Outrageous Infrastructure Proposals

[Searle]

After reading through an old RAIL magazine (from October 2010), there's a letter in that says we should rip up the whole of the M1 and M6 and create HS2 over that Spent a good five minutes chuckling at the hilarity of all the road user's reaction if that got announced by the government!

What's the most outrageous infrastructure project that you've ever heard about/thought up/read about?

 

[swt_passenger]

After reading through an old RAIL magazine (from October 2010), there's a letter in that says we should rip up the whole of the M1 and M6 and create HS2 over that Spent a good five minutes chuckling at the hilarity of all the road user's reaction if that got announced by the government!

What's the most outrageous infrastructure project that you've ever heard about/thought up/read about?

The opposite idea really. The infamous Paul Withrington (of Transport Watch, lately an objector to Chiltern's Oxford project) came up with a plan to remove the tracks from all the major rail termini in London, and rebuild the routes as dedicated coach routes, because he believes coaches can carry more people than trains...

 

[Ironside]

The transatlantic vacuum maglev proposal. A vacuum tube under the atlantic, London to New York at up to 10,000 mph, so journey time about an hour.

 

[3141]

The opposite idea really. The infamous Paul Withrington (of Transport Watch, lately an objector to Chiltern's Oxford project) came up with a plan to remove the tracks from all the major rail termini in London, and rebuild the routes as dedicated coach routes, because he believes coaches can carry more people than trains...

Interestingly, that idea has been around for nearly 50 years and probably longer. I remember a letter in The Times in 1965 from a professor at Reading University. He compared two peak-hours trains per hour from Paddington to a specified destination, each having room for 800 passengers but with many of them standing, with 40-seater coaches running at 90-second intervals, which could provide 800 seats within each half-hour period.

He didn’t explain how these coaches would fit in with the many other coaches that would be necessary for all the destinations served by trains from Paddington, or how passengers would be organised to board all these coaches during their brief stops at the station, or how those alighting would get off in time, or how the reconstruction of the station and the routes to and from it would be organised, or how long the changeover would take and how thousands of passengers would get to work every day while it was happening.

But such schemes are not directly relevant to the subject of this thread. One that is more relevant is the Kearney High-Speed railway, a kind of monorail which its promoter suggested could be built as a tube railway in London. On departure from each station the line would drop at a 1 in 7 gradient to help the single car accelerate to 60 mph, before being sharply slowed on the steep upward gradient to the next station, which might be less than a mile away. It would certainly have been exciting.

Maybe I should also suggest HS2, before someone else does.

 

[Bald Rick]

Bml2 !

 

[HSTEd]

Why my own proposal!

A mesh of Shinkansen style high speed rail lines in all directions, with 90% of the country's population within 30km of a station.

 

[Ironside]

The Breitspurbahn. A Nazi plan to have a very broad guage, 3 or 4 m! Double level with unparalleled luxury including swimming pools.

 

[AndyLandy]

Definitely one of my own!

Do away with Euston, Paddington, Liverpool Street and possibly Marylebone stations. Completely rebuild Kings Cross/St. Pancras as a giant multi-level terminus for all Intercity services (along the lines of Berlin Hauptbahnhof)

 

[David Goddard]

Remember the original plans for St Pancras involved a low level through station serving Eurostar (enabling through running from the North) and Thameslink trains.

 

[L&Y Robert]

There was a propsal once for a broad guage line linking Moscow and Pekin. Not sure what the proposed rail guage was, but 3m (10 ft.) comes to mind.
Then a friend and neighbour of mine has this idea that the Channel Tunnel loading guage should be extended north to Manchester, Leeds and so on, and on to Scotland, enabling fat double decker trains to run. He talks of it as if its a serious proposal. P'raps it is!

 

[jopsuk]

Definitely one of my own!

Do away with Euston, Paddington, Liverpool Street and possibly Marylebone stations. Completely rebuild Kings Cross/St. Pancras as a giant multi-level terminus for all Intercity services (along the lines of Berlin Hauptbahnhof)

Ooh good plan. With some tunnels, could also bring in the Weymouth and Exeter services from Waterloo... maybe Brighton fast services as well.

 

[HSTEd]

There is no particular reason to not extend the Channel Tunnel loading gauge further north, it is not extraordinarily large by rail standards. (Smaller than AAR Plate H).

But you would have to build a new freight line along that corridor which would be too expensive.

 

[PHILIPE]

The Beeching Report and later the Serpell Report

 

[D365]

Ooh good plan. With some tunnels, could also bring in the Weymouth and Exeter services from Waterloo... maybe Brighton fast services as well.

