Ordsall Chord

[lejog]

TPE are doing a very good job of hiding that service I have look at all kind of permutations of possibilities on RTT and cannot find any passenger service which matches that description.

It only becomes a mandatory weekly service in December. It certainly has been running in the recent years, although as has already been posted by faltskog36abba perhaps not in the last couple of months with all the diversions/cancellations on Sundays due to Ordsall Chord work and certainly not when Sunday services have been running via the Calder Valley.

 

[furnessvale]

I understand 9Fs wouldn't be allowed onto the network because of incompatibility with modern switches and crossings. However there is a preserved class 40 which has run on the main line (and may still be certified) so 1Co-Co1s are still a possibility.

9Fs would catch elevated check rails so I can understand that ban.

More to the point, if 1 in 8 fixed diamonds could be reintroduced, the cost savings compared to a switch diamond would make a total ban on preserved 1-Co-Co-1 locos neither here nor there.

 

[STANDISH]

Can anybody confirm that everything is finished on time with this project and all trains will running to a normal timetable tomorrow ?

 

[Starmill]

I'm afraid the less technical among us may not be familiar with the difference between a 'fixed diamond' and a '1 in 8'... and who is RAM? Sorry.

 

[furnessvale]

I'm afraid the less technical among us may not be familiar with the difference between a 'fixed diamond' and a '1 in 8'... and who is RAM? Sorry.

Sorry! I have no idea about RAM, it postdates my leaving the industry but possibly some sort of diagram of the proposed layout.

For the other things, it may help if I revert to model railway terminology at times.

1in 8 is the angle of the "frog" in a set of points or alternatively the angle of the diamond in a diamond crossing.

Prior to the 1-Co-Co-1 problem, a diamond without any moving parts could be at an angle of 1 in 8 or sharper. A finer angle, 1 in 8.5 and above, needed moveable point rails to close the gap and prevent wheels going down the wrong side of the crossing. This is called a switch diamond. Because of this, very many junctions were designed around a 1 in 8 angle to avoid the cost and complexity of switch diamonds.

Overnight the newly found ability of 1-Co-Co-1 bogies to go the wrong way on a 1 in 8 diamond changed all that. Fixed 1 in 8 diamonds had to go, either by converting to switch diamonds, tightening the angle to 1 in 7.5, or elimination of the diamond altogether by converting the junction to all single leads.

Each of these fixes had a cost and many junctions just did not have the room to do the work, hence the proliferation of single lead junctions which throttle the merging line down to a single track immediately before the junction causing operating difficulties. Getting those junctions back to true double track throughout can be expensive.

Hope that helps. Ask again if my explanation is as clear as mud!

Edited to add, if you are unsure about angles imagine a 1 in 8 as a Peco medium set of points and a 1 in 12 as a Peco large radius set of points.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm afraid the less technical among us may not be familiar with the difference between a 'fixed diamond' and a '1 in 8'... and who is RAM? Sorry.

I'm guessing RAM stands for Route Asset Manager, ie the person who will have to live with the new layout and maintain it long term.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

(Genuine question, having been away from the perway for some years)

1 in 8 fixed diamonds were banned because of the desire of the 1-Co bogie to go the wrong way. Elevated checks couldn't be fitted because of the flangeless driver on 9Fs.

Given that both of those have now gone, is the 1 in 8 allowed again? If not, has there ever been a review as to whether they could be readmitted to the fold?

Switch diamonds are still mandatory at 1 in 8 and flatter, but there are always exceptions. A straight over straight 1 in 8 fixed would be a lot easier to justify than a curve over curve one.

 

[Sox]

...For the other things, it may help if I revert to model railway terminology at times....

Thanks for this very informative posting.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Can anybody confirm that everything is finished on time with this project and all trains will running to a normal timetable tomorrow ?

