Ordsall Chord

[rebmcr]

Wouldn't a lot of journeys that people would make into Piccadilly and out of Victoria (or vice versa) where the origin or destination is to the west of Manchester be prohibited from using the chord on the basis of it would involve doubling back?

No. Doubling back is defined on the basis of a track route, not a cardinal direction.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I am surprised the limit into Piccadilly is only 20tph. I am assuming from your numbers that the limit for Victoria is 20tph

Unlike the Tonka-toy trams, heavy rail has signals, because the speed and weight of trains often means they cannot stop within the distance the driver can see. These signals have to be spaced efficiently and this is normally at intervals of (longest typical train ignoring freight)+a safety overlap. The Castlefield viaduct is nominally 30mph, which is 13m/s. A "typical train" on this line is six car (150m) making the above calculation about 330m.

However, for efficient operation we don't want a driver running on yellows and 150m isn't quite long enough to brake from 30mph anyway so we'd normally increase this - it needs to 340m for a passenger train (Appendix B of GK/RT0075) but for all trains its 630m. Given that "all trains" includes the 800m freights off Trafford Park, the signal spacing must minimise the effects of these. We can allow the 800m trains to double block so the minimum train spacing is 630m. At 30mph (13m/s) this gives a transit time of 48s.

You can't realistically plan a railway on this basis, as there is no "headroom" for delays, and there are three stations and two junctions in 1.5 miles, all of which can add time. The normal practice is to space the signals a bit further apart than the minimum and to add some "slack", between 25% and 100% for the transit time.

The actual signal spacing on the line is up to 500m, so the actual transit is 52s and the uplift of 100% gives 104s. Railway timetables are rounded up to the nearest 30s so that's 120s, but has no allowance for any stopping trains.

All passenger trains call at at least one station, so adding a minute to the planning headway to account for this is quite reasonable - hence 3 minutes.

 

[Norb]

No. Doubling back is defined on the basis of a track route, not a cardinal direction.

Into Piccadilly from the West involves going through Deansgate and Oxford Road, taking the Chord over to Victoria involves going back through those stations surely?
Likewise Into Victoria from the West involves Salford Central.
Not all trains stop at those three stations, so the suggestion of Change at Deansgate or Salford Central would not necessarily be possible.

 

[rebmcr]

Into Piccadilly from the West involves going through Deansgate and Oxford Road, taking the Chord over to Victoria involves going back through those stations surely?
Likewise Into Victoria from the West involves Salford Central.
Not all trains stop at those three stations, so the suggestion of Change at Deansgate or Salford Central would not necessarily be possible.

Sorry, for some reason I read 'West of Manchester' to mean 'From the WCML via Wilmslow'.

If both trains stopped at Deansgate I think you would have to change there, but as long as you are not trying to break journey at Piccadilly I don't think anyone would enforce it for such a niche interchange corner-case.

 

[notlob.divad]

Surely all will stop at Oxford road, which would be the shortest change over station. This should be encouraged as the changeover as platform 13 and 14 are a nightmare already. However if we are pedantic enough to be worried by people travelling 1 mile more in each direction to change at Piccadilly I would be seriously worried that people do not have better things to do.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Surely all will stop at Oxford road, which would be the shortest change over station. This should be encouraged as the changeover as platform 13 and 14 are a nightmare already. However if we are pedantic enough to be worried by people travelling 1 mile more in each direction to change at Piccadilly I would be seriously worried that people do not have better things to do.

DO you ever travel the route? As enni fule kno it is well worth travelling from Oxford Road to Picc. to catch a train that then goes west again, as it massively increases the chances of getting a seat (or recently, boarding at all).

 

[xotGD]

DO you ever travel the route? As enni fule kno it is well worth travelling from Oxford Road to Picc. to catch a train that then goes west again, as it massively increases the chances of getting a seat (or recently, boarding at all).

Changing at Piccadilly also means a cross platform change rather than hiking over the footbridge or risking getting stuck in a lift.

 

[snowball]

With Easter now six weeks away it may be a good time to mention that, according to this Rail Engineer article which was linked upthread,

http://www.railengineer.uk/2017/01/27/manchester-ordsall-chord/

, Chapel Street bridge is to be replaced at Easter. I assume this means only the Chat Moss line bridge, i.e. the nearest of the three or four contiguous structures here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4...4!1sfqiQSxfHD-cJwbs7s9_KCw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[Jonny]

Changing at Piccadilly also means a cross platform change rather than hiking over the footbridge or risking getting stuck in a lift.

Unless some eastbound trains were booked into Platform 3 on a regular basis.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Unless some eastbound trains were booked into Platform 3 on a regular basis.

For some reason, only the ATW service is scheduled into P3.
When you get off it, the platform PIS just flips over to an hour later...
It does get used more during disruption.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

DO you ever travel the route? As enni fule kno it is well worth travelling from Oxford Road to Picc. to catch a train that then goes west again, as it massively increases the chances of getting a seat (or recently, boarding at all).