Through lines parallel to Thameslink, replace every terminus with a through station at Kings Cross/St. Pancras and perhaps another south of the Thames

There is no particular reason to not extend the Channel Tunnel loading gauge further north, it is not extraordinarily large by rail standards. (Smaller than AAR Plate H).

But you would have to build a new freight line along that corridor which would be too expensive.

Why not just go for Berne Gauge, unless you want to enlarge that at the same time

 

[David Barrett]

The opposite idea really. The infamous Paul Withrington (of Transport Watch, lately an objector to Chiltern's Oxford project) came up with a plan to remove the tracks from all the major rail termini in London, and rebuild the routes as dedicated coach routes, because he believes coaches can carry more people than trains...

Going back to the early 1980s turning the Chiltern Line into a busway was a real danger. I was employed in the bus industry at the time and their contribution to this was a wooden replica of the profile of Lords Tunnel erected in the garage at Maidstone (if my memory is correct). Two double deck vehicles and two of the most experienced drivers (their words, not mine; I prefer daft as a description) who were instructed to aim at the hole in the wood to see what two buses passing each other with around nine inches clearance would feel like. Well they did it and, with a shallowness typical of the industry whose management beleived in the mantra that anything rail could do bus could do better, claimed proof of the integrity of the concept. .

 

[HSTEd]

Why not just go for Berne Gauge, unless you want to enlarge that at the same time

Berne Gauge is too small.

20'3" vertical clearance is required (which is a couple of feet higher than the Chunnel gauge but should fit in the tunnel if it is refitted with a contact rail in future, atleast for narrower stock than the Shuttles - like container transports), that is the highest clearance considered practical for stability reasons when using standard gauge.

It also allows double stack high cube containers.

 

[jopsuk]

Daft plan? Go on then:

Rebuild all the lines into London subsurface from some distance out.

Define a "Metro" limit. Roughly:
LTS: Tilbury and Basildon
GE: Shenfield
WA: Chingford, Harlow Town, Hertford East, Enfield Town
GE: Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City
MML: St Albans
WCML: Hemel Hempstead (and St Albans Abbey)
Chiltern: High Wycombe (and Amersham)
GWML: Maidenhead, Greenford, Windsor
South Western lines: Hampton Court, Dorking, Shepperton, Chessington South, Woking, Guildford both ways, Windsor*, Weybridge, Kingston and Hounslow loops.
South Central lines: Horsham, Guildford, Tattenham Corner, Caterham, Beckenham Junction, Sutton Loop, outer South London Line
South Eastern lines: Hayes, Sevenoaks, Gillingham, Bromley North.

All to be paired up and connected through. All subsurface, dedicated tracks. Interchange stations at all limits. However, see part two.

So, that. Plus:

Reengineer all LU lines. Subsurface and tube. To be able to take 200m long singledeck euro-width and height AC OHL units. As would all lines mentioned above. Where appropriate, lines mentioned above to be merged into LU lines rather than new tunnels. Circle to be a pair of grade separated lines with no conflict. All busy junctions grade separated.

All platforms to be straight, with step-free access and platform edge doors throughout

Busiest London Bus routes to be turned into subsurface trams or elevated light rail, connected to either the Croydon Tramlink or DLR.

I realise that subsurface trams would be tricky. Well yes. No-one said this was to be easy.

Similar schemes for Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Nottingham, Newcastle/Sunderland, Glasgow, Edinburgh.

*through to GWML via tunnel

 

[Starmill]

Underways.

That, and VacTrains. Though the general concept will probably one day be viable, I think we're some years off a transatlantic tunnel just yet...

 

[jopsuk]

Forgot to mention- for simplicity I'd simply brand the Metro network outlined above as "London Underground".

Next up would be the wider London commuter network. Roughly the NSE area, but I'd include Peterborough as "proper" part of the network (it's outside the Network Card boundary at the moment), also Norwich and all East Anglian branch lines.

Lines to be seperated from ECML, MML, WCML, Chiltern Mainline, GWML long distance services.

All lines to be European GC+ guage to allow full sized double deck coaching stock, with 25kV OHL

Lines to be underground to LU outer interhchanges, then buried or elevated through all towns. Railways, useful as they are, are often a barrier through communities.

No level crossings at all.

Standard design of DD stock on all routes, but in varients- through corridor connected in 80m units for versions up to 110mph, aerodynamic longer units for 125-140mph routes. 20, 40 and 60m (still DD) units for branchlines.

On the Mainlines, outer terminus to be interhcnage with long distance services, also with "Regional Railways" type services.