I think so as I've just got off a train in Manchester Piccadilly and not heard of any major issues. Happy New Year everybody on here btw

 

[Mordac]

Yep, here's a press release from NR about the completion: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...-the-north-a-step-closer-after-christmas-work

The workforce worked around the clock to install:

3km of new overhead wiring
8 new sets of switches and crossings
1km of new track installed
9,000 tonnes of new ballast
along with lifting 500 tonnes of new steel in to place for two new bridges

 

[lineclear]

From the track construction standard:

Fixed obtuse crossings shall only be installed where:

a) the line speed is 105mph or less;
b) the angle of crossing is sharper than 1 in 8;
c) the cant on either route through the crossing does not exceed 100 mm
d) there is no negative cant on either route through the crossing; and
e) radius of either track is flatter than the minimum shown in table 26.

Any track radius through an obtuse crossing shall extend for a minimum of 8 m beyond each end of the crossing unit.

Raised check rails in obtuse-angle crossings shall not be used in slips or scissors crossovers in third or fourth rail electrified areas if they could foul collector shoes.

1 in 8 obtuse crossings installed with a similar flexure through alignment shall be provided with raised check rails. A switch diamond shall be provided if the raised check would foul third or fourth rail collector shoes.

1 in 8.69 obtuse crossings shall be installed with raised check rails. They shall only be used in NR60 E12.5 double junctions where the through alignment is either straight or contra-flexure. They shall only be used with the approval of the Head of Track.

 

[SodTheDrummer]

Excellent time lapse footage of Water Street works....

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/vision-to-transform-rail-travel-in-the-north-a-step-closer-after-christmas-work

 

[QueensCurve]

I'm afraid the less technical among us may not be familiar with the difference between a 'fixed diamond' and a '1 in 8'... and who is RAM? Sorry.

A fixed diamond is one like you might have on a model layout with 4 plain crossing (two normal and two obtuse).

A switch diamond is one that has switches working in concordance to eliminate the obtuse crossings. They don't seem to be in favour these days.

I think 1 in 8 refers to the angle of the crossing. Others will no doubt correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I think 1 in 8 refers to the angle of the crossing. Others will no doubt correct me if I am wrong.

The nominal angle of intersection of the two main lines.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All seemingly going well today at Ordsall Lane.
The new bi-di from Eccles is switched on.
OHLE is fully up as far as the Liverpool St bridge towards Salford Crescent, with the new signalling operational.
Signals prefix is MC (Manchester Central?).
At the point of deviation of the new chord, the new chord deck is in place but it's not built up enough to take a turnout from the main line.
At Lime St, a poster was already up saying the Manchester work was complete and thanks for cooperating.
Free bacon rolls at Birkenhead Central, on day 1 of the tunnel/loop works!

Edit:
Four pictures taken from a westbound train approaching Ordsall Lane Jn:
You can see where the chord route leaves the Castlefield viaduct (between the brown bridge sides), then the Irwell bridge deck, then the far end where it joins the Middlewood viaduct.
The gap in the chord deck is over Trinity Way.
Sorry about the quality, very poor light today.

 

[DJH1971]

All seemingly going well today at Ordsall Lane.
The new bi-di from Eccles is switched on.
OHLE is fully up as far as the Liverpool St bridge towards Salford Crescent, with the new signalling operational.
Signals prefix is MC (Manchester Central?).
At the point of deviation of the new chord, the new chord deck is in place but it's not built up enough to take a turnout from the main line.
At Lime St, a poster was already up saying the Manchester work was complete and thanks for cooperating.
Free bacon rolls at Birkenhead Central, on day 1 of the tunnel/loop works!

Edit:
Four pictures taken from a westbound train approaching Ordsall Lane Jn:
You can see where the chord route leaves the Castlefield viaduct (between the brown bridge sides), then the Irwell bridge deck, then the far end where it joins the Middlewood viaduct.
The gap in the chord deck is over Trinity Way.
Sorry about the quality, very poor light today.

Great pictures.

