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Original GN Electrics timetable

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Miles Bown

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I wasn't able to find a previous thread on this, but I'm interested in what the original BR timetable looked like on the Northern City line, and the outer suburban services out of King's Cross after electrification in 1976. Am I correct in thinking that all 62 class 313s were originally destined for GN inner suburban services and that their deployment on the NLL came later? I imagine that BR had originally planned a much more intensive service which was eventually scaled back, allowing some units to be freed up. Also, what did the service pattern look like on the outer suburban routes in the era of the class 312s operating as far as Royston? Thank you for your insight!
 
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The exile

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Think the first place 313s went other than GN (which is where they were built for) was the GE (Clacton & Walton shuttles)
As for the 312s, they didn’t half seem posh! Lodged in the deep recesses of my brain is the station announcement at Stevenage: “Knebworf, Welwyn Norf, Welwyn Garden Ci’y, A’field, Po’ers Bar, Frinsby Park and Kings Cross” which I guess was the standard off peak stopping pattern on the Outer Suburban.
 
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JonathanH

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Am I correct in thinking that all 62 class 313s were originally destined for GN inner suburban services and that their deployment on the NLL came later?
There were 64. The first redeployment was four units to the North Essex Coast in 1987 which was short lived, then when that finished 17 units to the NLL, which fluctuated a bit for a while, but ultimately was fixed as 23 units at privatisation.
 

62484GlenLyon

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Is was much earlier 1987 when the 313s first started working the north Essex coast workings, although I don't know when it was but I had 313039 on the 13.06 Clacton to Colchester on 29th January 1983.
 

The exile

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Is was much earlier 1987 when the 313s first started working the north Essex coast workings, although I don't know when it was but I had 313039 on the 13.06 Clacton to Colchester on 29th January 1983.
I had a feeling some went almost from new.
 

Bishopstone

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I believe the use of 313s to Walton/Clacton covered two, short, discontinuous periods. Something like 82-83 then returning in 87-89. During the latter period, one of them demolished the station building at Walton.
 

Magdalia

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The full inner suburban service started in November 1976, though there had been a Drayton Park-Old Street shuttle from August 1976. It utilised all 64 of the class 313 fleet.

Off peak was 3tph Moorgate-Welwyn Garden City and 3tph Moorgate-Hertford North. The Welwyn Garden City trains did not call at Harringay and Hornsey.

Peak was 18tph from Moorgate calls north of Finsbury Park as below:

6tph Welwyn Garden City as off peak
3tph Welwyn Garden City fast Potters Bar and Hatfield only
3tph Hertford North fast to Palmers Green then Winchmore Hill, Gordon Hill and all stations
3tph all stations to Gordon Hill then Cuffley and Hertford North
3tph all stations to Gordon Hill

There was also 1tph all night DMU Kings Cross-Finsbury Park-Wood Green connecting with Wood Green-New Barnet-Hatfield-Welwyn Garden city and Wood Green-Enfield Chase-Gordon Hill-Hertford North EMUs. When the outer suburban electrification was completed the down Welwyn Garden City night service ran through from Kings Cross and the up Hertford North night service ran through to Kings Cross.

The full outer suburban service started in February 1978, though 0713 Royston/0801 Stevenage-Kings Cross and 1742/1746 Kings Cross-Royston/Stevenage had been EMU since October 1977. It utilised all 26 units in the class 312/0 fleet.

Off peak was 1tph fast Kings Cross-Finsbury Park-Stevenage-Hitchin-Letchworth-Royston and 2tph Kings Cross-Finsbury Park-Potters Bar-Hatfield and all stations to Royston. The peak didn't have a fixed pattern but roughly speaking there were 7 departures from Kings Cross between 1700 and 1800, with 2 of the fast trains missing Finsbury Park. In the peak the stoppers missed Potters Bar and Hatfield.

The last fasts were 1932 ex Royston and 2104 to Royston, evening was only the 2tph stoppers.
 

StephenHunter

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I wasn't able to find a previous thread on this, but I'm interested in what the original BR timetable looked like on the Northern City line, and the outer suburban services out of King's Cross after electrification in 1976. Am I correct in thinking that all 62 class 313s were originally destined for GN inner suburban services and that their deployment on the NLL came later? I imagine that BR had originally planned a much more intensive service which was eventually scaled back, allowing some units to be freed up. Also, what did the service pattern look like on the outer suburban routes in the era of the class 312s operating as far as Royston? Thank you for your insight!
Timetable World would have the relevant public timetables, but the site is currently down.
 

