Orpington SE depot

[ComUtoR]

£54,575

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[43066]

Class 375s calling at all stations between Rochester and Bromley South then via Catford to Victoria must surely count as metro. Particularly the stop at Denmark Hill!

Even the slowest mainliners don’t stop much after Bromley (even if it might feel like it!). The usual pattern for these might be all stations up to BMS, then fast to Denmark Hill via Catford.

That said, in terms of journey times from Bromley to Vic, there isn’t much in it between a “fast” via the loop, calling only at Denmark Hill, and an all shacks stopper via Kent House.

 

[Class2ldn]

£54,575

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Hmm nearly 10k behind TL next door and thats without us doing our Sundays.
Not good.

 

[43066]

Hmm nearly 10k behind TL next door and thats without us doing our Sundays.
Not good.

Imagine how they felt when they were driving those same TL services, with their Sundays inside! Good luck getting AL on a Sunday for any SE driver rostered a GTR job!

And they all thought (encouraged by management) that they’d be TUPED over to the GTR depot when it opened...

Not a happy ship!

 

[RedYellowGreen]

This would explain their seemingly constant recruitment of experienced and trainee drivers.

Perhaps this strategy suits their long term plan.

 

[43066]

This would explain their seemingly constant recruitment of experienced and trainee drivers.

Perhaps this strategy suits their long term plan.

No experienced driver would join an SE metro depot unless they were mad or desperate (or both). There are some good people there, but that kind of work for that kind of pay, simply doesn’t stack up when there are other options.

I don’t mean to pour cold water on it, it’s a good way to get a key and my god, if you can keep your nose clean there for a few years, you can do the job well and you‘ll be very transferable. Plus some of the deep Kent/coastal depots offer far better work (although sadly not better pay).

 

[Horizon22]

Ha - you might be surprised. Virtually everything on the loop is either GTR stoppers or SE mainliners. SE Metro hardly touch it (at least the Nunhead - Shortlands section). GPK don’t sign it at all, which is surprising as do Orpy-Vics and it’s a useful diversion.

Really?! Considering how often the diversion is used when there's a problem. Less so now TL have a more intensive service so harder to sneak in the diversions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2020 ==

Cheers, appreciate the insight. Obviously pro's & con's everywhere but good to get an account from people who actually work there & know what the reality is!

Yeah SE drivers do not get much love on these forums (and rightly so tbh). As @ComUtoR says staff turnover is high but why does that matter to the company when hundreds of people wanting to become trainee drivers?!

 

[Class2ldn]

Yep thats what I did, as a first company its fine for your key and actually the work I didn't really mind apart from the poppers lol.
Like you said some good people there but the local reps don't have a good reputation and things like terms and conditions were bad . Saving 2 days for Xmas and boxing day yet at TL we are given a lieu day and a days pay.
Yes there are better companies but as a starter company it's fine, use it as a stepping stone to move on, I think the company know most people do anyway.

 

[ComUtoR]

...staff turnover is high but why does that matter to the company when hundreds of people wanting to become trainee drivers?!

There are problems with high staff turnover and potentially SE will reach that point soon. Experience is being designed out and with that is coming higher incident rates. This is NOT a good thing. Also, at what point will the cost of training Drivers outweigh the importance of staff retention. Many many people join SE to simply "get their key" and then move on. SE has literally been training Drivers for other TOCs. With the now permanent advert for qualifieds maybe SE is realising that staff retention is important. How many TOCs don't take Trainees and typically take qualifieds.

I hear GTR will be taking on new Trainees in the new year (aparently they have been told not to take qualified Drivers). Personally I'd hold out for a position there. I don't like to work for the money but as mentioned upthread 10k difference is a LOT to consider.

Good luck to everyone heading to SE and I hope your journeys are successfull. Take the rough with the smooth and keep an open mind.

 

[RedYellowGreen]

OK, so the pay is circa £10k less than
other TOC's. So why is it that people hang around at SE? Do they really hang around? Are the rosters secretly much better than the others? Is the lifestyle amazing? Or Is it merely due to the fact that London houses 8 million people and there are simply enough candidates to take on the role?

 

[Horizon22]

There are problems with high staff turnover and potentially SE will reach that point soon. Experience is being designed out and with that is coming higher incident rates. This is NOT a good thing. Also, at what point will the cost of training Drivers outweigh the importance of staff retention. Many many people join SE to simply "get their key" and then move on. SE has literally been training Drivers for other TOCs. With the now permanent advert for qualifieds maybe SE is realising that staff retention is important. How many TOCs don't take Trainees and typically take qualifieds.

