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Our two electrification systems

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TheJRB

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Interesting question: if it weren't for the third-rail 100 mph limits, which bits of the south would be suitable for 110 or even 125 running? (In fact 125mph units already work the SWML, of course, but the limits are 100.)
The only stretch I can think of locally is the Ashford to Tonbridge line which is so incredibly straight that perhaps the speed limit could be increased but as it is with trains stopping at all stations, it would be pointless. Although with the Tonbridge to Ashford stretch increased to say 125 mph, a fast service (perhaps calling at Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross) would render the journey time difference between Ashford to Charing Cross (via SEML) and St Pancras (via HS1) negligible.

What speeds did or do the Class 395 do over DC?
And On the old channel tunnel route from Waterloo?

As far as I know 395s follow the line speed on NR lines, so probably around the same speed as the 375s and have never exceeded it.
 
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HSTEd

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And how much would all this cost?

750V might not be the optimum system but its considerably better than no system at all.
 

eMeS

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If we used 25kvac on third rail conductors, could it allow higher speed running (and less wires falling down) than current ohle?

What type and size of insulator are you proposing? How would you deal with tracking? And how would you deal with the minimum separation issue?
 

WatcherZero

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And how much would all this cost?

750V might not be the optimum system but its considerably better than no system at all.

NR are proposing to replace it at the end of its life in the normal renewal process where it would be ripped out and replaced anyway. It even has the advantage you could install the wires before removing the rails.
 

starrymarkb

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Nope, 108 is the world record. And I mean world.

Officially Yes... Unofficially a 4 Rep was used on high speed demonstrations pre Eurostar and managed 117mph (measured by Radar) without timing gear it couldn't be validated as a record.

Richard Catlow said:
In the build up to the Eurostar build, Alsthom engineers and SNCF were
sceptical about the ability to achieve satisfactory current collection
from the third rail so we arranged an overhauled 4 REP with maximum
diameter whelsets to go flat out between Tonbridge and Ashford in a
night time possession. The result was entertaining to say the least.
The speedo was off the clock (100 mph +) and a radar gun at
Staplehurst clocked us at 117 MPH. Ride was bloody awful and I'm sure
that had the straight been longer we could have cracked 120MPH. This
sort of performance is why 4 REP's were never supposed to run alone,
always with one or more TC's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought the 108 mph was the 442??

Certainly Wikipedia seems to think so and I remember the record being broken soon after the Wessex Electrics started running on the SWML back in the late Eighties.

Unless it was subsequently broken again when the 444s were introduced but I think that unlikely what with the modern concern for 'ealth and safety.

Electrostars and Desiros will have done 110mph in order to be passed at 100mph - a 10% overspeed must be demonstrated. Again to be a record there would have to be verification.
 

HSTEd

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NR are proposing to replace it at the end of its life in the normal renewal process where it would be ripped out and replaced anyway. It even has the advantage you could install the wires before removing the rails.

Wouldnt that require signalling work to accept dual electrification over every route to be converted?
Which would cost a fortune, since these things dont tend to renewed at the same time in many cases.
 

Old Timer

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If we used 25kvac on third rail conductors, could it allow higher speed running (and less wires falling down) than current ohle?
There is no way you are ever going to have any voltage like that at ground level on a conductor rail system.

You can forget any form of third rail system that does not have some form of protection from contact by people ever being approved again.
 

HSTEd

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There is no way you are ever going to have any voltage like that at ground level on a conductor rail system.

You can forget any form of third rail system that does not have some form of protection from contact by people ever being approved again.

Do fences count?
 

WatcherZero

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Wouldnt that require signalling work to accept dual electrification over every route to be converted?
Which would cost a fortune, since these things dont tend to renewed at the same time in many cases.

No the idea NR has is you have a line which needs renewing, you install the overhead (but dont energise) along the whole line in one go then you in phases gradually switch over stretches of three or so stations at a time using mostly overnight working. The wires then gradually work they way in to London from the fringes being operated by dual voltage stock. This avoids the need for several week/month line closures to replace the 3rd rail or signalling all in one go. You have the benefit of redundancy while working.
 

yorksrob

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Out of interest, Approx how long does it take for third rail infrastructure to wear out - eg, the rail itself, sub-station equipment, cabling etc ?
 