I take it the Chord will be wired too?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Great pictures.

I take it the Chord will be wired too?

It would be criminal if not - but further back on the thread it has indeed been confirmed that it will indeed be juiced up.

 

[Hophead]

It would be criminal if not - but further back on the thread it has indeed been confirmed that it will indeed be juiced up.

Although my question related to day one - and the conclusion was no more than "probably" (since no one here seems to know for definite, so we must assume).

And, if push came to shove, the OHLE would seem to be an obvious contender for a quick bit of descoping.

 

[Geeves]

All seemingly going well today at Ordsall Lane.
The new bi-di from Eccles is switched on.
OHLE is fully up as far as the Liverpool St bridge towards Salford Crescent, with the new signalling operational.
Signals prefix is MC (Manchester Central?).

Yes Manchester Central is the work station at the ROC for what was previously controlled by the Manchester North SCC (west panel) which included Victoria station east junction, west junction and Deal St Junctions along with Salford Central and the stone Terminal but now includes Ordsall Lane, so the work load has increased quite a bit over night! Manchester Oxford Rd (I think) has also moved to the ROC from Piccadilly SCC how ever it has lost Orsdall Lane on its patch.

I believe the Central work station will eventually control the Chord junctions aswell but not 100% on that definitely the Northern end anyway.

The Windsor link is also bi directional now too.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes Manchester Central is the work station at the ROC for what was previously controlled by the Manchester North SCC (west panel) which included Victoria station east junction, west junction and Deal St Junctions along with Salford Central and the stone Terminal but now includes Ordsall Lane, so the work load has increased quite a bit over night! Manchester Oxford Rd (I think) has also moved to the ROC from Piccadilly SCC how ever it has lost Orsdall Lane on its patch.

I believe the Central work station will eventually control the Chord junctions aswell but not 100% on that definitely the Northern end anyway.
The Windsor link is also bi directional now too.

The MC signals stretch east through Castlefield Jn past Deansgate but not quite to Oxford Road which remains MP.
Presumably MC also runs towards Old Trafford too on the CLC route.
Victoria is (I think) still MS - Manchester-Stalybridge?
Doesn't that continue round past Miles Platting to Philips Park?

 

[takno]

The MC signals stretch east through Castlefield Jn past Deansgate but not quite to Oxford Road which remains MP.
Presumably MC also runs towards Old Trafford too on the CLC route.
Victoria is (I think) still MS - Manchester-Stalybridge?
Doesn't that continue round past Miles Platting to Philips Park?

On https://traksy.uk/live/M+22+MNCRVIC+-21, I've got signalling switching from the M3 describer (which is the Manchester Central desk) to the M2 (Manchester North) desk just before Miles Platting as you come from Victoria. That doesn't always map perfectly to the signals on the ground though as ROCs tend to have quite long overlaps where signals report on both describers. I

It looks like Oxford Road has switched over as well, unless the station has actually been full of trains with *very* strange reporting numbers since christmas! Looks like I get to spend a fun afternoon resignalling the whole west side
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In case anybody has a signalling plan for this, I'm seeing a few changes with the switchover to MC from Piccadilly which I'd be keen to confirm:

- Salford Crescent is still controlled by Piccadilly, although it now doesn't connect to the remainder of the panel
- In addition to going bi-di and switching to MC, the Windsor link also appears to have gained a set of signals
- MP462 between Castlefield Jn and Deansgate has gone
- Deansgate is now bi-di on both platforms (it either it always have been or this is just an extension of the Windsor link work)

 

[Geeves]

It was bi directional between Piccadilly and Oxford Road but that ended at the junction just after Oxford road its self. Oxford Road has moved into the ROC, which I believe means Huyton, Victoria east and west and Oxford Road are now in there so its slowly eating more up. Not sure what will go next.

Signals at Victoria are still tabbed up as MN for the time being at least.

So does this mean Central work station includes Castlefield Junction too? Thats alot of work for one person!