I hear GTR will be taking on new Trainees in the new year (aparently they have been told not to take qualified Drivers). Personally I'd hold out for a position there. I don't like to work for the money but as mentioned upthread 10k difference is a LOT to consider.

Good luck to everyone heading to SE and I hope your journeys are successfull. Take the rough with the smooth and keep an open mind.

I know WE know that its an issue but it seems the company to date has not been too fussed. As you say that may soon change once they realise the problems that may follow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2020 ==

OK, so the pay is circa £10k less than
other TOC's. So why is it that people hang around at SE? Do they really hang around? Are the rosters secretly much better than the others? Is the lifestyle amazing? Or Is it merely due to the fact that London houses 8 million people and there are simply enough candidates to take on the role?

Same reason people lots of people don't change jobs I guess; hassle of interview process, feel comfortable where they are etc. As we said above though there is high turnover so lots of people are moving on to GTR, SWR, LO etc.

 

[RedYellowGreen]

I know WE know that its an issue but it seems the company to date has not been too fussed. As you say that may soon change once they realise the problems that may follow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2020 ==



Same reason people lots of people don't change jobs I guess; hassle of interview process, feel comfortable where they are etc. As we said above though there is high turnover so lots of people are moving on to GTR, SWR, LO etc.

I get the first part of your post but according to the Aslef site (admittedly slightly out of date), SWR are paying £51k. Am I missing something here or am i looking at grossly outdated information?

 

[Horizon22]

I get the first part of your post but according to the Aslef site (admittedly slightly out of date), SWR are paying £51k. Am I missing something here or am i looking at grossly outdated information?

SWR just recently (well before Covid) got a large pay deal I believe.

 

[ComUtoR]

So why is it that people hang around at SE? Do they really hang around?

Location, location, location.


Most of the Drivers who are leaving are at Vic/Cross as they have significant mobility between TOCs. Others from the Metro depots have no interest in staying and as they are of the younger end of the spectrum they simply move house 'tup Norf or have long term plans elsewhere. There are also cases where Drivers join with fake addresses just to get a position at their "local" depot with the sole intention of moving on in a couple of years.

GTR is interesting because they have just moved in. Orpington/Ashford/Gillingham. There has been movement to those depots but there may/may not be local agreements between SE/GTR.

Those that live on the network simply have no choice to work elsewhere. Remember there is a standard rule that says you need to live within X miles or within 1hr of your chosen depot. When it comes to TOC employment, location is very very significant. With SE being pretty much the only game in town, they have rested on their laurels. Now GTR and MTR are on their doorstep, the ad for qualifieds has gone up and turnover has become more of an issue now that there is competition on their doorstep.

*edited for terrible typing

 

[Evolution]

As others have said this place is just a training school for neighbouring TOC’s, it’s one of them places you go to for a few years, get a key and get out. Unless of course, your idea of fun is accelerating up to 50mph (on preliminary caution) and then putting it into step 2 for your 100th stop of the day. Rinse and repeat.

Very intense DOO work, driving clapped out old Networkers.

It’s the south’s answer to the infamous Northern “triangle” out of Leeds. Albeit they have guards and better traction.

 

[whoosh]

I get the first part of your post but according to the Aslef site (admittedly slightly out of date), SWR are paying £51k. Am I missing something here or am i looking at grossly outdated information?

I don't work there but I know SWR have a 4 year deal starting from last year, which was finally agreed early this year. A location allowance and retention allowance push things up a lot for Waterloo, Wimbledon Park and Clapham (which I think is a new depot) which are the tier 1 depots. Looks like a step in the right direction to retain drivers as Waterloo was a staggering 39 drivers short earlier this year.

(The basic rate for 2021 and 2022 is 65k and 67k or RPI if it's greater. The regional allowance and retention allowance for 2021 and 2022 will be February's RPI for that year and are assumed to be 3.1% in the table, so could be different in reality.)

"That's a big payrise!"

Yes. But there are changes to terms and conditions. I haven't seen the 17 page document which details the productivity changes which were agreed in the negotiations and form part of the deal.