HSTEd

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No the idea NR has is you have a line which needs renewing, you install the overhead (but dont energise) along the whole line in one go then you in phases gradually switch over stretches of three or so stations at a time using mostly overnight working. The wires then gradually work they way in to London from the fringes being operated by dual voltage stock. This avoids the need for several week/month line closures to replace the 3rd rail or signalling all in one go. You have the benefit of redundancy while working.

But unless you are going to do massive resignalling in stages you still need to fit signalling equipment that will work with both systems. That is where it becomes expensive.
AC hardened track circuits and the like.
 

WatcherZero

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Yes but the signalling needs replacing too, so its cheaper to switch when the signalling and rails need to be replaced and just such a convergance is approaching. in about 5-10 years time. You build the second system side by side with the first and switch off the first when the second is ready, they dont need to insulate the existing signalling as the wires wont be energised while its in operation.
 

DXMachina

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Speaking as an accountant... most investment decisions are based on pay-off over period by contrasting the install cost to the financial savings/revenues

Building expensive overhead lines that wouldnt initially be used would take rather more careful project management - as the finance team would be taking a jaundiced look at the interest costs / cashflow costs of the works accruing for however many years until resulting savings could reliably be identified and accounted for.
 

MK Tom

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I don't think wiring existing lines on a one-by-one basis as they come up for renewal makes sense - at least not without every EMU in the land being dual voltage. What I was thinking more is the electrification of lines like Reading-Gatwick and Waterloo-Exeter - that would create major inroads into third rail territory which could then be extended out onto other lines in a way that makes sense operationally.
 

swt_passenger

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I don't think wiring existing lines on a one-by-one basis as they come up for renewal makes sense - at least not without every EMU in the land being dual voltage. What I was thinking more is the electrification of lines like Reading-Gatwick...

The difficulty with Reading - Gatwick is that a reasonable proportion is already fitted with third rail... It would be interesting if anyone has the exact mileages...
 

Donny Dave

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Speaking as an accountant... most investment decisions are based on pay-off over period by contrasting the install cost to the financial savings/revenues

Building expensive overhead lines that wouldnt initially be used would take rather more careful project management - as the finance team would be taking a jaundiced look at the interest costs / cashflow costs of the works accruing for however many years until resulting savings could reliably be identified and accounted for.

On the flip side though, once the OHLE is installed, and everything is using it, you then have several thousand tonnes of scrap metal, that will help pay for part of the scheme ....
 

HSTEd

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Wouldnt requiring all trains operating over these lines to be operationally dual voltage (ie. have working AC and DC traction systems) increase the maintenance burden significantly?

Additionally, the capital spend that this would take would be politically unacceptable while everyone else is denied funding for electrification on schemes with positive business cases or others with high BCRs.
(Midland Main Line, I am looking at you)

Reading-Bournemouth is a better example of where 25kV could be installed than Reading-Gatwick, which along with the Ore-Ashford line would be third rail in any reasonable world.

Additionally, why is NR so obsessed with having only a single traction system?
Dual voltage trains are sufficiently cheap these days that it makse little difference in the price of new stock (Thanks largely to the advent of fancy power electronics) and the limited number of possibly journies between the two systems makes the current maintenance burden rather small. Numerous other railways seem to make do with multiple systems.
 
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tbtc

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Wouldnt requiring all trains operating over these lines to be operationally dual voltage (ie. have working AC and DC traction systems) increase the maintenance burden significantly?

Most new Third Rail EMUs are built with Pantograph Wells etc, so that they can be easily converted.

Having just one type of EMU (overhead wire) would simplify things, long term - look at the "unwanted" 508s or 460s
 

WatcherZero

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Ok to address the points.

Wouldnt requiring all trains operating over these lines to be operationally dual voltage (ie. have working AC and DC traction systems) increase the maintenance burden significantly?

The lines would only be hybrid for a year or two allowing stock to be cycled, theres an abundance of dual voltage rolling stock in the south.

Additionally, the capital spend that this would take would be politically unacceptable while everyone else is denied funding for electrification on schemes with positive business cases or others with high BCRs.

Would be funded from savings in maintenence and electricity supply, if the trains are consuming 20% less electricity a year (as they would switched from 3rd rail to OHLE) these would mount up quite quickly. The renewals also have to take place one way or another and theres an existing budget for refurbishments of infrastructure.