 

[snowball]

Guess this is slightly off topic ( and possibly worthy of a thread of its own ), but what areas are now controlled from the Manchester ROC at Ashburys overall?

Aren't the ones in Geeves's post which you quote the only ones?

I think Huyton was the first.

 

[edwin_m]

And, if push came to shove, the OHLE would seem to be an obvious contender for a quick bit of descoping.

Once you allow for the run-off from the junctions both ends the saving would only be a handful of supports and a couple of hundred metres of wire. All the design changes to take it out would probably cost more than the savings in materials and installation.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Once you allow for the run-off from the junctions both ends the saving would only be a handful of supports and a couple of hundred metres of wire. All the design changes to take it out would probably cost more than the savings in materials and installation.

Succinctly put - it will get wired.

 

[deltic08]

On https://traksy.uk/live/M+22+MNCRVIC+-21, I've got signalling switching from the M3 describer (which is the Manchester Central desk) to the M2 (Manchester North) desk just before Miles Platting as you come from Victoria. That doesn't always map perfectly to the signals on the ground though as ROCs tend to have quite long overlaps where signals report on both describers. I

It looks like Oxford Road has switched over as well, unless the station has actually been full of trains with *very* strange reporting numbers since christmas! Looks like I get to spend a fun afternoon resignalling the whole west side
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In case anybody has a signalling plan for this, I'm seeing a few changes with the switchover to MC from Piccadilly which I'd be keen to confirm:

- Salford Crescent is still controlled by Piccadilly, although it now doesn't connect to the remainder of the panel
- In addition to going bi-di and switching to MC, the Windsor link also appears to have gained a set of signals
- MP462 between Castlefield Jn and Deansgate has gone
- Deansgate is now bi-di on both platforms (it either it always have been or this is just an extension of the Windsor link work)

Now this is becoming the main trans Pennine route once more between Manchester and Leeds, is anything going to be done to ease the 20mph curve at Miles Platting?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Now this is becoming the main trans Pennine route once more between Manchester and Leeds, is anything going to be done to ease the 20mph curve at Miles Platting?

Actually it's been 30mph at Miles Platting for a while.
Still 40/45/50 through Ashton though, and 25 into Stalybridge.

 

[CAF397]

The first signal gantry between Piccadilly and Oxford Road is controlled by Manchester ROC Oxford Road work station, that controls the Oxford Road lines upto and including Castlefield Jn, and then onto the CLC lines.

Manchester ROC Central work station then takes over from Castlefield Jn (exclusive) towards Eccles and Salford Crescent, where Eccles and Manchester Piccadilly SCC take over the respective lines.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The first signal gantry between Piccadilly and Oxford Road is controlled by Manchester ROC Oxford Road work station, that controls the Oxford Road lines upto and including Castlefield Jn, and then onto the CLC lines.
Manchester ROC Central work station then takes over from Castlefield Jn (exclusive) towards Eccles and Salford Crescent, where Eccles and Manchester Piccadilly SCC take over the respective lines.

What's confusing to the layman is that the Oxford Road and Salford Crescent signals are still plated MP, and Castlefield is plated MC.
I guess it is to do with whether they were renewed or not over Christmas.
All the new ones are MC, I think is a true statement.

 

[CAF397]

Just a clarification regarding the bi-directional signalling. For some inexplicable reason, the existing bi-di from Piccadilly to Oxford Road has not actually be extended westwards to Deansgate. You can still only actually leave Oxford Road signalled onto the Down Oxford Road, to the next signal between Oxford Road and Deansgate. Here you receive either a D or a U. D continues on the Down Oxford Road into Deansgate station, and U crosses onto the Up Oxford Road into Deansgate station.

There is no route from the Up Oxford Road to the CLC lines.

Quite why the opportunity to be signalled straight onto the Up Oxford Road from Oxford Road station wasn't taken only Network Rail know.