 

[DA1]

I’ve been lucky enough to be offered trainee positions at both (SWR and SE) however for me in my current position the pros outweigh the cons in favour of SE, which may seem a surprise to some.

A 5 minute walk to my chosen depot. I already work for SE and I quite often use the free travel benefits.

Now whilst the money and new rolling stock seem extremely appealing at SWR, the hour commute via another TOC (at my expense) or driving/night bus certainly did not nor did commuting nearly 2 hours a day each way for training.

I’m only young so still (hopefully) have many years of clean driving ahead of me then like many have said above, options are wide open.

 

[PringlePopper1]

First and foremost, a very weak Company Council.

Secondly, they are very far behind the curve. Going on numbers alone it needs a good 10% rise in pay to catch up with other London based TOCs. 10% in this climate ? or even in future ones ? That is a LOT of ground to recover. Even if you went 1% above local TOC rises it will still take years to catch up. Nobody at SE believes ASLEF will negotiate a 10% pay rise. Not now or in any climate.

Thirdly, there is little to give away. It has already been bought and paid for. SE could literally get rid of Guards at the stroke of a pen. DOO is already in SE Driver contracts. Sundays are in the week so they cant be given away either. Their leave is one of the worst and they already gave away any additional rates.

Staff turnover is very high and the company still do not care. The old addage about queues out the door to replace people is very true. Where you have staff retention issues you have a situation where those who are recent joiners tend to be happy with what they get because most have had a significant jump in wages and as they don't really know the ropes yet the impact to their lives is minimal. Who is gonna walk out a job they just got where they get paid significantly higher ?

Add Covid and the drop in passenger numbers and nobody is looking at any significant rises in the near or short term future.

We’ve just got an email from CC to say pay talks have resumed so we’ll have to see how it plays out I suppose. And although not the best way to look at it, any pay rise in this current climate is better than nothing which I think some grades may be looking at.
I agree that especially in Metroland a lot of people seem to do their 3 years and then go elsewhere, and good luck to them. But for some mainliners that isn’t always an option unless you massively change your life, look at Ramsgate - stuck out in the corner with zero options for any other TOC unless they heavily commute or move.

This whole thread started with the OP asking about an SE depot, imo it doesn’t matter what the depots really like as if you’re coming in off the street you won’t know any better for one, and secondly - you’re getting a key which will change your life - and you become a member of an exclusive club which makes the whole country an option for a brilliant career! I think many already qualified drivers forget this, and become so set in their ways, combined with the toxicity of the messroom - sometimes this forum is a place to behold haha.
Again, I’m also a driver for SE so I understand all that you’re saying and agree in a lot of ways. But none of knows what deals may or may not happen, and if DOO comes in or not etc but to you ‘Doorbit’ best of luck to you mate. Everyone says it, but keep your nose clean, crack on with your job - and the worlds ya oyster.

 

[RedYellowGreen]

I don't work there but I know SWR have a 4 year deal starting from last year, which was finally agreed early this year. A location allowance and retention allowance push things up a lot for Waterloo, Wimbledon Park and Clapham (which I think is a new depot) which are the tier 1 depots. Looks like a step in the right direction to retain drivers as Waterloo was a staggering 39 drivers short earlier this year.

(The basic rate for 2021 and 2022 is 65k and 67k or RPI if it's greater. The regional allowance and retention allowance for 2021 and 2022 will be February's RPI for that year and are assumed to be 3.1% in the table, so could be different in reality.)

"That's a big payrise!"

Yes. But there are changes to terms and conditions. I haven't seen the 17 page document which details the productivity changes which were agreed in the negotiations and form part of the deal.

View attachment 84594

Now that is very impressive deal and answers my confusion.

 

[Lewis H]

OK, so the pay is circa £10k less than
other TOC's. So why is it that people hang around at SE? Do they really hang around? Are the rosters secretly much better than the others? Is the lifestyle amazing? Or Is it merely due to the fact that London houses 8 million people and there are simply enough candidates to take on the role?

I would consider moving from my TOC to SE simply for pure convenience, for example, sometimes on an early turn, I cannot get parked at my depot or a nearby depot, which is hugely frustrating to then have to pay extortionate prices. Rostering is purely a game that some people know how to play, and some people don’t, obviously I don’t know about SE, but I assume it’s the same at every TOC!

The money has only recently changed at my TOC, we were actually paid less than the figure someone posted above, and now it’s gone up fairly significantly, thing is, you never know what’s round the corner, you’d like to think that the union/company council would be angling to bring the pay in line with other TOC’s because otherwise they’ll never have any employee retention!