Gloster

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My notes for some research say:

2/1982 for driver-training and limited number of trains on Bedford-St Pancras.
9/1985 Euston/Broad Street/Liverpool St (from 9/1986)-Watford and Croxley
9/1986 GE section (until 4/1989), mostly Walton-on-the-Naze services
7/1988 Watford-St Albans
10/1989 North London Line
1994 West London Line and a few briefly used out of Liverpool Street
5/2010 Southern services
A couple went to Liverpool and Glasgow for testing in 1977 and 1978.
 

Helvellyn

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If not over-simplifying things it looks both the original inner and outer suburban timetables were planned around a 20-minute cycle, hence 3tph (or multiples there-of), whereas in the early 1980s (in response the the recession and BR having to tighten things up), it probably moved to a 30-minute cycle, or 2tph?
 

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One feature of the original GN electric timetable was regular-interval all-night services. From memory, I think these were:-
  • Hourly clock-face intervals every night of the week.
  • On both Hertford North and Welwyn G.C. branches.
  • Calling only at the more important intermediate stations.
  • Running to & from Kings Cross rather than Moorgate.
  • Only one of the hourly trains ran through to Kings Cross. The other branch was timed to connect into/out of the KGX train at either Hornsey or Wood Green (as Alexandra Palace was called at the time) where it terminated. Can't remember which branch did which, but suspect that it varied by direction of travel.
  • IIRC from a Modern Railways article of the time, these trains were designed to replace previous staff DMUs, but were now available to any regular punters wanting to travel.
I remember in May 1976 flicking through my pristine, new copy of the BR All Lines timetable and taking a first squiz at the brand-new GN electric timetable. "Only every hour!", I thought when I turned the page - until I realised the timetable started in the early hours of the morning.
 

Alfie1014

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This photograph of mine dated 01/10/81 shows 313008 at Colchester on a Clacton service.
1981 B&W. img0032.jpeg
 

ChiefPlanner

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There was published a hard back book called (amazingly) "Great Northern Electrics" - which was highly detailed on service levels etc. A good read which some lucky person might find via an internet search.

"Modern Railways" around this era did a very detailed report on the implementation , it was a bit challeng as passenger opening door facilities caused numerous issues.

It was quite an impressive plan , for which the fares were increased to represent the improved service / better quality.
 

Miles Bown

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Thank you all for your replies; very interesting information indeed.
The full inner suburban service started in November 1976, though there had been a Drayton Park-Old Street shuttle from August 1976. It utilised all 64 of the class 313 fleet.

Off peak was 3tph Moorgate-Welwyn Garden City and 3tph Moorgate-Hertford North. The Welwyn Garden City trains did not call at Harringay and Hornsey.

Peak was 18tph from Moorgate calls north of Finsbury Park as below:

6tph Welwyn Garden City as off peak
3tph Welwyn Garden City fast Potters Bar and Hatfield only
3tph Hertford North fast to Palmers Green then Winchmore Hill, Gordon Hill and all stations
3tph all stations to Gordon Hill then Cuffley and Hertford North
3tph all stations to Gordon Hill

There was also 1tph all night DMU Kings Cross-Finsbury Park-Wood Green connecting with Wood Green-New Barnet-Hatfield-Welwyn Garden city and Wood Green-Enfield Chase-Gordon Hill-Hertford North EMUs. When the outer suburban electrification was completed the down Welwyn Garden City night service ran through from Kings Cross and the up Hertford North night service ran through to Kings Cross.

The full outer suburban service started in February 1978, though 0713 Royston/0801 Stevenage-Kings Cross and 1742/1746 Kings Cross-Royston/Stevenage had been EMU since October 1977. It utilised all 26 units in the class 312/0 fleet.

Off peak was 1tph fast Kings Cross-Finsbury Park-Stevenage-Hitchin-Letchworth-Royston and 2tph Kings Cross-Finsbury Park-Potters Bar-Hatfield and all stations to Royston. The peak didn't have a fixed pattern but roughly speaking there were 7 departures from Kings Cross between 1700 and 1800, with 2 of the fast trains missing Finsbury Park. In the peak the stoppers missed Potters Bar and Hatfield.

The last fasts were 1932 ex Royston and 2104 to Royston, evening was only the 2tph stoppers.
I wasn't expecting the peak service to Moorgate to be so intensive - I'm surprised they could manage 18tph in the tunnels especially with such a restricted terminus. To think that even the off-peak service back then was more frequent than today! Were there no trains north of Hertford at the inception of the electric service? I suppose Watton-at-Stone wasn't re-opened until a bit later on, so the trains would've been moving fresh air around. The inclusion of a night service is interesting too - it really was intended as a metro-style operation.

