Ordsall Chord

[snowball]

A picture of the arch with the strand jacks removed, posted on Skyscrapercity by mileymc1:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=139093589&postcount=2352

 

[edwin_m]

Hello there to anybody who is reading this my name is dave and I've took a great interest in the Ordsall Cord project but I can't help but think that technically this wasn't the best way to connect the two stations and I also think that it isn't the first time they have been connected. I have found a route that already connects them but no longer exists but once did as a railway line and I can't understand why it was never considered as only the track was lifted and nothing as been built in place. Anybody willing to discuss this with me please contact me as if I'm wrong then please feel free to put me right but I'm sure I have a case.

If you're referring to the line that used to join between Ardwick and Piccadilly then this wouldn't really solve the problem.

The link isn't about connecting Victoria with Piccadilly. It's more to allow trains from the north and east to get to Manchester Airport without disrupting other train movements by crossing all the tracks on the approach to Piccadilly. Trains using the route I mentioned would still have to cross all those tracks.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Hello there to anybody who is reading this my name is dave and I've took a great interest in the Ordsall Cord project but I can't help but think that technically this wasn't the best way to connect the two stations and I also think that it isn't the first time they have been connected. I have found a route that already connects them but no longer exists but once did as a railway line and I can't understand why it was never considered as only the track was lifted and nothing as been built in place. Anybody willing to discuss this with me please contact me as if I'm wrong then please feel free to put me right but I'm sure I have a case.

As edwin_m has correctly stated, the point is to get trains from the North East and Leeds to Manchester, Manchester Airport and Liverpool without crossing the WCML at grade between Piccadilly and Slade Lane Junction, a junction which is massively constrained in terms of capacity. Reinstating the former L&Y line from Ancoats Junction to Ardwick Junction doesn't achieve any of this or relieve the issue at Ardwick. (There is also a major gap in the route and a deck missing, but that's just money.)

As to "never being considered", this option (along with various permutations of flyovers, double decking, grade-separation and alternative routes) was considered at length by Network Rail in the mid-2000s before the Chord was identified as the best overall solution.

In summary, you don't have a case.

 

[swt_passenger]

...I can't understand why it was never considered as only the track was lifted and nothing as been built in place. Anybody willing to discuss this with me please contact me as if I'm wrong then please feel free to put me right but I'm sure I have a case.

For background reading to support the above quick summary by "Joseph Locke", you'll find the options are compared in this archived NR report:

http://archive.nr.co.uk/6485_ManchesterHubRailStudy.pdf

I found this in a closed thread from 2012 on the Northern Hub plans.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60594

This isn't the first time someone has wrongly assumed nothing else was ever considered though, it has come up many times over the intervening period...

 

[absolutelymilk]

Hello there to anybody who is reading this my name is dave and I've took a great interest in the Ordsall Cord project but I can't help but think that technically this wasn't the best way to connect the two stations and I also think that it isn't the first time they have been connected. I have found a route that already connects them but no longer exists but once did as a railway line and I can't understand why it was never considered as only the track was lifted and nothing as been built in place. Anybody willing to discuss this with me please contact me as if I'm wrong then please feel free to put me right but I'm sure I have a case.

Hi David, could you give a bit more information about the route of this line?

 

[Scouseinmanc]

I think he's referring to the 'Blind Lane Curve' at Ardwick.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I think he's referring to the 'Blind Lane Curve' at Ardwick.

I've stuck a pin in the 200m gap ... https://goo.gl/maps/iFbdNvEq9KH2. The missing deck is at the Blind Lane end.

On Railmaponline its http://www.RailMapOnline.com/UKIEMap.php?lat=53.47489&lng=-2.21111

 

[Scouseinmanc]

I've stuck a pin in the 200m gap ... https://goo.gl/maps/iFbdNvEq9KH2. The missing deck is at the Blind Lane end.

On Railmaponline its http://www.RailMapOnline.com/UKIEMap.php?lat=53.47489&lng=-2.21111

Cheers Mr. Locke!

 

[PDG1949]

'The Wave' element of the NE end of the new bridge being manufactured at Severfields plc in Bolton

https://mobile.twitter.com/PeterMJenkins/status/842813488082903040/photo/1

 

[Geeves]

I was trying to work out from the description going on running lines rather than street names which are the bridges that are being replaced around Salford Central? There is another picture of some pretty substantial looking steel work on the twitter page that isn't for the actual chord but |I cant really see where they would go.

 

[Davidtaylor]

I think he's referring to the 'Blind Lane Curve' at Ardwick.

thank you for the info really appreciate it mate

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think he's referring to the 'Blind Lane Curve' at Ardwick.