Additionally, why is NR so obsessed with having only a single traction system?
Because its saves money in procurement, maintenence and training. For example a metaphor might be in schools, they have black boards and white boards. One requires a supply of chalk and to be chemically cleaned every couple of years, the other requires a supply of pens and a different type of cleaning process. The school would save money if it standardised and only had to buy chalk or only had to buy pens rather than being forced to keep a supply of both.

Dual voltage trains are sufficiently cheap these days that it makse little difference in the price of new stock (Thanks largely to the advent of fancy power electronics) and the limited number of possibly journies between the two systems makes the current maintenance burden rather small.

Correct it doesnt make much difference in rolling stock procurement but the infrastructure to maintain the substations, rails, etc is completley different. The 3rd rail system has also hit a technological barrier, it has a limited ability to transmit power to vehicles along the line due to the low voltage. This has led to problems where theres not enough juice in heavy traffic areas, the trains are also getting longer and faster and the only solution is to keep building more substations closer together which is highly inefficent. The 3rd rail system also precludes trains on the lines in future operating at 110 or 125mph speeds.

Numerous other railways seem to make do with multiple systems.
In most countries there are multiple overhead voltages (15kv, 25kv, 1500v DC, 3000v DC, 750v DC) rather than differing transmission systems, these countries are also standardising and phasing out the less common electrification systems like 15kv and 1500v so that trains can operate across Europe more freely.
 
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HSTEd

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Because its saves money in procurement, maintenence and training. For example a metaphor might be in schools, they have black boards and white boards. One requires a supply of chalk and to be chemically cleaned every couple of years, the other requires a supply of pens and a different type of cleaning process. The school would save money if it standardised and only had to buy chalk or only had to buy pens rather than being forced to keep a supply of both.
There is also the question about areas where the employment of overhead wiring is impractical, for instance the Watford DC lines, the Northern City Line and I imagine parts of Merseyrail.
If you do not replace these areas you loose many of the benefits of conversion with regards to parts standardisation as you would have to maintain seperate stocks of parts for these areas anyway.

The lines would only be hybrid for a year or two allowing stock to be cycled, theres an abundance of dual voltage rolling stock in the south.
You seem to be assuming you can somehow obtain the elimination of the third rail supply within a "year or two", in order to avoid the nightmare that would be a dual signalling Clapham Junction it is likely you would have to convert the main lines out of Victoria and Waterloo simultaneously, which accounts for the bulk of the traffic on the Southern Region I would imagine.

Having main line trains switch power on busy main line routes in the South would be potentially disasterous as a train that suffers a failure of switchover could cause massive delays, which means the switchover and resignalling would have to be done in a single massive campaign, especially as any switchover points would be expensively dual signalled even if was only the break between the systems for a few days.

Then there is the hardening to the South Easts power supply that would be required to cope with the massive unbalanced traction loads required by an AC supply system as compared to a 750V system that can draw from all three utility phases equally.

Oh andt he fact that all the electrification staff in the Southern Region and merseyrail would have to be massively retrained to deal with the new system with the attendant difficulties.

This conversion would have to be done at once or not at all to avoid all sorts of horrific expenses associated with partial conversion.
In the end Im not convinced by the business case as compared to spending the capital in other areas with greater benefits (such as the MML).

Additionally the entire electrification system is unlikely to be wearing out at once, so you would have to scrap parts of it ahead of others and have temporary switchover points rather than simply doing it all at once unless you want to scrap vast areas early and thus write off the remaining life of the system with all the attendant increases in track access charges.

In most countries there are multiple overhead voltages (15kv, 25kv, 1500v DC, 3000v DC, 750v DC) rather than differing transmission systems, these countries are also standardising and phasing out the less common electrification systems like 15kv and 1500v so that trains can operate across Europe more freely.

I was also referring to the New York area where they have at alast count, 5 transmission systems in operation: 25kV 60Hz, 12kV 25Hz, 750V top contact, 750V bottom contact and 600V top contact.

The 3rd rail system also precludes trains on the lines in future operating at 110 or 125mph speeds.

