Over-Distance Excess Fares

[premier01]

I am new to this forum so not sure if this is the correct forum for this question:-

Please can the correct process ofr excess fares be posted-specifically I would like to know what the correct process is to excess a ticket when you are travelling beyond theoriginal destination-I have read through many other threads and it seems that this type of excess is valid however very little information on National Rail enquiries etc:-

Original Ticket purchased:-

Anytime Day Single: Newcastle to Preston Friday 14th August £49.30

I wanted to continue to Bamber Bridge which is about 3 miles from Preston. Itravel regulary on Business and some times for leisiure and have previously received excess tickets costing usually about 40p although most conductors just advise that it's OK-fair enough you're travelling on a £390 First Anytime Return when travelling from London to Preston

I also cjecked the difference in price with National Rail and they advised it is £0.00-the cost of an Anytime ticket from Newcastle to Preston is the same as Newcastle to Bamber Bridge-therefore I boarded the 19:20 service and was asked for the ticket by the conductor-I presented the ticket and was told that I must purcahse a new single ticket for Preston to Bamber Bridge which would cost approximately £2.90.

I requested an Over-Distance excess fare and was told that there's no such thing!!

I was told to get off at the next station if I wasn't prepared to buy the new ticket-the conductor then came back and said you can stay on this time but I was incorrect-he was very rude and abrupt and kept shouting me down when I challenged him-even if he is correct this is no way to treat a frequent business traveller-or in fact any passenger!

I know that I was alllowed to make the journey however it cost me over £2 in calls to National Rail and I want to make sure what the correct process is and I will then write a letter of complaint to Northern about this as it isn't acceptable.

 

[glynn80]

Right, to start things off I need to first explain the "National Rail Conditions of Carriage" (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf). This document is the legal contract that all passengers sign up to when purchasing their rail tickets. With regard to purchasing tickets before a passenger boards a train, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 2, requires customers to be in possession of a valid ticket for their journey or other authority to travel before boarding a train. Customers without tickets will be charged the “full Single or Return fares” for the journey they have made or wish to make when there was an opportunity to purchase the ticket before boarding the train.

Because of this requirement, there are two distinct scenarios (each of which has differing excess fare procedures) for the issuance of excess fares onboard trains. The first of these is where there was an “opportunity to buy” before boarding the train". The second is when there was “no opportunity to buy” before boarding the train.

In the first, the FRPP (Staff Fares Manual) states the following on travelling further than your ticket allows:

The Excess Fare to charge where there was “opportunity to buy” before boarding the train

Over-riding (travelling beyond the destination on the ticket)

A customer travelling beyond the destination station on the ticket should be charged a full Single or Return fare for the additional journey. If it is cheaper, an Excess fare for the difference in fare already paid and price of the full Single or Return fare for the journey from their originating station to their destination may be charged.

Railcard holders do not receive discounts.

So in this scenario, the fare charged is the full Single or Return fare (which is what you were charged), or if it is cheaper, an Excess fare for the difference in fare already paid (in your case £49.30) and the full Single fare to Bamber Bridge which would have been the SOR* priced at £77.90 (the difference being £28.60).

*Before anyone claims the SDR fare to Bamber Bridge is the "full Single" fare, the FRPP defines the full Single/Return fare as "the highest priced Single or Return fare", which in this case happened to be the SOR.

In the second scenario, the FRPP slightly differs in its ruling on travelling further than your ticket allows:

The Excess Fare to charge when there was “no opportunity to buy” before boarding the train

Over-riding (travelling beyond the destination on the ticket)

A customer travelling beyond the destination of the ticket will be required to pay the cheapest Single or Return fare available for immediate travel, for the additional journey. Alternatively, if cheaper, the Excess fare for the difference in price between the ticket held and the cheapest Single or Return fare, available for immediate travel, for the complete journey from the originating station to the final destination, may be paid.

In this scenario, you would have been either charged the cheapest Single walk-on fare, which would have been the SDS from Preston to Bamber Bridge at £2.20 (again what you were already charged) or if it was cheaper, an Excess fare for the difference in fare already paid (in your case £49.30) and the cheapest Single fare to Bamber Bridge which would have been the SDS priced also at £49.30, rendering the excess at £0.00.

Now unfortunately for yourself, you boarded at Newcastle, which has a staffed ticket office that is open at all times trains run on the Tyne Valley line to Carlisle. So you had an “opportunity to buy” before boarding the train", which places you into the first scenario category. You chose not to obtain a ticket for the entire journey before you boarded and were charged the correct and appropriate fare (the full Single fare because the excess to the most expensive Single fare was more of a higher cost). I realise it seems a little harsh considering the fare is identical to Bamber Bridge, but those are the rules customers sign up to when they purchase their tickets and they are there to prevent fare evasion. The only thing I can see the guard you encountered has done wrong though, in this occasion, that you may have grounds for a complaint, is that he denied the existence of excess fares. Whether this alone is enough to constitute a complaint, that is up to you but I doubt you will receive anything meaningful from Northern because of it.