When I was regularly commuting by train into Manchester I would often see people getting off at Oxford Road in a morning and on the platform at Piccadilly late afternoon for precisely that reason, seat from Picc, standing from Oxford Rd.

 

[Greybeard33]

For some reason, only the ATW service is scheduled into P3.
When you get off it, the platform PIS just flips over to an hour later...
It does get used more during disruption.

For passengers starting or ending their journey at Oxford Road, Platform 4 is more convenient than 3, because of the direct access from the station entrance. The footbridge and island would get more congested if more eastbound services used 3.

 

[Welshman]

DO you ever travel the route? As enni fule kno it is well worth travelling from Oxford Road to Picc. to catch a train that then goes west again, as it massively increases the chances of getting a seat (or recently, boarding at all).

I must confess that if I had time, I would do this in reverse in order to get a seat on EM's service from Manchester Piccadilly to Nottingham - ie slip down to Oxford Rd first

 

[PDG1949]

Great drone shot from SSC of new bridge now in place

https://s17.postimg.org/6e5mhusul/voice.jpg

 

[wilba]

Once the chord is up and running, what are the chances of a Todmorden curve service from Blackburn through Burnley being extended to the airport?
Would this be dependent on the 2 extra platforms at Piccadilly?
Presumably a service from Bradford would take priority.

Apologies if this has already been answered further back.

 

[snowball]

A view of the arch from the NP Twitter feed:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6UQR4FXMAABRyd.jpg

There are overnight closures of Trinity Way tonight and tomorrow night, 22:00-05:00, apparently to restore it to its original alignment.

 

[Greybeard33]

Once the chord is up and running, what are the chances of a Todmorden curve service from Blackburn through Burnley being extended to the airport?
Would this be dependent on the 2 extra platforms at Piccadilly?
Presumably a service from Bradford would take priority.

Apologies if this has already been answered further back.

Welcome to RailUK, wilba!

To summarise several pages of previous discussion, particularly posts #2049 & #2079 by lejog, the Bradford to Airport service is a commitment in the Northern franchise agreement (at least from Dec 2019), whereas the Blackburn/Burnley to Airport service is in the franchise agreement only as a proposal by Arriva Rail North, subject to Network Rail and industry agreement. So you are probably correct that the Bradford service will take priority.

I do not think anyone on here knows for sure whether or not the Blackburn to Airport service is dependent on the extra platforms at Piccadilly, but it would certainly be more difficult to squeeze it through the Oxford Road corridor without those platforms.

 

[ajdunlop]

I have been reading through some old posts from last year that attempted to work out the schedule for all the changes taking place as a result of the Ordsall Chord, electrification and new train availability. However a lot of things have changed since then like further delaying of North Transpennine electrification, more information about new trains being ready, potential delaying or cancellation of Piccadilly improvements.

Can we now have another go at trying to work out a more up to date timetable, at least for the next few iterations.

So my belief is that one of the 1st changes is that December 2017 Ordsall Chord will be available so one of the Northern services through Todmorden will extend to Oxford Road. Also TransPennine's Scarborough to Liverpool service will go via Victoria presumably meaning the new Northern to Liverpool via Warrington service will start.
I also believe Transpennine get the 1st of their loco hauled trains, will this be enough to introduce a service or do they need a number of them?

P.S. do people think this should be in a different thread or a new one?

 

[Greybeard33]

I have been reading through some old posts from last year that attempted to work out the schedule for all the changes taking place as a result of the Ordsall Chord, electrification and new train availability. However a lot of things have changed since then like further delaying of North Transpennine electrification, more information about new trains being ready, potential delaying or cancellation of Piccadilly improvements.

Can we now have another go at trying to work out a more up to date timetable, at least for the next few iterations.

So my belief is that one of the 1st changes is that December 2017 Ordsall Chord will be available so one of the Northern services through Todmorden will extend to Oxford Road. Also TransPennine's Scarborough to Liverpool service will go via Victoria presumably meaning the new Northern to Liverpool via Warrington service will start.
I also believe Transpennine get the 1st of their loco hauled trains, will this be enough to introduce a service or do they need a number of them?

P.S. do people think this should be in a different thread or a new one?

Aspects of these interrelated Northern Hub/electrification/new trains changes have been discussed in a number of other threads as well as this one. In the Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables forum there has been recent discussion in the thread Northern December 2017 Timetable Stakeholder consultation and the thread Scarborough TPE services from December 2017 Timetable change is still open.

Other open threads that have covered aspects of the changes include Northern Hub: Picc, Oxford Road, airport in this Infrastructure & Stations forum and Further delays to Northern and TPE improvements in the UK Railway Discussion forum.

TPE and Northern rolling stock delivery/cascade/refurbishment schedules have been discussed in a number of threads in the Traction & Rolling Stock forum.

Quite a lot of overlap between threads I'm afraid!