As has been stated above, there are very few areas where running at 110mph or 125mph would be practical due to the close station spacings and the high stop frequency of most services, additionally running trains at 125mph instead of 100mph would erase your 20% total energy saving due to increased air resistance.
 

WatcherZero

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But generate 25% time savings?

Your refusing to accept that the 3rd rail network in the south has come to the end of its life and can be replaced at no extra cost. The MML however had been passed over for electrification in favour of West Coast improvements, the Great Western, Lancashire Triangle and now Transpennine electrifications.

I was also referring to the New York area where they have at alast count, 5 transmission systems in operation: 25kV 60Hz, 12kV 25Hz, 750V top contact, 750V bottom contact and 600V top contact.

One a Subway, one a Light Rail network confined to an island, one another light railway. That leaves four systems used by mainline trains, 650v under rail, 650v top rail, 12.5kv and 25kv. The M8 being introduced since March is capable of operating on all four systems, previously they had stock that would only operate on couple of systems and used diesels for all line compatability. The different systems are each legacy systems in nearby states that originally operated in isolation but now benefit from services from New York. And yes work has been done to increase their compatability and one line is dual electrified with 12.5kv overhead and 650v third rail. The main reason they havent been standardised as you know is that theres no money in the US railroad system and the agency that operates all the New York services (MTA) has $31bn in debt and is losing $900m a year. (i.e. even worse financially than NR)
 
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HSTEd

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But generate 25% time savings?

Your refusing to accept that the 3rd rail network in the south has come to the end of its life and can be replaced at no extra cost. The MML however had been passed over for electrification in favour of West Coast improvements, the Great Western, Lancashire Triangle and now Transpennine electrifications.

If you can do the 25kV electrification work with no additional disruption or expense relative to the current 3rd rail being renewed as individual segments reach life expiry, and provide a fleet of dual voltage vehicles throughout the transistion with no additional expenditure of resources relative to the current programme of new vehicles and with no short forming of services (Since all existing pre privatisation stock that is likely to still be around in 5-10 years will have to be eliminated early, 442s and various others, likely at an upfront cost of several hundred million pounds) then I will support it.
 

ushawk

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3rd rail hasn't came to the end of its life and its working fine at the moment. We can see at the moment during this strong wind, OHL has its disadvantages where was 3rd rail has no problems (excluding trees on the line, which affect both 3rd rail and OHL).

There is no need to convert the power supply as it will be too expensive and there isnt really any point in it being done for a commuter network, which most of the South-East is.
 

ole man

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I get the impression that there are quite a few 25kv sceptics on here, 3rd rail is dated, there is no talk of upgrading any routes to 3rd rail, all upgraded routes such as GWML, MML and around Lancashire will be 25 kv OLE.
Wonder why that is?
 

WatcherZero

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How many disruptions were there due to the 100mph+ high winds in Northern England? None, how many due to the 165mph winds in Scotland? quite a few but mainly fallen trees. How many disruptions due to ice in the South? Entire network shut down for a month.
 

ushawk

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A month is an exaggeration, it was a couple of days. Network Rail have now introduced new "snow trains" which can de-ice the 3rd rail, although we are yet to see how these will work. In cold conditions, OHL can also be affected by icicles on the wires damaging pantographs.

And not all the winds in Scotland were 165mph - generally around 80/90mph - only slightly higher than the wind currently being experienced in the South.
 

HSTEd

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I get the impression that there are quite a few 25kv sceptics on here, 3rd rail is dated, there is no talk of upgrading any routes to 3rd rail, all upgraded routes such as GWML, MML and around Lancashire will be 25 kv OLE.
Wonder why that is?

There is a difference between supporting 25kV as the future standard for all electrification work with some very limited exceptions and supporting the complete elimination of functioning third rail equipment for marginal gains in performance and reliability.
 

Donny Dave

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There is a difference between supporting 25kV as the future standard for all electrification work with some very limited exceptions and supporting the complete elimination of functioning third rail equipment for marginal gains in performance and reliability.

And quite a huge saving in costs! In 3rd rail land, I've read there is a substation on average every 2 miles (confirmation please), where as on the ECML and WCML it's an average of 25 miles. (oleman, can you confirm please?)

That alone will save a huge amount as there will be a lot less duplication, plus the staff that are no longer required to maintain the excess substations can be re-deployed elsewhere.
 
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