 

[premier01]

Thanks for the quick reply to this question. Please can you advise that the reason I was asked to pay for an Anytime Single Ticket from Preston to Bamber Bridge was because I only had an Anytime Single Ticket from Newcastle to Preston and not an Anytime Return-therefore the difference between the original ticket and the Full Single/Return Ticket is greather than the price of the Anytime Single Ticket from Preston to Bamber Bridge-the ticket collector was therefore correct however I suggest that he still wouldn't have followed the correct process if I had the Anytime Return Ticket as he said that theres no such thing as Excess Fares.

I would still think about sending a complaint due to his abrupt attitude and the fact that he was incorrect about Excess Fares however as he was technically correct and did allow me to travel the extra distance without buying the Anytime Single Ticket then I wont take this any further. I know that it seems pedantic however I don't like to see customers having to pay when they are incorrectly charged even if it is less than £5-this has happened to me on several occasions.

In summary if I had sorted this at Preston Station am I correct that I wouldn't have had to pay any excess-it is a technicality but I am happy to accept this as the ticketing system is complex and it is a case of swings and roundabouts with ticket prices.

I guess that best option is to sort any amendments to tickets before boarding the train at the station.

 

[PTF62]

*Before anyone claims the SDR fare to Bamber Bridge is the "full Single" fare, the FRPP defines the full Single/Return fare as "the highest priced Single or Return fare", which in this case happened to be the SOR.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. I can see the point of taking "the highest priced Return fare" if the customer has a return ticket and want to excess it so that it is valid for the return journey, but if a customer has a single and to compare it with the price of the return is illogical.

Since I doubt there is any circumstance anywhere on the UK rail network where a full price single is more expensive than a full price return, if the people who drafted the rules had intended that to apply then instead of saying "the highest priced Single or Return fare", they merely had to say "the highest priced Return fare".

 

[jwos]

I assume you travelled via Carlisle to Preston?

It's an interesting issue this, because had you travelled via Leeds (also a valid route with your ticket, changing at Leeds and Blackburn, rather than Carlisle and Preston) the ticket would have been perfectly valid anyway, because Leeds to Preston trains pass through Bamber Bridge.

Travelling the Carlisle way though - yes, you would either have required a ticket through to Bamber Bridge, because it does entail extra distance to your journey, even though it's the same price, or to go to a booking office (or another conductor anywhere prior to Preston) along the route and request a zero-fare overdistance excess ticket.

Some conductors can tend to be reluctant to issue zero fare excess tickets though, because there's no commission in it for them, and a few probably aren't aware that they can.

 

[premier01]

Yes it was through Carlisle as I prefer this route-usually quicker than via Leeds and better experience on Virgin Trains from Carlisle to Preston.

It is intersting that the FRPP states that the 'price of the full Single or Return fare' should be paid where there was an oppurtunity to buy before boarding the train and that 'the cheapest Single or Return fare' should be paid where there was no oppurtunity to buy before boarding the train.

I am happy to accept that I am in the first category on this occasion-although I only had 5 mins at Preston to sort out the amendments is probably irrelevant-however is it the acse that the 'price of the full Single or Return fare' is the Anytime Return when travelling on a Single ticket-I'm not sure about this which is why I have posted this however it does seem illogical to use the Anytime Return price when it's an Anytime Single that needs to be excessed-I would appreciate clarification about this situation.

The only difference between the FRPP exess process for this type of excess seems to be that if you have a cheaper Single Ticket e.g. Off-Peak Single and you travel further than the original station then the excess should be the difference between the original ticket price and the Anytime Single which would be the highest priced Single Ticket available-this would then need to be cheaper than the new ticket which it probably wouldn't be-interstingly the Off-Peak Fares seem to be more expensive for this journey than the Anytime Tickets.

As suggested the simple solution would be to sort any excesses out at the ticket office before boarding then at least you have a better chance of getting the correct price for the excess ticket-would they have issues a £0.00 price ticket at Preston Station if I requested this-it would probably be easier said than done as I have had several problems with excessing Standard to First Class Tickets at Preston Station-theres another topic for discussion although it all links to the same processes for excess ticket options.

 

[glynn80]

I am happy to accept that I am in the first category on this occasion-although I only had 5 mins at Preston to sort out the amendments is probably irrelevant-however is it the acse that the 'price of the full Single or Return fare' is the Anytime Return when travelling on a Single ticket-I'm not sure about this which is why I have posted this however it does seem illogical to use the Anytime Return price when it's an Anytime Single that needs to be excessed-I would appreciate clarification about this situation.

I do apologise, I have made a slight error in reading the FRPP with regard to the ticket types. I read SOR as SOS (I have no idea why), it is now the case that the OP did indeed hold the highest priced Standard Class single, the SDS. I was not trying to state that customers in anyway should be excessed to the Anytime Return if they are only making a single journey, that would of course be ridiculous.