Sounds similar to the words of one of the songs by the Beach Boys...

 

[Chrisyd]

Managed to get a few more photos on Thursday / Friday

The bridge without the strand jacks:
by Chris Davis, on Flickr

The bridge on Chapel Street which I believe is scheduled for replacement shortly:
by Chris Davis, on Flickr

View to the other end of the bridge, you can see new screw threads which I assume will be used with the replacement (as ever happy to be corrected):
by Chris Davis, on Flickr

Finally up at Salford Central, the new tracks are coming on through Platforms 3 & 4:
by Chris Davis, on Flickr

Track and new signals heading towards the chord:
by Chris Davis, on Flickr

Close up of the signals:
by Chris Davis, on Flickr

 

[snowball]

Perhaps Joseph or somebody could kindly clarify whether the part of Chapel Street bridge to be renewed includes all the structures under all the tracks, or if not, which ones it does include.

I had been assuming it was just the south-east part to be replaced, which carries the Chat Moss tracks, but in Chrisyd's second picture, one of the arched beams in the middle seems to be in bad condition, and the shiny new bolts in the next picture are also in the area of the arched beams.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Perhaps Joseph or somebody could kindly clarify whether the part of Chapel Street bridge to be renewed includes all the structures under all the tracks, or if not, which ones it does include.

I had been assuming it was just the south-east part to be replaced, which carries the Chat Moss tracks, but in Chrisyd's second picture, one of the arched beams in the middle seems to be in bad condition, and the shiny new bolts in the next picture are also in the area of the arched beams.

No, its the "middle" bit; the "north west" MVE deck and the "south east" extension on DSE are untouched.

This area is a nightmare for bridge and viaduct span numbers ...

 

[SodTheDrummer]

As edwin_m has correctly stated, the point is to get trains from the North East and Leeds to Manchester, Manchester Airport and Liverpool without crossing the WCML at grade between Piccadilly and Slade Lane Junction, a junction which is massively constrained in terms of capacity. Reinstating the former L&Y line from Ancoats Junction to Ardwick Junction doesn't achieve any of this or relieve the issue at Ardwick. (There is also a major gap in the route and a deck missing, but that's just money.)

Just out of interest, what would be your ideal 'money no object' solution? Can anything be done engineering wise in the junction area you mention (or others nearby) to improve things that wouldn't be signed off due to cost etc?

 

[adamedwards]

Picc Vic tunnel!

 

[SodTheDrummer]

Picc Vic tunnel!

Haha! yeah, or just rip it all up and start again! Imagine the possession times on that one!

 

[Senex]

Picc Vic tunnel!

Some serious re-planning would be needed there. It would have been good though -- and it was a Labour government that cancelled it, wasn't it (having let Newcastle and Liverpool get thier tunnels)?

 

[furnessvale]

Some serious re-planning would be needed there. It would have been good though -- and it was a Labour government that cancelled it, wasn't it (having let Newcastle and Liverpool get thier tunnels)?

A bit more complicated that that.

Manchester was well on the way to getting Picc-Vic when some bright spark on the council decided that what Manchester "really" needed was one of those ultra modern monorails, not an old fashioned railway. This caused several years delay.

By the time that bright spark had left, or been convinced that monorails are toys for Disneyland, all the available national money had been allocated elsewhere and Manchester had to look at trams.

 

[edwin_m]

The Ordsall Chord was first proposed (as the "Castlefield Curve") as a low-cost alternative to Picc-Vic. Late 70s I think.

 

[snowball]

No, its the "middle" bit; the "north west" MVE deck and the "south east" extension on DSE are untouched.

Thanks for that. It's going to be an interesting piece of keyhole surgery to replace the middle bit while leaving the outside ones in place!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Ordsall Chord was first proposed (as the "Castlefield Curve") as a low-cost alternative to Picc-Vic. Late 70s I think.

The "HS3" concept documents include a new and grander Pic-Vic option, surfacing at Miles Platting after circling under Manchester.
That was in the George Osborne era though.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Just out of interest, what would be your ideal 'money no object' solution? Can anything be done engineering wise in the junction area you mention (or others nearby) to improve things that wouldn't be signed off due to cost etc?

Did you mean to ask "what if money was no object"?

If so, the answer is immediate and obvious; remove all the junction conflicts by either a) re-routing services so they don't conflict (which may mean rebalancing the platform capacity of Piccadilly/Oxford Road vs. Salford Central/Vic, or b) grade separate all the junctions.

In the case of a) I'm not sure that's fully possible, not whilst there is a service on the CLC route, for instance. It would also (probably) cost you knocking the Nynex Arena down to widen Victoria and doing some considerable capacity upgrade/resignalling work on existing lines to support it.

