Over 60s - London transport, not a local

[Joe Paxton]

What happens to the Oyster when the railcard expires? Will the discount automatically be removed, and have to be re-applied if the railcard gets renewed?

Yes and yes.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes and yes.

Glad to know that in case I don't decide to renew my railcard next year; I wouldn't like to be accused of trying to defraud TfL.

 

[transmanche]

What happens to the Oyster when the railcard expires? Will the discount automatically be removed, and have to be re-applied if the railcard gets renewed?

Yes.

.

 

[MikeWh]

What happens to the Oyster when the railcard expires? Will the discount automatically be removed, and have to be re-applied if the railcard gets renewed?

Yes, quite simply.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I've had a bus RPI check my railcard more than once now.

 

[monxton]

I've not attempted to trawl through all the regulations (life's too short) but, even in this age, I'd be surprised if it were a requirement to carry the Senior Railcard once it (or, more accurately, its existence) was loaded on to an Oyster, even if you were travelling on a National Rail service.

This from the TFL site (https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/railcards?intcmp=1757):

• Always show your Railcard when buying tickets from a ticket office
• Always carry your Railcard as proof of your discount when travelling
• Don't let anyone else use your Railcard or Oyster card with a Railcard discount

So they say that you do have to carry your railcard. Like everyone else here, I have never been asked for it, though as I would have used it to get to London, I would be carrying it anyway.

 

[Busaholic]

This from the TFL site (https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/railcards?intcmp=1757):

• Always show your Railcard when buying tickets from a ticket office
• Always carry your Railcard as proof of your discount when travelling
• Don't let anyone else use your Railcard or Oyster card with a Railcard discount

So they say that you do have to carry your railcard. Like everyone else here, I have never been asked for it, though as I would have used it to get to London, I would be carrying it anyway.

In 2018 I'm no longer surprised at anything, but I would still query why the railcard should, or would, be demanded to be shown during the course of a bus journey.

 

[Joe Paxton]

In 2018 I'm no longer surprised at anything, but I would still query why the railcard should, or would, be demanded to be shown during the course of a bus journey.

Because the daily cap you may be eligible for (depending on that day's travel patterns) is discounted as a result of having your Senior Railcard associated with your Oyster card.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Though I think, since the last fare change, the gap has closed and there's no difference?

It was previously the case that bus and tram travel capped out at £4.50 (as it does now), unless you had a railcard in which case you were charged for the cheaper z1-2 off-peak "travelcard" cap at £4.25 IIRC. This has no risen to £4.50 so there's no difference

Regardless, the rules are still that once you've linked a railcard that Oyster card is for your use only and you can't share it, and must carry the railcard as proof of ID

 

[Busaholic]

Though I think, since the last fare change, the gap has closed and there's no difference?

It was previously the case that bus and tram travel capped out at £4.50 (as it does now), unless you had a railcard in which case you were charged for the cheaper z1-2 off-peak "travelcard" cap at £4.25 IIRC. This has no risen to £4.50 so there's no difference

Regardless, the rules are still that once you've linked a railcard that Oyster card is for your use only and you can't share it, and must carry the railcard as proof of ID

That's interesting. I really am regretting linking my railcard to my (previously unregistered) Oyster now, for no apparent financial benefit but with the added piquancy of the possibility of being hassled.

 

[Joe Paxton]

That's interesting. I really am regretting linking my railcard to my (previously unregistered) Oyster now, for no apparent financial benefit but with the added piquancy of the possibility of being hassled.

Unless you only travel by bus in London, that's not correct.

The zones 1&2 cap, without the Railcard discount, is £6.80 - with the Railcard it is £4.50 (for travel after 0930 weekdays).

If you hit the zones 1-6 cap then without the Railcard discount it is £12.50, with the Railcard it is £8.25 (for travel after 0930 weekdays).

Adult (non-discounted) Oyster & contactless caps:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/adult-fares-2018.pdf

Railcard-discounted Oyster daily caps:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/railcard-fares-2018.pdf


If you do not hit a cap, then all rail mode (i.e. non bus) PAYG single fares are still discounted with a Railcard loaded on Oyster during off-peak times. (Peak times are for journeys starting weekdays between 0630-0930 and 1600-1900.)