Other bits: London Orbital Freight Railway to remove through-freight from London; distribute between domestic mainlines, North Sea and Channel ports, Channel Tunnel. GC+ 25kV

 

[WatcherZero]

In 1855 there was a proposal to build a covered promenade called The Great Victorian Way ala Crystal palace in a circle linking up all the London rail termini that would provide accomadation, retail, coach routes, pedestrian routes and a atmospheric train line.

Actual route ended up pretty much as the Circle Line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Victorian_Way

Bill before Parliament and almost built until funds had to be diverted to build Londons Sewers after the Great Stink of 1858

 

[Antman]

The idea of ripping up parts of Croydon Tramlink, and relaying the tracks on street, and having an alternative Brighton to London line going off at South Croydon and then via Elmers End and the Mid Kent Line to Lewisham, although where it would go from there..................???????

 

[AndyLandy]

I've got one!

How's this for outrageous?

We spend vast sums of money on designing a new bi-modal 140mph Intercity train to replace all the HST and IC225 sets on the railway.

 

[David Barrett]

I've got one!

How's this for outrageous?

We spend vast sums of money on designing a new bi-modal 140mph Intercity train to replace all the HST and IC225 sets on the railway.

It certianly would be an outrage if, like the infrastructure proper, they don't move and become some of the most expensive waiting rooms ever built!

 

[RichmondCommu]

My ludicrous plan would be to build new low level platforms at Birmingham New Street for HS2 services. And to allow double deck trains to run on every line into central London from the south.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've got one!

How's this for outrageous?

We spend vast sums of money on designing a new bi-modal 140mph Intercity train to replace all the HST and IC225 sets on the railway.

Doesn't sound too bad to me. I reckon with some thought you could come up with something more fanciful.

 

[southern442]

One of my plans is more than outrageous.

Build a four track main line from lands end to cape wrath with hubs at Birmingham central (interchange with new st and moor st and possibly curzon street too), Sheffield parkway, Leeds, Edinburgh, and London Piccadilly circus, with an elevated "London link" with new London terminals at st Thomas and Westminster. The train stock would be luxury intercity trains with locomotives 5 times as powerful as IC 225s.

Master plan phase 2: convert London buses into London monorails.

Then I take over the world.

In all seriousness though, I think the most outrageous plan would be HS2, as I really don't think we need it, it costs too much and the fares would be outrageously expensive.

 

[Manchester77]

In all seriousness though, I think the most outrageous plan would be HS2, as I really don't think we need it, it costs too much and the fares would be outrageously expensive.

[OFFTOPIC]
What do you propose we do when the WCML is full because HS2 wasn't built?
[/OFFTPOIC]

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How about this...?

Relay the Windermere branch as double track profiled for higher speeds, and extend it over a viaduct across the lake (built from local stone and using victorian techniques!). From there, the line passes a local halt to serve Hawkshead (connected to Coniston by a cable-car link!). The line then curves slightly to the North and tunnels under the Northern face of Seethwaite Tarn, emerging to follow the valley to the coast. Another station at the village of Eskdale serves as a junction to a curve towards Barrow which joins the coastal route at Ravenglass having followed the course of the narrow gauge R&ELR. The North curve could then head straight to the coast, joining the existing line at Seascale... Or, follow the A595 (with stations at Gosforth, Sellafield East and Egremont, before joining the coast line South of Whitehaven.

The route would of course be wired, and served by pairs of 3-car EMUs with plenty of space for luggage & bikes on locals (all-stations) Lancaster-Oxenholme-Windermere-Eskdale (divide)-Barrow/Workington.
In addition, 3-4 services per day using pairs of 'baby Pendos' would run Euston-MKC-Brum-Crewe-Warrington/Wigan-Preston-Lancaster-Oxenholme-Kendal-Windermere (divide)-Barrow/Workington-Carlisle.

 

[PR1Berske]

[OFFTOPIC]
What do you propose we do when the WCML is full because HS2 wasn't built?
[/OFFTPOIC]

Logical fallacy. WCML might not get full just as a direct result of HS2 not being built. You're attempting to beg the question. It doesn't follow that one will result in the other.

 

[D365]

Logical fallacy. WCML might not get full just as a direct result of HS2 not being built. You're attempting to beg the question. It doesn't follow that one will result in the other.

But the point stands that sometime in the future we are not going to be able to squeeze more capacity out of the WCML and other railways without further costly and disruptive upgrades, which will not provide as much capacity as a modern high-speed line built from scratch.

 

[PR1Berske]

But the point stands that sometime in the future we are not going to be able to squeeze more capacity out of the WCML and other railways without further costly and disruptive upgrades, which will not provide as much capacity as a modern high-speed line built from scratch.

But we're not building new capacity. We're building a £80bn London-Birmingham shuttle bus, effectively.

Spend a bit of that money on existing lines, to get the same result. It really is that obvious.