account directing people to the TfL website. But worth checking to see whether TfL were advised in good time about the ticket acceptance by Southeastern.

I've used a Southern Daysave on the Jubilee Line.

London Bridge to Waterloo when there was disruption on the South Coast, acceptance in place with SWR and LU. Had to explain, but was let through no problem at both ends. Got the impression that the staff at London Bridge, or at least, the person I spoke to didn't know about acceptance but was happy for me to travel but the staff at Waterloo clearly did. Suppose they'll have had people coming over from Victoria.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I've used a Southern Daysave on the Jubilee Line.

London Bridge to Waterloo when there was disruption on the South Coast, acceptance in place with SWR and LU. Had to explain, but was let through no problem at both ends. Got the impression that the staff at London Bridge, or at least, the person I spoke to didn't know about acceptance but was happy for me to travel but the staff at Waterloo clearly did. Suppose they'll have had people coming over from Victoria.

Yes - but this ticket isn't a PAYG/Oyster. Persuading someone who's not properly briefed that there should be some plausible ticket aceptance is not usually the problem; it's getting money back from a PAYG charge when you've had an extra charge made because of a diversion. It's not so easy to wave an Oyster at a ticket gate person and persuade them to let you through without scanning it - physical tickets have their uses!

 

[phoenix1589]

In some ways this is the "correct" process as Oyster / Contactless is a TfL 'product', and nothing to do with Southeastern. Southeastern couldn't refund you for this and during disruption you'll regularly see replies on their Twitter account directing people to the TfL website.

This is only the case if they have agreed with TfL that acceptance includes Oyster PAYG.

If they haven't, and it's their goodwill gesture (incompetence, whatever) then they should give compensation out of their own pocket.

 

[Horizon22]

This is only the case if they have agreed with TfL that acceptance includes Oyster PAYG.

If they haven't, and it's their goodwill gesture (incompetence, whatever) then they should give compensation out of their own pocket.

You stated they advertised “You may use your ticket on London Underground services at no extra cost"”

Oyster/PAYG is your ticket in this situation. It shouldn’t matter. Shouldn’t.