However, TfL and the London TOCs won't be desperately upset if you don't want to link your Railcard to your Oyster and so pay full whack.


FWIW I've never witnessed a London bus RPI asking to see a Railcard for an Oyster set with the discount (nor for that matter with a Railcard-discounted paper Travelcard), but nonetheless it makes sense to me that they do so - if the passenger is abusing the system by using someone else's Oyster with Railcard discount (i.e. they are not the named Railcard holder), then why should it only be inspections on rail modes (Tube, NR etc) that seek to catch this out?

(Of course, if said person also had a Senior Railcard on them, then even if they were not actually the named holder they'd almost certainly get away with it as Senior Railcards do not have photographs or photocards.)

[Edit - typo]

 

[Busaholic]

Unless you only travel by bus in London, that's not correct.

The zones 1&2 cap, without the Railcard discount, is £6.80 - with the Railcard it is £4.50 (for travel after 0930 weekdays).

If you hit the zones 1-6 cap then without the Railcard discount it is £12.50, with the Railcard it is £8.25 (for travel after 0930 weekdays).

Adult (non-discounted) Oyster & contactless caps:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/adult-fares-2018.pdf

Railcard-discounted Oyster daily caps:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/railcard-fares-2018.pdf


If you do not hit a cap, then all rail mode (i.e. non bus) PAYG single fares are still discounted with a Railcard loaded on Oyster during off-peak times. (Peak times are for journeys starting weekdays between 0630-0930 and 1600-1900.)

However, TfL and the London TOCs won't be desperately upset if you don't want to link you're Railcard to your Oyster and so pay full whack.


FWIW I've never witnessed a London bus RPI asking to see a Railcard for an Oyster set with the discount (nor for that matter with a Railcard-discounted paper Travelcard), but nonetheless it makes sense to me that they do so - if the passenger is abusing the system by using someone else's Oyster with Railcard discount (i.e. they are not the named Railcard holder), then why should it only be inspections on rail modes (Tube, NR etc) that seek to catch this out?

(Of course, if said person also had a Senior Railcard on them, then even if they were not actually the named holder they'd almost certainly get away with it as Senior Railcards do not have photographs or photocards.)

Thank you for that full summary. I obviously got the wrong end of the stick from a previous answer. I now won't regret linking my railcard to my Oyster. Aren't fares in London complicated, you could probably write several PhD theses on the subject without covering every permutation!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Thank you for that full summary. I obviously got the wrong end of the stick from a previous answer. I now won't regret linking my railcard to my Oyster. Aren't fares in London complicated, you could probably write several PhD theses on the subject without covering every permutation!

They are indeed - there is some reason and rationale behind the apparent madness, but that's not always particularly evident!

An aside - Network Railcards cannot be loaded on Oyster cards for a discount (probably because the weekday-only £13 minimum fare is too complicated for Oyster, though the Network Railcard being a voluntary scheme for the TOCs might also have something to do with it). So at weekends a London-dwelling Network Railcard holder who is planning on travelling around the metropolis a bit might do well to consider whether they're better off buying a Railcard-discounted zones 1-6 Day Travelcard at £8.30, or stick to using Oyster or contactless (the 'decision point' is between a z1-3 daily cap at £8.00, and a z1-4 daily cap at £9.80). Of course you don't always know where the day will take you before it happens!

 

[rebmcr]

Aren't fares in London complicated, you could probably write several PhD theses on the subject without covering every permutation!

Or at least a website.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Of course you don't always know where the day will take you before it happens!

This is what I hate most about travelling around un-London. More than once in Manchester I've bought a day single operator bus ticket and then later discovered I'll need to go somewhere only served by another operator; or bought a bus and tram ticket and then needed a train journey; or... etc etc

Plenty of days I've bought bus singles totalling just under the cost of day bus ticket; and then needed to make yet another journey

Plenty of times I've bought a ticket covering more than I need, too, and ended up wasting some of its value

Oyster is utterly brilliant.

Or at least a website.