As for b) that's grade separating Euxton, Lostock, Windsor Bridge North and South, Ordsall Lane, Castlefield, Ardwick, Guide Bridge, Heaton Norris, Edgeley, Cheadle Hulme, Kidsgrove, Crewe North, Winwick, Golborne, and possibly Slade Lane, plus numerous other minor re-instatements (and indeed instatements) such as 4-track Ashburys-Guide Bridge, 6-track Piccadilly to Slade Lane, 4-track Wigan NW to Balshaw Lane, 4-track Deansgate-Piccadilly and 4-track Adswood Viaduct.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Did you mean to ask "what if money was no object"?

If so, the answer is immediate and obvious; remove all the junction conflicts by either a) re-routing services so they don't conflict (which may mean rebalancing the platform capacity of Piccadilly/Oxford Road vs. Salford Central/Vic, or b) grade separate all the junctions.

In the case of a) I'm not sure that's fully possible, not whilst there is a service on the CLC route, for instance. It would also (probably) cost you knocking the Nynex Arena down to widen Victoria and doing some considerable capacity upgrade/resignalling work on existing lines to support it.

As for b) that's grade separating Euxton, Lostock, Windsor Bridge North and South, Ordsall Lane, Castlefield, Ardwick, Guide Bridge, Heaton Norris, Edgeley, Cheadle Hulme, Kidsgrove, Crewe North, Winwick, Golborne, and possibly Slade Lane, plus numerous other minor re-instatements (and indeed instatements) such as 4-track Ashburys-Guide Bridge, 6-track Piccadilly to Slade Lane, 4-track Wigan NW to Balshaw Lane, 4-track Deansgate-Piccadilly and 4-track Adswood Viaduct.

I am surprised that someone of your respected calibre would not have known that the arena next to Manchester Victoria was known as the NYNEX Arena in 1995, then in 1998 it became the MEN Arena/Manchester Evening News Arena until the company Phones 4U in 2012 had the arena name changed to reflect their interest which fell by the wayside when that company went into commercial problems and after that the current name of the Manchester Arena became the known arena name.

 

[SodTheDrummer]

Did you mean to ask "what if money was no object"?

If so, the answer is immediate and obvious; remove all the junction conflicts by either a) re-routing services so they don't conflict (which may mean rebalancing the platform capacity of Piccadilly/Oxford Road vs. Salford Central/Vic, or b) grade separate all the junctions.

In the case of a) I'm not sure that's fully possible, not whilst there is a service on the CLC route, for instance. It would also (probably) cost you knocking the Nynex Arena down to widen Victoria and doing some considerable capacity upgrade/resignalling work on existing lines to support it.

As for b) that's grade separating Euxton, Lostock, Windsor Bridge North and South, Ordsall Lane, Castlefield, Ardwick, Guide Bridge, Heaton Norris, Edgeley, Cheadle Hulme, Kidsgrove, Crewe North, Winwick, Golborne, and possibly Slade Lane, plus numerous other minor re-instatements (and indeed instatements) such as 4-track Ashburys-Guide Bridge, 6-track Piccadilly to Slade Lane, 4-track Wigan NW to Balshaw Lane, 4-track Deansgate-Piccadilly and 4-track Adswood Viaduct.

Superb. Can I be first in the queue with a sledgehammer when Arena demolition starts please?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I am surprised that someone of your respected calibre would not have known that the arena next to Manchester Victoria was known as the NYNEX Arena in 1995, then in 1998 it became the MEN Arena/Manchester Evening News Arena until the company Phones 4U in 2012 had the arena name changed to reflect their interest which fell by the wayside when that company went into commercial problems and after that the current name of the Manchester Arena became the known arena name.

Frankly m'dear, I don't give a damn. It was the Nynex when I first saw it and the Nynex it shall remain!

When it becomes the Wonga Bowl I shall howl with larfter.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Superb. Can I be first in the queue with a sledgehammer when Arena demolition starts please?

No, as there a great many Railwaymen still alive who objected vehemently to the idea in the first place, some of whom are still able to swing a sledge (or lay hands on some serious ordnance). I suspect you may want to hold back ... for your own safety at least.

 

[SodTheDrummer]

No, as there a great many Railwaymen still alive who objected vehemently to the idea in the first place, some of whom are still able to swing a sledge (or lay hands on some serious ordnance). I suspect you may want to hold back ... for your own safety at least.

I don't mind watching from a safe distance!

 

[rebmcr]

Just out of interest, what would be your ideal 'money no object' solution? Can anything be done engineering wise in the junction area you mention (or others nearby) to improve things that wouldn't be signed off due to cost etc?

I've always looked favourably on the double-deck option.