As for the outers, the service pattern feels like an obvious predecessor to the well-established timetable that I knew growing up in the late 2000s. Am I right in thinking stations to Huntingdon were served by a shuttle from Hitchin? Peterborough I imagine was purely the domain of Intercity services from London at that time until electrification.
 

Andy R. A.

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This maybe of some interest. Some pages from 'The Book' we had at Finsbury Park. There was a limit on how many pages that can be uploaded, so not complete. This was the 81-82 timetable and I had compiled this just before I left the area for another job. The main changes from the previous few years were that the 313 Peak hour semi-fasts for Welwyn Garden City were rerouted to run into Kings Cross rather than Moorgate, and the Roystons had been retimed to run ten minutes earlier.02 Index.jpg03.jpg04.jpg05.jpg06.jpg07.jpg08.jpg09.jpg
 

jfollows

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Public timetable from 1977 attached. Table 24 for inner suburban, Table 25 for outer suburban.
Working timetable page from 1978-79 also attached. I’ve got the whole timetable of course, if there are specific questions.
The line to Royston wasn’t electrified until 1978. So the 1977 timetable shows through trains to Cambridge still.
 

Attachments

  • 1977 Table 24.pdf
    4 MB · Views: 33
  • YB extract 8 May 1978 to 13 May 1979.pdf
    431.1 KB · Views: 13
  • 1977 Table 25.pdf
    5 MB · Views: 25
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etr221

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I seem to recall that, in the original plan for the scheme, it was intended that frequency of the inner suburban sevices would be increased (possibly from 3 to 4tph), I don't remember the detail), once traffic had built up (which was the expectation), and the fleet size was specified based on this.
 

leytongabriel

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I'm sure there was time when BR tried a limited stop service on the Hertfood loop. You couldn't really say semi-fast but it left out some stations.
 

RUK

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Given that there are now 25 6-car Class 717s, which would be equivalent to 50 3-car Class 313s, does that imply that the time-table that the Class 717s were ordered for is still short of the originally-intended time-table, which required 64 3-car trains?
 
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bramling

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Given that there are now 25 6-car Class 717s, which would be equivalent to 50 3-car Class 313s, does that imply that the time-table that the Class 717s were ordered for is still short of the originally-intended time-table?

Yes very much so, both peak and off-peak. Utilisation of the 717 fleet is extraordinarily low.
 

Taunton

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The inclusion of a night service is interesting too - it really was intended as a metro-style operation.


I think the Eastern Region, more than others, tried to offer their necessary overnight staff trains as public services. They did likewise on the Chingford and GEML lines, and even early on Sunday mornings advertised their diesel substitute services up the Epping branch of the Central Line (an old LNER hangover) which ran on Sunday mornings before the Tube services started. Far fewer staff travelling late night/early morning had their own cars then - and there were far more staff.

If overnight electrification maintenance was required I believe they ran dmus instead on all these.
 

leytongabriel

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Given that there are now 25 6-car Class 717s, which would be equivalent to 50 3-car Class 313s, does that imply that the time-table that the Class 717s were ordered for is still short of the originally-intended time-table?
Especially as the originally intended timetable , never implemented, was every 15m up to both Hertford and WGC offering a 'tube-like frequency to Wood Green ( AP ) as it then was, Finsbury Park and the Moorgate line. It was reduced to every 20m before it started.
 

Dave W

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I'm sure there was time when BR tried a limited stop service on the Hertfood loop. You couldn't really say semi-fast but it left out some stations.
Presumably Grange Park which was still getting left out until fairly recently (last decade?) - I remember travelling up to Gordon Hill on a few that did that. Also Friday afternoon (because I could bunk off work early) where I went up and discharged duties up there, then got a peak "return" service that ran from the Bay at Gordon Hill and was first stop Ally Pally. Some of the older hands could really make the knackered old 313s sing down that stretch!
 

Magdalia

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I'm sure there was time when BR tried a limited stop service on the Hertfood loop. You couldn't really say semi-fast but it left out some stations.

The off peak limited stop Hertford service was an early Network SouthEast innovation, starting in May 1987. It ran from/to Kings Cross. At the time the off peak Moorgate services were 2tph to Welwyn and 2 tph to Hertford.

I seem to recall that, in the original plan for the scheme, it was intended that frequency of the inner suburban sevices would be increased (possibly from 3 to 4tph), I don't remember the detail), once traffic had built up (which was the expectation), and the fleet size was specified based on this.

It is the weekday peak service that drives the fleet requirement, not the off peak service.

The class 313 fleet was too big because the ability of Hornsey to deliver on fleet availability was under estimated.
 