Or just don't worry/think about it! Set up auto-topup, link your railcard if you've got one (I keep my Oyster card and railcard together in the same plastic wallet, despite living in the East Midlands nowadays - it's hardly big or heavy!), and just let the system figure it all out for you! Couldn't be simpler!

 

[Wirewiper]

I'll also be contentious, and say that if boarding a New Routemaster bus (so-called) you may use all three entrances i.e. you can by-pass the driver: confirmed on two occasions by revenue inspectors.

That's interesting, because my understanding is that if you do not have an Oyster Card or contactless bank card that you can touch on a reader, you are supposed to board at the front and show your permit to travel (e.g. ENCTS pass, or paper travelcard) to the driver.

Personally I think it should be proper open boarding on New Routemasters, as with the bendybuses, with only those requiring a fare to be debited from their card touching in.

 

[Joe Paxton]

That's interesting, because my understanding is that if you do not have an Oyster Card or contactless bank card that you can touch on a reader, you are supposed to board at the front and show your permit to travel (e.g. ENCTS pass, or paper travelcard) to the driver.

UIVMM there's no such requirement.

The driver of a 'New Routemaster' (LT type) bus doesn't have any ticket checking duties apart from receiving the driver's half of a Bus Saver ticket from any passengers who are still using them (they haven't been sold for several years but remain valid for travel, for the time being at least.).

Functionally, from a ticketing perspective, they are the same as the bendy buses were.

 

[Wirewiper]

UIVMM there's no such requirement.

The driver of a 'New Routemaster' (LT type) bus doesn't have any ticket checking duties apart from receiving the driver's half of a Bus Saver ticket from any passengers who are still using them (they haven't been sold for several years but remain valid for travel, for the time being at least.).

Functionally, from a ticketing perspective, they are the same as the bendy buses were.

In that case, am I not required to touch in if my Oyster Card is loaded with a valid bus pass or travelcard?

 

[Joe Paxton]

In that case, am I not required to touch in if my Oyster Card is loaded with a valid bus pass or travelcard?

The Oyster conditions say you're supposed to, but you're not going to get a PF if you haven't touched-in as you have a valid ticket. (An RPI that inspects your ticket might say you should touch your Oyster in.)

 

[Leisurefirst]

This from the TFL site (https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/railcards?intcmp=1757):

• Always show your Railcard when buying tickets from a ticket office
• Always carry your Railcard as proof of your discount when travelling
• Don't let anyone else use your Railcard or Oyster card with a Railcard discount

So they say that you do have to carry your railcard. Like everyone else here, I have never been asked for it, though as I would have used it to get to London, I would be carrying it anyway.

IIRC I've been asked on London Overground.
I have a Gold Card which I used to keep separately from my Oyster PAYG but now tend to put the two in the same wallet when I know I'm going to use the PAYG.
(The other week I made a PAYG journey and was about to touch in for the return leg and thought I'd left my Gold Card in another jacket but touched in anyway and that was such a long 20 minutes plus of sweating that I was going to get a check and feeling guilty...it turned out later I had it in my bag all along...)

 

[Bletchleyite]

UIVMM there's no such requirement.

I thought there was as well, but it's honoured in the breach.

 

[PeterC]

UIVMM there's no such requirement.

The driver of a 'New Routemaster' (LT type) bus doesn't have any ticket checking duties apart from receiving the driver's half of a Bus Saver ticket from any passengers who are still using them (they haven't been sold for several years but remain valid for travel, for the time being at least.).

Functionally, from a ticketing perspective, they are the same as the bendy buses were.

The TfL website says:

If you're from outside London and have a bus pass issued by another English council, you can use it, at any time, to travel free on buses displaying the red roundel. You should show your pass to the driver; at the moment they can't be read by the yellow card readers.

 

[Busaholic]

The TfL website says:

With respect, that is a generalisation. Words to that effect would have been on the TfL website in artic days, too. Is anyone seriously suggesting that if you board an LT other than by the front door and are using a ENCTS pass you have to make your way along the bus to the driver, who by this time is driving rather than stationary, and get his/her attention by waving your pass at them? I can imagine most drivers' response!!