 

[whoosh]

I’ve been lucky enough to be offered trainee positions at both (SWR and SE) however for me in my current position the pros outweigh the cons in favour of SE, which may seem a surprise to some.

A 5 minute walk to my chosen depot. I already work for SE and I quite often use the free travel benefits.

Now whilst the money and new rolling stock seem extremely appealing at SWR, the hour/hour & a half commute via another TOC (at my expense) or driving/night bus certainly did not nor did commuting nearly 2 hours a day each way for training.

I’m only young so still (hopefully) have many years of clean driving ahead of me then like many have said above, options are wide open.

Living nearby to work is worth a lot. You've weighed it all up and come up with what's right for you - like the driver mentioned in this post who likes his roster with the steady work pattern and is quite happy: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eastern-all-depots.204571/page-4#post-4618575

 

[DA1]

Living nearby to work is worth a lot. You've weighed it all up and come up with what's right for you - like the driver mentioned in this post who likes his roster with the steady work pattern and is quite happy: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eastern-all-depots.204571/page-4#post-4618575

Most definitely, that was the main thing for me at this point. Choosing SE over SWR changes from a potential max 12 hour day including travel to a potential max 9 1/2 hour day including walk. Unsure what my local roster is like but that’s a long time before I even need to think about that.

 

[Lewis H]

I’ve been lucky enough to be offered trainee positions at both (SWR and SE) however for me in my current position the pros outweigh the cons in favour of SE, which may seem a surprise to some.

A 5 minute walk to my chosen depot. I already work for SE and I quite often use the free travel benefits.

Now whilst the money and new rolling stock seem extremely appealing at SWR, the hour commute via another TOC (at my expense) or driving/night bus certainly did not nor did commuting nearly 2 hours a day each way for training.

I’m only young so still (hopefully) have many years of clean driving ahead of me then like many have said above, options are wide open.

Although it is still an expense, You can get a residential season ticket which costs me around £90 a month, travelling down to Basingstoke for Training would be a considerably long day though granted, luckily enough at the time I only lived 5 minutes walking from Waterloo!

 

[Economist]

I hear GTR will be taking on new Trainees in the new year (aparently they have been told not to take qualified Drivers).

Who told them not to take qualifieds? It seems quite a few of the better-paying TOCs have been told to take trainees over qualified drivers e.g. LNER. Is this a DfT thing to try and reduce costs by having companies avoiding training people twice and also competition between TOCs for drivers. If this is the case then surely ASLEF should be doing something about it.

 

[Horizon22]

Who told them not to take qualifieds? It seems quite a few of the better-paying TOCs have been told to take trainees over qualified drivers e.g. LNER. Is this a DfT thing to try and reduce costs by having companies avoiding training people twice and also competition between TOCs for drivers. If this is the case then surely ASLEF should be doing something about it.

Could be. Taking qualified just shifts the problem to another TOC (all under DfT ERMAs right now) - and it would probably be from SE if the depots required are in the right geographic area.

 

[RedYellowGreen]

Does anybody have any idea of the statistics regarding driver incidents? Are incidents more likely to happen to a newly qualified driver or the more experienced drivers?

Be really interested to know.

 

[Need2]

Could be. Taking qualified just shifts the problem to another TOC (all under DfT ERMAs right now) - and it would probably be from SE if the depots required are in the right geographic area.

I have been told (by our manager) that all Kent depots are full and are not taking anyone, including trainees for the foreseeable future.
There are only 2 depots with vacancies, Brighton and I’ve forgotten the other.

edit: The other depot was Cricklewood

 

[ComUtoR]

Is this a DfT thing to try and reduce costs by having companies avoiding training people twice and also competition between TOCs for drivers. If this is the case then surely ASLEF should be doing something about it.

I have heard that its being forced upon them and yes, the DfT are pushing for it. It is most likely one of many "railway rumors" but one that appears to have some merit. More than a few Drivers at our place are in regular contact with GTR HR

Does anybody have any idea of the statistics regarding driver incidents? Are incidents more likely to happen to a newly qualified driver or the more experienced drivers?

Be really interested to know.

You are at your highest risk as a new Driver. It then tapers off but then rises again shortly after. They even have a computer program that predicts when you are likely to have an incident :/