WAB

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There has been talk of 4tph off-peak on each of the arms of the Great Northern inner suburbans for years, but any attempts have quickly failed due to a lack of traincrew and a lack of will.
 

Andy R. A.

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I think the Eastern Region, more than others, tried to offer their necessary overnight staff trains as public services. They did likewise on the Chingford and GEML lines, and even early on Sunday mornings advertised their diesel substitute services up the Epping branch of the Central Line (an old LNER hangover) which ran on Sunday mornings before the Tube services started. Far fewer staff travelling late night/early morning had their own cars then - and there were far more staff.

If overnight electrification maintenance was required I believe they ran dmus instead on all these.
One of my recollections of the Night service on the GN dated 4th October 1980 at Finsbury Park Saturday night/Sunday morning, and DMU substitutions.

There was Engineering Works between Wood Green and Welwyn Garden City overnight, and the Overhead Power was off. (Back then the Main Line trains were not affected, as Electrification was still limited to the Suburban services out as far as Hitchin and Royston).

As a result the local Night services had been revised. The Hertford services were running in and out of Kings Cross formed by 313 EMUs, with a DMU operating a shuttle between Wood Green and Welwyn Garden City. I had prepared some chalk board notices earlier in the week, and put these out next. Then it was on with my usual patrol round the station, turning off the non essential lighting as I went, and I was back to the Office around 0110. Tea and sandwich time, and listening to the radio to help pass the long hours of the night. I had wisely put the Office heaters on before I went over to the Downside earlier on. It was nice and warm in there by now, and I could hang up my overcoat for a while. At least the Fog had deadened the noise that usually carried up to the station from outside as the last of the Saturday Night revellers made their way home.

2R41 0116 Hertford to Kings Cross (our 0150) was cancelled, no Driver.

The DMU on the shuttle from Welwyn Garden City to Wood Green was extended to Kings Cross in its place, calling here at about 0155. It was a refurbished Met-Camm class 101 in revised white/blue stripe livery. I think these were Cambridge based units, which were normally used during the day on the Royston to Cambridge shuttles ?

The DMU returned on the 0225 from Kings Cross going to Welwyn Garden City, and the Hertford connection came out of Hornsey Depot to start from Wood Green, as was normal practice during the week. I had gone over to the Downside to advise any potential passengers, but it turned out we had no one waiting tonight. It was strange to have a DMU departure these days, and I stayed over there to watch it go. In common with most DMUs of the period it ‘farted’ its way out of the station leaving a thick exhaust which mixed in with the overnight fog. The twin tail lights on the DMU had soon quickly disappeared into the fog. (The customary Oil Tail Lamp had finally been done away with on most DMUs as they were refurbished, leaving the dual head/tail lights to be used instead).

2H53 0325 Kings Cross to Hertford (our 0331) was cancelled, no Driver. On this occasion the DMU hadn’t come up to Kings Cross to cover for it. Unusually three people had appeared for this train this morning at about 0315. I went over and told them there wouldn’t now be a train until 0431. They just accepted it, and turned round and went out again. I wondered where they were going ? I didn’t ask, and I suspected they hadn’t got tickets anyway.

2R44 0416 Hertford to Kings Cross (our 0450) was cancelled. (2H53 cancelled going down earlier). Once again the DMU hadn’t been extended forward to Kings Cross. Fortunately being the early hours of Sunday morning by now there was no one here waiting for it. The Engineering Work had been ‘given up’ early this morning at about 0500 instead of 0600, but the train service didn’t exactly get back to normal.

At about 0515 I went round and turned the Platform end Pole lights on, as it looked as if the Fog would be slow to clear again this morning. Visibility was still no further than the end of the platform buildings. I took in the blackboard notices as I went.

2V45 0525 Kings Cross to Welwyn G.C. (our 0531) was 44 minutes late, waiting Train crew at Kings Cross. My luck continued as there was no one here waiting to catch it. The return working of this only ran as far as Wood Green, and wouldn’t affect the service here.

2H55 0538 Wood Green to Hertford started back from Kings Cross with the unit having been utilised off of 2H53 which had been cancelled earlier. It was about 18 minutes late, running in 2V45’s timings from Kings Cross.
 

Magdalia

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It was a refurbished Met-Camm class 101 in revised white/blue stripe livery. I think these were Cambridge based units, which were normally used during the day on the Royston to Cambridge shuttles ?
Cambridge had 9 refurbished MetCam twins, they worked the Royston shuttle and the Hertford North-Hitchin-Huntingdon-Peterborough service. I had all 9 of them more than 100 times between Cambridge and Royston, the record kept by way of 5 bar gate tallies on one of those sheets of computer paper with the green stripes.
 
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