However looking at the fares there is an FDS (First Anytime Day Single) at £64.60, and technically this is "the highest priced Single fare" for the journey being made. I am unsure whether First Class tickets can be included within the definition or not (especially considering the customer would have recieved none of the benefits of First Class for the majority of the journey), but we may be back to square one again...

Also worth bearing in mind, guards can bypass excess fares altogether (there is no legal entitlement to excess fares) and use Railway Byelaw 18 (In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.), the FRPP states the following on the subject

Note:

Train Company Revenue Protection staff may adopt local instructions that implement Byelaw 18 whereby it becomes an absolute offence to travel without a valid ticket where there was an opportunity to buy/pay prior to the journey or during the journey (pay train routes).

 

[premier01]

That's OK-although I would suggest that if you hold a Standard Ticket then it should be excessed against the highest Standard Ticket-is the Section 18 for Penalty Fare routes-if so I don't think Northern Rail is-also what is the point of excess fares if they are over-written by other rules.

I thought we had this sorted-guess that I will accept this on this occasion but going forward I will make sure that I sort it at the Station where this an obligation to correctly excess the tickets.

I think that he should have accepted that I had paid £50 for a Single Ticket in the first place and allow travel to the next 2 Stations-I could understand if it was a short distance ticket that I originally purchased-ineterstingly I was charged approximately 40p when travelling to Bamber Bridge on an Anytime Return Ticket for Preston to Blackpool and the conductor was more than happy with this-he laughed about having to issue an excess ticket just for 40p-wouldn't it be better if others had the same attitude-where people are deliberately trying to avoid paying then I agree that a tough approach is needed from the train companies.

It should be about good customer service but I get the feeling that they are often out to trip you up to get more revenue and this is not acceptable if they are not following the process.

 

[jwos]

As is the case with excessing a day return to an open ticket, a ticket can only be excessed whilst it is still valid. Once you've reached the destination printed on it, it ceases to be so, therefore you'dve had to do it before arriving at Preston.

Once you were on the train beyond Preston, by dint of this you were technically travelling without any valid ticket at all, and in the eyes of a zealous guard or RPI, you had therefore also elected not to purchase a ticket when you'd previously been presented with an opportunity to (i.e. at Preston station, or prior to that).

As for the rules stating single or return fare, it simply means if you wish to go back, you have the opportunity to buy a return. If you only require a single, that's all you need buy.

 

[glynn80]

As is the case with excessing a day return to an open ticket, a ticket can only be excessed whilst it is still valid. Once you've reached the destination printed on it, it ceases to be so, therefore you'dve had to do it before arriving at Preston.

Is this documented anywhere? I have heard staff quote it many a time, but having access to the FRPP and other retail documents, I have never seen it written down.

 

[jwos]

Yes, it's in FRPP, which refers to the conditions of carriage:

"Excess Fares and National Rail Conditions of Carriage•The contract with the customer
•Changing the contract by paying excess fares
•Excess fares for holders of certain ticket types.

Travel agents must not issue Excess Fares.



The contract with the customer
National Rail Conditions of Carriage specifies conditions under which tickets are issued. Conditions form part of legally binding contracts between customers and Train Companies.

Contract terms include:

· Originating and destination stations (or, in some cases, fares zone);

· Permitted routes;

· Class of accommodation;

· Break of journey;

· Day, time or specific train restrictions.

Evidence of this contract is provided by the issue of tickets.

Back to top
Changing the contract by paying excess fares
Excess fares may be purchased by customers, already in possession of tickets, only in one of three circumstances:

Before the journey starts - at a station
To allow customers holding tickets to change the terms on which their tickets were issued, before travel.

During the journey - at a station or on a train
When customers have been unable to purchase tickets, for their entire journeys, at the originating station.

Before or during a journey - at a station or on a train
When customers have previously purchased tickets which are inappropriate for their journeys, for one of the following reasons:

· Customer wishes to travel, or is already travelling, on a train, at a time of the day or on a day of week with a restricted validity ticket (click here to view more details);

· Customer wishes to travel, or is already travelling between stations shown on their ticket by a route where a higher fare applies (click here to view more details);

· Customer has a ticket for travel in Standard accommodation but wishes to travel, or is already travelling, in First Class (click here to view more details);

· Customer is over-riding (click here to view more details) or deviating from the permitted route for their journey (click here to view more details);

· Customer wishes to break, or has broken their journey with a restricted validity ticket; or terminates short of destination, where a higher fare applies (click here to view more details).

Back to top
Excess fares for holders of certain ticket types.
Special conditions may apply to certain ticket types e.g. Advance tickets and many promotional fares."

 

[glynn80]

Yes, it's in FRPP, which refers to the conditions of carriage:

Cheers!

 

[MKB]

Excess fares for holders of certain ticket types.
Special conditions may apply to certain ticket types e.g. Advance tickets and many promotional fares.

I'm curious to know what they say. Presumably, it's simply to state that you can't excess an Advance, right?