 

[lejog]

Platforms 13 and 14 are going to be really dire when the North Transpennine to Airport trains all go though there. They could really do with moving the waiting rooms to widen platforms. Here's hoping more people catching those at Oxford Road and Victoria spreads out the boarding and alighting enough to mitigate but may take a while for people to change their behaviour.

I have just noticed in their Franchise Agreement Northern have an obligation to improve dwell times at Piccadilly Platform 13/14:

the Franchisee shall by no later than 30 November 2017 improve:

(a)passenger circulation on such platforms by removing physical impediments to such circulation and (if this involves removal of existing waiting rooms or shelters) providing alternative facilities at a more suitable location to allow passengers to wait in reasonable comfort and sheltered from the elements;
(b)the provision of information to passengers on those platforms including by the provision of additional customer information screens and the provision of clear information to passengers about where to stand in order to catch their train; and
(c) (something redacted)

Presumably this may have now slipped 6 months.Does anyone have any ideas what the redacted improvement could be?

 

[Chrisyd]

A different angle on the bridge with all the Middlewood Locks cranes seen through it:
by Chris Davis, on Flickr

 

[PDG1949]

Excellent overhead aerial shot of new bridge from SSC:

https://s2.postimg.org/sk8hava5l/image.jpg

 

[Nean]

Had to make a trip to Salford the other day... you really get a sense of scale for the project driving under it on Trinity Way!

 

[snowball]

Pictures of the Chord and Salford Central posted yesterday on Skyscrapercity by Freel07:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=138975060&postcount=2336

 

[mikemcniven]

I myself took a little walk around the "Trinity Way loop" and here's my photos of progress of the Ordsall Curve. I have also posted these on Skyscrapercity.

Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Ordsall Curve 19/3/17 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

 

[Trackman]

Thanks for the great pics people.
I saw it for real the other day via the Windsor link then the layout made sense!

 

[snowball]

Press release

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/spotlight-easter-ordsall-chord/

Starting over the Easter weekend and continuing through April (Thursday 13 April to Monday 24 April), remodelling work will be taking place around Salford Central station. This will include widening an existing viaduct, strengthening structures, and demolishing and replacing Chapel Street bridge.

New Bailey Street bridge and a section of Chapel Street bridge will be strengthened. A crane will remove the old section of bridge and a new section will be driven into place by a Self-Propelled Modular Transporter (SPMT) – similar to the SPMT machines that transport NASA rockets.

New overhead line equipment and signalling will be installed, and track from Salford Central and Manchester Victoria will be realigned to accommodate the new layout. Middlewood viaduct is being widened, also to accommodate the new section of track.

How will passenger services be affected by the work at Easter?

To complete the work safely, some train services will be affected throughout the year coming in and out of Manchester Victoria between:

Early Thursday 13 April until the last service on bank holiday Monday 1 May
Every Sunday from May 7 until 2 July
Early Sunday 28 May until the last service on bank holiday 29 May
Early Saturday 8 and 15 July until the last service on Sunday 9 and 16 July
Sunday 20 and 27 August
Saturday 2, 9, 16, 23 and 30 September
Sunday 3, 10, 17, 24 September and 1 October

A replacement bus service will operate between Manchester Victoria and Salford Crescent from Friday 14 April to Sunday 16 April, and alternative routes will be open.

Passengers are advised to plan their journey ahead and check before they travel with www.nationalrail.co.uk

There will also be road closures in the area due to the extensive work:

Chapel Street – between New Bailey Street and Bury Street – Monday 10 April to Friday 28 April
Yorkshire Street – Friday 7 April to Friday 28 April
Johnson Street – Friday 7 April to Friday 28 April
Browncross Street and Quay Street – Friday 7 April to Friday 28 April.

There will be access to local businesses and nearby construction sites. Diversions will be in place.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Sorry, only just read this

I have just noticed in their Franchise Agreement Northern have an obligation to improve dwell times at Piccadilly Platform 13/14:


Presumably this may have now slipped 6 months.Does anyone have any ideas what the redacted improvement could be?

In the absence of other replies I would hazard a guess that it may be a suggestion that the current dispatch method could be streamlined. If I'm right it would not go down too well with traincrew or dispatchers and might explain why it has been redacted.

 

[Elecman]

Sorry, only just read this



In the absence of other replies I would hazard a guess that it may be a suggestion that the current dispatch method could be streamlined. If I'm right it would not go down too well with traincrew or dispatchers and might explain why it has been redacted.

Much more use of the ACME Thunderer?

 

[Davidtaylor]

Hello there to anybody who is reading this my name is dave and I've took a great interest in the Ordsall Cord project but I can't help but think that technically this wasn't the best way to connect the two stations and I also think that it isn't the first time they have been connected. I have found a route that already connects them but no longer exists but once did as a railway line and I can't understand why it was never considered as only the track was lifted and nothing as been built in place. Anybody willing to discuss this with me please contact me as if I'm wrong then please feel free to put me right but I'm sure I have a case.